Window shopping to increase power of a 450....
Discussion
I'm stuck at the mother in laws and am therefore window shopping for my 450 Chim. The engine was rebuilt 2,000 miles ago so should be strong and it was fitted with a Stealth cam. Apart from that, it's all standard.
Brakes are in the process of being renewed, suspension was refreshed last month.
So, power.....
I think when the time comes I will just go for FI but if I chose to go NA, I could spend a bit here and there and add to it as I go along which means I could do it sooner.
For starters, how does this look and how much hp do you think it would give?
Stage III heads
http://www.v8developments.co.uk/products/heads/pha...
Or Stage IV heads
http://www.v8developments.co.uk/products/heads/dom...
The stage 3’s are £900 but the 4's are £1675. The 3's claim to flow enough for a maximum of 320hp and I won't be getting near that anyway so is the £775 difference better spent elsewhere.
Ported plenum, inlet manifold and trumpet base at just under £600
http://www.v8developments.co.uk/products/induction...
Alterntively ACT do an induction kit composing of super flare trumpets, enlarged plenum (71mm v V8D’s 72mm), Bosch AFM and a Tornado (best guess) chip.
http://www.actproducts.co.uk/shop/ik004-tornado-4-...
Anything else needed to help it breathe easier?
Comments most welcome.
Thanks.
EDIT - on further investigation I notice that I have linked to stage II heads above rather than stage III heads.
Brakes are in the process of being renewed, suspension was refreshed last month.
So, power.....
I think when the time comes I will just go for FI but if I chose to go NA, I could spend a bit here and there and add to it as I go along which means I could do it sooner.
For starters, how does this look and how much hp do you think it would give?
Stage III heads
http://www.v8developments.co.uk/products/heads/pha...
Or Stage IV heads
http://www.v8developments.co.uk/products/heads/dom...
The stage 3’s are £900 but the 4's are £1675. The 3's claim to flow enough for a maximum of 320hp and I won't be getting near that anyway so is the £775 difference better spent elsewhere.
Ported plenum, inlet manifold and trumpet base at just under £600
http://www.v8developments.co.uk/products/induction...
Alterntively ACT do an induction kit composing of super flare trumpets, enlarged plenum (71mm v V8D’s 72mm), Bosch AFM and a Tornado (best guess) chip.
http://www.actproducts.co.uk/shop/ik004-tornado-4-...
Anything else needed to help it breathe easier?
Comments most welcome.
Thanks.
EDIT - on further investigation I notice that I have linked to stage II heads above rather than stage III heads.
Edited by A900ss on Monday 4th November 18:48
I spent about £7000 changing my 4 litre into a very torquey 5 litre.
I would have spent less for the same power super or turbo charging it.
I would have spent even less if I had sold my 400 and bought a very sorted and tweaked 5 litre.
The market value is less than the cost of getting there.
On the plus side, I got exactly what I wanted and my car has a new engine. I love the way it drives and handles. But I met a guy a few months ago who had just bought a 12,000 mile 500, immaculate inside and out, decatted, as fast as mine, and for £5000 less than I had spent.
At the end of the day, the cheapest upgrade is buying an upgraded car.
I would have spent less for the same power super or turbo charging it.
I would have spent even less if I had sold my 400 and bought a very sorted and tweaked 5 litre.
The market value is less than the cost of getting there.
On the plus side, I got exactly what I wanted and my car has a new engine. I love the way it drives and handles. But I met a guy a few months ago who had just bought a 12,000 mile 500, immaculate inside and out, decatted, as fast as mine, and for £5000 less than I had spent.
At the end of the day, the cheapest upgrade is buying an upgraded car.
Don't know what your timescale is but I may be selling my ACT carbon fibre twin plenum next spring. It doesn't do a huge amount for bhp (typically around +8 bhp on a 450, which mine is). But it does a great deal for throttle response and suits a 450 better than the triple plenum from the same company. I've been very happy with it and would leave it on but...a supercharger beckons.
CHEF_GOLF said:
Mine has an mc1 cam, stage 3 heads (v8d), flared trumpets, s/s manifold all 3 cats out. Mark Addams chip. For usable power this I find this is an amazing set up. Lightens and balanced. Just need to fit a front splitter to keep her stable
Well I've go the splitter..... (And a Stealth). Quick question, what happens to the torque in a stage 3 car?
