Discussion
I would imagine that you are wasting your time IMO. They're a best guess anyway and it really needs to be mapped by MA to your engine for you to get the most out of it. Even then, you'll still have the 5AM, not the TorqueFlow set-up ( http://www.torquev8.com/products.html. Blitz is on to something with the Aldon Amethyst and the mapping of 14CUX. There has been a clever thread on the Griff forum about it. I would say that it is worth reading, but I didn't understand 90% of it!!!
Edit to say:
Here's the thread! http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
Edit to say:
Here's the thread! http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
Edited by Chuffmeister on Friday 3rd January 11:37
Chuffmeister said:
I would imagine that you are wasting your time IMO. They're a best guess anyway and it really needs to be mapped by MA to your engine for you to get the most out of it.
In my experience, MA's 'best guess' is a whole lot better than RR mappers who aren't as intimately familiar with the intricacies of the RV8 can do on a morning/afternoon... The only time that I've had an MA chip that was written for a specific configuration did not immediately return 100% (and vastly improved compared to the 'before' situation) driveability was when the valley gasket that was installed at the same time (cam change) was found to be faulty with a major air leak as a result. 
I had an engine re build and it ran a bit rough.
A well known engine builder went into his box of magic, installed a be spoke chip and everything's been flying along ever since!
Every aspect of the fuelling was and still is better.
Its not a bad thing to try I'd say. Can't help with a chip but as always good luck
A well known engine builder went into his box of magic, installed a be spoke chip and everything's been flying along ever since!
Every aspect of the fuelling was and still is better.
Its not a bad thing to try I'd say. Can't help with a chip but as always good luck
Chuffmeister said:
I would imagine that you are wasting your time IMO. They're a best guess anyway and it really needs to be mapped by MA to your engine for you to get the most out of it. Even then, you'll still have the 5AM, not the TorqueFlow set-up ( http://www.torquev8.com/products.html. Blitz is on to something with the Aldon Amethyst and the mapping of 14CUX. There has been a clever thread on the Griff forum about it. I would say that it is worth reading, but I didn't understand 90% of it!!!
Edit to say:
Here's the thread! http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
The TF system I pulled to bits a few years ago does NOT use bespoke mapping- its basically the stock AFM electronics put into a bigger tube, and then the electronics is tweeked to rescale the AFM output to match the reduced air velocity in the bigger tube. Any chip changes are just TVR maps from different engine set ups, that can then be compensated for by tweeking the electronics again to make the AFM output fit the map, not the other way around. Its all analogue and uses about 4 variable resistors, so taks a lot of setting up. Personally Id go for the Bosch or Lucas 20AM AFM with the correct remap if you want to let more air in.Edit to say:
Here's the thread! http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
Edited by Chuffmeister on Friday 3rd January 11:37
The Amethyst is to remap the ignition timing, not the fueling. Cracking the 14CUX programming is slowed down a bit as Steve Sprints car is now off the road, as is mine, although Joolz of Kit classics has managed to remap a 20AM onto a 5 litre car recently.
Edited by blitzracing on Friday 3rd January 13:05
The engine just doesn't seem to be pulling as well as it did and those I've spoken to and the forum advice seems to suggest bin the standard AFM and do something with the ECU.
My main problem is that i'm having trouble finding anyone here in Germany who can properly map the motor so 'best guess' seems to be my only option without spending 100s quid on fuel just to get to the UK to an experienced tuner and back. The only other option is Megasquirt but I really don't understand the first thing about the install or set-up - It seems everyone has a different opinion about which system, whats required and how to go about it. Headache.
Edit:- I should add that I intend coming to the UK at some point with the car where I will then book it in for a correct tune but a best guess chip seems to be the easiest option in the mean time.
My main problem is that i'm having trouble finding anyone here in Germany who can properly map the motor so 'best guess' seems to be my only option without spending 100s quid on fuel just to get to the UK to an experienced tuner and back. The only other option is Megasquirt but I really don't understand the first thing about the install or set-up - It seems everyone has a different opinion about which system, whats required and how to go about it. Headache.
