Just a little thought.
Discussion
For all you guys considering the big power route.
You may well have heard that Eean, (the turbo developer for the chim) crashed his car a few weeks ago.
Apparently he was overtaking in his development chim in lane 3 on the motorway and ended up backwards in the central reservation, cars a write off, he's fine.
I believe the road was wet and after what happened to me a couple of days ago I can only assume, (as I believe he doesn't know) with that awesome power and tremendous torque that the rear broke traction.
I had a similar experience on Friday. Damp duel carriageway, accelerating firmly,(and by no means flat out) in third at about 60 mph and the rear broke traction. A wiggle from the rear, back off and squeeze the throttle gently.
So, it can happen as easily as that!
For me, the road was fairly empty and all was under control but another time.............
So just a thought for those chasing big numbers and considering to use their cars on a regular basis, beware.
Some of these upgrades produce tremendous torque which on a dry day is magic on the roads giving seamless power delivery.
My engine produces a tad under 400 torque and if it can happen to me it sure will with big numbers and I have the very excellent Toyo R1Rs fitted.
Strangely with my previous chim developing about 350 torques and wearing the same boots, this has never happened at that speed, even flat out!
You may well have heard that Eean, (the turbo developer for the chim) crashed his car a few weeks ago.
Apparently he was overtaking in his development chim in lane 3 on the motorway and ended up backwards in the central reservation, cars a write off, he's fine.
I believe the road was wet and after what happened to me a couple of days ago I can only assume, (as I believe he doesn't know) with that awesome power and tremendous torque that the rear broke traction.
I had a similar experience on Friday. Damp duel carriageway, accelerating firmly,(and by no means flat out) in third at about 60 mph and the rear broke traction. A wiggle from the rear, back off and squeeze the throttle gently.
So, it can happen as easily as that!
For me, the road was fairly empty and all was under control but another time.............
So just a thought for those chasing big numbers and considering to use their cars on a regular basis, beware.
Some of these upgrades produce tremendous torque which on a dry day is magic on the roads giving seamless power delivery.
My engine produces a tad under 400 torque and if it can happen to me it sure will with big numbers and I have the very excellent Toyo R1Rs fitted.
Strangely with my previous chim developing about 350 torques and wearing the same boots, this has never happened at that speed, even flat out!
Rib said:
Has to be on people's mind, however doesn't this happen every year even with standard cars? One of the drawbacks of light rear end and high torque (even standard)
Quite so, especially with standard tyres but R1Rs are in a different league, that's what surprised me.Huge torque is available with a lot of these upgrades, especially turbos at relatively low revs, that's what catches people out especially if they are used to their super safe daily driver.
Still think and maintain turbo power delivery is not right for these cars, same fate happened to the turbo griff,
Never mock traction control for those who keep saying my right foot is quicker ..... Really ?
Whilst everyone keeps banging on about which ecu to use I don't see any mention of ones using tcs, this is one reason why I switched to a make that offered it
Never mock traction control for those who keep saying my right foot is quicker ..... Really ?
Whilst everyone keeps banging on about which ecu to use I don't see any mention of ones using tcs, this is one reason why I switched to a make that offered it
Edited by Hoofa on Saturday 7th December 09:21
Hoofa said:
Still think and maintain turbo power delivery is not right for these cars, same fate happened to the turbo griff,
Never mock traction control for those who keep saying my right foot is quicker ..... Really ?
Whilst everyone keeps banging on about which ecu to use I don't see any mention of ones using tcs, this is one reason why I switched to a make that offered it
Even with traction control things can get out of shape very quickly on a damp cold road, my daily driver has 570bhp and 680Nm of torque, it has all the nannies that you get with a modern car but it has taken me by surprise a few times in the last couple of months..........beware and don't get too confident with TC!!!Never mock traction control for those who keep saying my right foot is quicker ..... Really ?