Does it lose out to a standard car in the low/mid rev band to a standard car or will it be better everywhere through the range?
I suspect there is no such thing as a 'free lunch' so to get the addition power at the top end, you lose torque/drivability below a certain number of revs.
Does it lose out to a standard car in the low/mid rev band to a standard car or will it be better everywhere through the range?
I suspect there is no such thing as a 'free lunch' so to get the addition power at the top end, you lose torque/drivability below a certain number of revs.
A900ss said:
Quick question, what happens to the torque in a stage 3 car?
Does it lose out to a standard car in the low/mid rev band to a standard car or will it be better everywhere through the range?
I suspect there is no such thing as a 'free lunch' so to get the addition power at the top end, you lose torque/drivability below a certain number of revs.
Better porting and bigger valves should give you more torque and top bhp as well as better response... Its the cam that moves the power up or down the rev rangeDoes it lose out to a standard car in the low/mid rev band to a standard car or will it be better everywhere through the range?
I suspect there is no such thing as a 'free lunch' so to get the addition power at the top end, you lose torque/drivability below a certain number of revs.
OleVix said:
Better porting and bigger valves should give you more torque and top bhp as well as better response... Its the cam that moves the power up or down the rev range
[Disclaimer!] As I understand it...The efficiency at which the fuel/air mix fills the cylinder depends on gas speed through the induction/heads - at the point a which you hit maximum gas speed, you have maximum volumetric efficiency = maximum torque.
Smaller ports require a smaller gas flow to hit maximum speed, so either:
1. Smaller displacement at the same revs
2. Lower revs for a similar displacement
Larger ports require larger gas flow to hit maximum speed, so either:
1. Larger displacement at the same revs
2. Higher revs for a similar displacement
So, if you keep your displacement the same..:
Smaller ports means gas will reach peak flow speeds sooner on the rev range. In effect, this means you hit peak volumetric efficiency (torque) lower down the rev range, but running out of puff higher up. ie. you get more torque down low, but power fades sooner.
Larger ports will require more revs to achieve enough flow to hit peak volumetric efficiency, so peak volumetric efficiency (torque) is achieved further up the rev range, ie. you get more torque higher up.
However, larger ports means slower gas speeds at low revs = poorer volumetric efficiency at those revs = less torque at those revs.
So yes, porting the heads will in theory move the torque (peak flow speeds) further up the rev range, resulting in less torque lower down.
Cams and headwork are complementary - they should be matched with a definite end result in mind. Over-ported heads with a very mild cam will be just as "out" as a wild cam with restrictive heads...
*As I understand it, although if I am wrong, I'm sure someone will let you know soon enough
HTH,
Dom
domV8 said:
[Disclaimer!] As I understand it...
The efficiency at which the fuel/air mix fills the cylinder depends on gas speed through the induction/heads - at the point a which you hit maximum gas speed, you have maximum volumetric efficiency = maximum torque.
Smaller ports require a smaller gas flow to hit maximum speed, so either:
1. Smaller displacement at the same revs
2. Lower revs for a similar displacement
Larger ports require larger gas flow to hit maximum speed, so either:
1. Larger displacement at the same revs
2. Higher revs for a similar displacement
So, if you keep your displacement the same..:
Smaller ports means gas will reach peak flow speeds sooner on the rev range. In effect, this means you hit peak volumetric efficiency (torque) lower down the rev range, but running out of puff higher up. ie. you get more torque down low, but power fades sooner.
Larger ports will require more revs to achieve enough flow to hit peak volumetric efficiency, so peak volumetric efficiency (torque) is achieved further up the rev range, ie. you get more torque higher up.
However, larger ports means slower gas speeds at low revs = poorer volumetric efficiency at those revs = less torque at those revs.
So yes, porting the heads will in theory move the torque (peak flow speeds) further up the rev range, resulting in less torque lower down.
Cams and headwork are complementary - they should be matched with a definite end result in mind. Over-ported heads with a very mild cam will be just as "out" as a wild cam with restrictive heads...
*As I understand it, although if I am wrong, I'm sure someone will let you know soon enough
HTH,
Dom
That's what I thought.... (but without the engineering understanding behind it).The efficiency at which the fuel/air mix fills the cylinder depends on gas speed through the induction/heads - at the point a which you hit maximum gas speed, you have maximum volumetric efficiency = maximum torque.