Edit:- I should add that I intend coming to the UK at some point with the car where I will then book it in for a correct tune but a best guess chip seems to be the easiest option in the mean time.
Edited by estutjaweh on Friday 3rd January 13:36
estutjaweh said:
The engine just doesn't seem to be pulling as well as it did and those I've spoken to and the forum advice seems to suggest bin the standard AFM and do something with the ECU.
Bad advice TBH. If it 'doesn't pull as well as it did (in the same configuration)' something is awry and I'd investigate and rectify it first before bolting on alternative parts.These guys can remap and understand the 14CUX.
http://www.onixx.nl/
A stock 5 ltr cars even with a 5 AM is still bloody quick, so if its down on power its likley something else is wrong, more than needing a remap.
http://www.onixx.nl/
A stock 5 ltr cars even with a 5 AM is still bloody quick, so if its down on power its likley something else is wrong, more than needing a remap.
Edited by blitzracing on Friday 3rd January 14:13
Hmmm… I think there's a little misunderstanding/ misinterpretation from my reply.
IMO a best guess is a 'best guess'. It isn't a bespoke map and is unlikely to solve the OP's issues. A Tornado Chip may work for some, but not for others. You pays yer money, you takes yer chance! It is indeed cheaper than a new ECU, but your getting a best guess for your cut price. When comparing ECU's, it isn't wise to base good scenario against worst case scenario as in the Tornado vs poorly mapped RV8. Any system can be badly mapped. Whereas I accept that keeping 14cux is cheaper and it does a good job, it still has its limitations. The experience of many on here would suggest it isn't better than an aftermarket ECU and there are many reputable RV8 tuners.
I'm aware that the TF system isn't a bespoke mapped system either, but it does have a larger AFM and is a more direct/ of the shelf route than the current 20AM workaround. Who knows, it's days maybe numbered if progress with 14cux and the piggy back fuelling devices continues.
As many have said, it is unlikely to be the cause of the OP's problems. However, if I had to purchase a new ECU, I would likely go aftermarket than stick with 14cux. I would, however, retain all the original ECU, loom etc, so the car could be put back to standard in the future.
IMO a best guess is a 'best guess'. It isn't a bespoke map and is unlikely to solve the OP's issues. A Tornado Chip may work for some, but not for others. You pays yer money, you takes yer chance! It is indeed cheaper than a new ECU, but your getting a best guess for your cut price. When comparing ECU's, it isn't wise to base good scenario against worst case scenario as in the Tornado vs poorly mapped RV8. Any system can be badly mapped. Whereas I accept that keeping 14cux is cheaper and it does a good job, it still has its limitations. The experience of many on here would suggest it isn't better than an aftermarket ECU and there are many reputable RV8 tuners.
I'm aware that the TF system isn't a bespoke mapped system either, but it does have a larger AFM and is a more direct/ of the shelf route than the current 20AM workaround. Who knows, it's days maybe numbered if progress with 14cux and the piggy back fuelling devices continues.
As many have said, it is unlikely to be the cause of the OP's problems. However, if I had to purchase a new ECU, I would likely go aftermarket than stick with 14cux. I would, however, retain all the original ECU, loom etc, so the car could be put back to standard in the future.
Edited by Chuffmeister on Saturday 4th January 01:05
Chuffmeister said:
Hmmm… I think there's a little misunderstanding/ misinterpretation from my reply.
Don't think so, really.Chuffmeister said:
IMO a best guess is a 'best guess'. It isn't a bespoke map and is unlikely to solve the OP's issues. A Tornado Chip may work for some, but not for others. You pays yer money, you takes yer chance!
1) At least it is a map that's been written for a specific engine by someone who's mapped 3,500 or so RV8s, unlike the 'other' solution that puts the innards of a standard AMM into a big tube and tries to 'adapt' to the wildly differing airflow characteristics of that tube wth the use of some potmeters and a choice of bog standard ECU chips.2) Are you aware just how many parameters have a map/table inside even an older OEM management system like the 14 CUX and how many hourds are spent mapping these to perfection by the OEMs? How much of that do you expect to be able to replicate from scratch in a few hours' worth of rolling road sessions with an alternative ECU? At least Mark Adams have the benefit of being able to amortize his development hours over a few thousand engines/chips...