Whilst everyone keeps banging on about which ecu to use I don't see any mention of ones using tcs, this is one reason why I switched to a make that offered it
Edited by Hoofa on Saturday 7th December 09:21
Good post Peter 
If the roads are anything other than bone dry I limit my driving to 3K rpm and no more than about 10% throttle. I still make good progress doing this, and (touch wood) the only brown trouser moment I've had in a good while was when a certain well known tuning guru instructed me to go WOT at 70mph, in third, in the wet
I can confirm that this action does indeed induce not only a loss of traction but also some kind of rotational force whereby the back steps out (in this case towards the Armco) and attempts to then overtake the front of the car.
Chilli
If the roads are anything other than bone dry I limit my driving to 3K rpm and no more than about 10% throttle. I still make good progress doing this, and (touch wood) the only brown trouser moment I've had in a good while was when a certain well known tuning guru instructed me to go WOT at 70mph, in third, in the wet
I can confirm that this action does indeed induce not only a loss of traction but also some kind of rotational force whereby the back steps out (in this case towards the Armco) and attempts to then overtake the front of the car.Chilli
Just to note. Eann was on R1Rs also Peter.
Or at least he was when he took me out in it a while ago. It was easily breaking traction in the damp as boost came into play. He was doing it for fun. I am suprised at what happened. Maybe there was more to it than just a wet road and big torque.
I dont have a lot of confidence in my Federal RSR's in the wet. They break away too easily for my liking. Maybe thats a good thing. Keeps me on my toes and rarely complacent.
Or at least he was when he took me out in it a while ago. It was easily breaking traction in the damp as boost came into play. He was doing it for fun. I am suprised at what happened. Maybe there was more to it than just a wet road and big torque.
I dont have a lot of confidence in my Federal RSR's in the wet. They break away too easily for my liking. Maybe thats a good thing. Keeps me on my toes and rarely complacent.
)I agree that when i read about Eann's problem my first thought was the turbo gave him a huge wallop of torque just when he was steering into lane 3, exit stage right, not followed by a bear (to misquote Shakespeare).
I hear what you are saying Peter, and you know what you felt, but my car was hideously unpredictable until I got it geo'd. And it improved further when I got it corner weighted. I agree that, in mathematical terms, DR + TMP = BT, but I still wonder if there's more to it on your car. You were used the handling of a correctly set up 4.6.
I hear what you are saying Peter, and you know what you felt, but my car was hideously unpredictable until I got it geo'd. And it improved further when I got it corner weighted. I agree that, in mathematical terms, DR + TMP = BT, but I still wonder if there's more to it on your car. You were used the handling of a correctly set up 4.6.
phazed said:
How can perfect geo overcome grip?
It's simple physics and as far as we know my geo may be perfect.
Lots of torque, minimal grip, I may have been in a reliant Robin, the same applies.
Doesnt the geo affect how the tyre connects with the road? I remember someone talking about their car tyres on track being cold on one side or the edges before getting the geo corrected. That said, I tend agree about the power thing!It's simple physics and as far as we know my geo may be perfect.
Lots of torque, minimal grip, I may have been in a reliant Robin, the same applies.
TV8 said:
phazed said:
How can perfect geo overcome grip?
It's simple physics and as far as we know my geo may be perfect.
Lots of torque, minimal grip, I may have been in a reliant Robin, the same applies.
Doesnt the geo affect how the tyre connects with the road? I remember someone talking about their car tyres on track being cold on one side or the edges before getting the geo corrected. That said, I tend agree about the power thing!It's simple physics and as far as we know my geo may be perfect.
Lots of torque, minimal grip, I may have been in a reliant Robin, the same applies.
Rake has a big effect, as does the amount of weight just behind the axle line.
These cars are light overall, but for the power going through the rear wheels it could be argued the weight over the rear axle is inadequate.
Especially if you're driving with a low fuel tank on a wet day.