Smaller ports require a smaller gas flow to hit maximum speed, so either:
1. Smaller displacement at the same revs
2. Lower revs for a similar displacement
Larger ports require larger gas flow to hit maximum speed, so either:
1. Larger displacement at the same revs
2. Higher revs for a similar displacement
So, if you keep your displacement the same..:
Smaller ports means gas will reach peak flow speeds sooner on the rev range. In effect, this means you hit peak volumetric efficiency (torque) lower down the rev range, but running out of puff higher up. ie. you get more torque down low, but power fades sooner.
Larger ports will require more revs to achieve enough flow to hit peak volumetric efficiency, so peak volumetric efficiency (torque) is achieved further up the rev range, ie. you get more torque higher up.
However, larger ports means slower gas speeds at low revs = poorer volumetric efficiency at those revs = less torque at those revs.
So yes, porting the heads will in theory move the torque (peak flow speeds) further up the rev range, resulting in less torque lower down.
Cams and headwork are complementary - they should be matched with a definite end result in mind. Over-ported heads with a very mild cam will be just as "out" as a wild cam with restrictive heads...
*As I understand it, although if I am wrong, I'm sure someone will let you know soon enough
HTH,
Dom
v8 racing said:
Robert Lees said:
Holy ...! Conversion (v8developments) from 4.5 to 5.0 ... £10k! Why would you. Just trade in your 4.5 chim for a 5.0 ?? That is crazy money!
sorry? I wish we did charge that!!KateV8 said:
Don't know what your timescale is but I may be selling my ACT carbon fibre twin plenum next spring. It doesn't do a huge amount for bhp (typically around +8 bhp on a 450, which mine is). But it does a great deal for throttle response and suits a 450 better than the triple plenum from the same company. I've been very happy with it and would leave it on but...a supercharger beckons.
I would be very interested in your ACT Twin plenum for my 500, only if the OP passes up the offer that is. Robert Lees said:
v8 racing said:
Robert Lees said:
Holy ...! Conversion (v8developments) from 4.5 to 5.0 ... £10k! Why would you. Just trade in your 4.5 chim for a 5.0 ?? That is crazy money!
sorry? I wish we did charge that!!Robert Lees said:
v8 racing said:
Robert Lees said:
Holy ...! Conversion (v8developments) from 4.5 to 5.0 ... £10k! Why would you. Just trade in your 4.5 chim for a 5.0 ?? That is crazy money!
sorry? I wish we did charge that!!
MPoxon said:
KateV8 said:
Don't know what your timescale is but I may be selling my ACT carbon fibre twin plenum next spring. It doesn't do a huge amount for bhp (typically around +8 bhp on a 450, which mine is). But it does a great deal for throttle response and suits a 450 better than the triple plenum from the same company. I've been very happy with it and would leave it on but...a supercharger beckons.
I would be very interested in your ACT Twin plenum for my 500, only if the OP passes up the offer that is. Karl.
Edited by A900ss on Friday 8th November 17:36
Personally i feel the best route is to blow the motor you have although i would either fit the standard cam od a specific FI cam the 4.5 is the best alround motor to blow revs out well masses of torque and bhp in a nice even curve.Plus with some off the figures quoted it would save you few quid.
John
John
John,
I would like to blow it but from what I read, it's £5k+ which will mean February/March 2015 of boy £££'s that the wife can't see.
Or I can go Stage 3 heads, induction mods etc which I've been told will get me to about 300hp for half the cost of the blower which I could do Feb/Mar 2014.....
Alternatively, I could do something completely different altogether....
(like a Cerbera but I think I've shot myself I the foot there by telling my wife they cost a lot more to run...)
I would like to blow it but from what I read, it's £5k+ which will mean February/March 2015 of boy £££'s that the wife can't see.
Or I can go Stage 3 heads, induction mods etc which I've been told will get me to about 300hp for half the cost of the blower which I could do Feb/Mar 2014.....
Alternatively, I could do something completely different altogether....
(like a Cerbera but I think I've shot myself I the foot there by telling my wife they cost a lot more to run...)
Edited by A900ss on Friday 8th November 18:59
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