Take the body off a TVR and you'll see the structure ends right behind the rear axle line, put the body back on and all you've got aft of the rear axle is the super lightweight fiberglass boot structure.
Now have a look at every other rear wheel drive car and compare the amount of weight they carry over or behind the rear tyres, it's usually got a big heavy steel boot and petrol tank, or in the case of a 911 a whole engine.
Actually in a TVR you've got the petrol tank too, but the weight that offers is an ever changing picture, let me explain.
A Chimaera petrol tank holds 12.5 Imperial gallons, so when full you've got a nice 45kg just behind the rear axle line.
But not for long.
For every gallon you consume you're losing at least 3.5kg, when your down to the last 3 gallons you've lost 33kg of weight assisted traction.
In percentage terms that's a massive 75% loss of weight over your rear axle compared with a full tank.
That makes a huge difference!
In days gone by other cars that suffered the same issue were often equipped with a bag of sand in the boot, or in the case of the rear engine Hilman Imp a bag of sand over the front axle.
It's crude, you laugh, but I can tell you it works.
Chuck a couple of bags of sand in the boot of your Chimaera during these slippery conditions and tell me it doesn't.
These cars are light overall, but for the power going through the rear wheels it could be argued the weight over the rear axle is inadequate.
Especially if you're driving with a low fuel tank on a wet day.
Take the body off a TVR and you'll see the structure ends right behind the rear axle line, put the body back on and all you've got aft of the rear axle is the super lightweight fiberglass boot structure.
Now have a look at every other rear wheel drive car and compare the amount of weight they carry over or behind the rear tyres, it's usually got a big heavy steel boot and petrol tank, or in the case of a 911 a whole engine.
Actually in a TVR you've got the petrol tank too, but the weight that offers is an ever changing picture, let me explain.
A Chimaera petrol tank holds 12.5 Imperial gallons, so when full you've got a nice 45kg just behind the rear axle line.
But not for long.
For every gallon you consume you're losing at least 3.5kg, when your down to the last 3 gallons you've lost 33kg of weight assisted traction.
In percentage terms that's a massive 75% loss of weight over your rear axle compared with a full tank.
That makes a huge difference!
In days gone by other cars that suffered the same issue were often equipped with a bag of sand in the boot, or in the case of the rear engine Hilman Imp a bag of sand over the front axle.
It's crude, you laugh, but I can tell you it works.
Chuck a couple of bags of sand in the boot of your Chimaera during these slippery conditions and tell me it doesn't.
I've had a lotof supposedly scary cars, some of which are in my profile and the Chim is certainly right up there with the 930 turbo in terms of being the biggest handful. The adrenalin rush I get from driving it is unmatched by anything else I've had. The roads don't even need to be wet to allow high speed wheel spin, just cold and shiny. Interesting that the fuel load was mentioned. My 930 turbo used to be a lot more stable under heavy braking when full of fuel.
slippery said:
I've had a lotof supposedly scary cars, some of which are in my profile and the Chim is certainly right up there with the 930 turbo in terms of being the biggest handful. The adrenalin rush I get from driving it is unmatched by anything else I've had. The roads don't even need to be wet to allow high speed wheel spin, just cold and shiny. Interesting that the fuel load was mentioned. My 930 turbo used to be a lot more stable under heavy braking when full of fuel.
Interesting, out of interest what was your 928 like in this respect?
My Dad had the Sunbeam version of the Imp. He kept a paving slab in the front boot as stated above. I drove it once, aged 17, to East Midlands Airport to collect my parents off a flight.
Abiding memory of travelling backwards down the grass verge of the A453 for about 400 yards at around 60 mph, unscathed. Prepared me for my ability in later life to leave any race track backwards in a TVR, so far without hitting anything..
Abiding memory of travelling backwards down the grass verge of the A453 for about 400 yards at around 60 mph, unscathed. Prepared me for my ability in later life to leave any race track backwards in a TVR, so far without hitting anything..
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