3) The proof of the pudding is in the eating and my experience has taught that every time I commission a Tornado package for a car, I get 100% driveability with no 'maintenance issues' on the engine management side over time. It's as good as OEM. Hand on heart, how many users of aftermarket systems can say they use their cars on a daily basis without having to tinker with the engine management every now and then?
900T-R said:
1) At least it is a map that's been written for a specific engine by someone who's mapped 3,500 or so RV8s, unlike the 'other' solution that puts the innards of a standard AMM into a big tube and tries to 'adapt' to the wildly differing airflow characteristics of that tube wth the use of some potmeters and a choice of bog standard ECU chips.
2) Are you aware just how many parameters have a map/table inside even an older OEM management system like the 14 CUX and how many hourds are spent mapping these to perfection by the OEMs? How much of that do you expect to be able to replicate from scratch in a few hours' worth of rolling road sessions with an alternative ECU? At least Mark Adams have the benefit of being able to amortize his development hours over a few thousand engines/chips...
3) The proof of the pudding is in the eating and my experience has taught that every time I commission a Tornado package for a car, I get 100% driveability with no 'maintenance issues' on the engine management side over time. It's as good as OEM. Hand on heart, how many users of aftermarket systems can say they use their cars on a daily basis without having to tinker with the engine management every now and then?
Every time I hear this rubbish about thousands of engines with the 14CUX I do just 2) Are you aware just how many parameters have a map/table inside even an older OEM management system like the 14 CUX and how many hourds are spent mapping these to perfection by the OEMs? How much of that do you expect to be able to replicate from scratch in a few hours' worth of rolling road sessions with an alternative ECU? At least Mark Adams have the benefit of being able to amortize his development hours over a few thousand engines/chips...
3) The proof of the pudding is in the eating and my experience has taught that every time I commission a Tornado package for a car, I get 100% driveability with no 'maintenance issues' on the engine management side over time. It's as good as OEM. Hand on heart, how many users of aftermarket systems can say they use their cars on a daily basis without having to tinker with the engine management every now and then?
- it's like saying thousands of steam train engines, yes they may have optimised the 14CUX but it is simplistic compared to modern ECU's. The fact is people who have had their cars professionally built, professionally setup do not see ANY issues, it drives like a dream, pulls cleanly from 800rpm hot/cold/freezing and starts from hot, this is not rocket science it has just been mapped correctly and installed correctly, all this stuff about 'drift' is absolutely f
king bks. People are welcome to meddle with their own maps and for some that is part of the fun. NickOrangeTVR said:
but it is simplistic compared to modern ECU's. The fact is people who have had their cars professionally built, professionally setup do not see ANY issues, it drives like a dream, pulls cleanly from 800rpm hot/cold/freezing and starts from hot, this is not rocket science it has just been mapped correctly and installed correctly, all this stuff about 'drift' is absolutely fking bks. fun.
If you think its simple, Id suggest you read the post on programming it, and see how it works and just what it does,. Its major limitations are it has problems with the emission control side of things with tuned engines as the narrow band probe response is slow, and TVR put the probes downwind of the pre-cats that makes it worse. If you switch to non catalyst mode and the correct map its as good as gold- and I would suspect that your aftermarket ECU is not programmed to try and run exactly lambda 1 all the time to get the best from it? The things it cant do is sequential injection, and most importantly spark control, plus the tuning software is not yet fully developed- yet, but dont bin it just because you dont understand it. Not sure what you mean by "drift" in a digital world?king bks. fun. 900T-R said:
1) At least it is a map that's been written for a specific engine by someone who's mapped 3,500 or so RV8s, unlike the 'other' solution that puts the innards of a standard AMM into a big tube and tries to 'adapt' to the wildly differing airflow characteristics of that tube wth the use of some potmeters and a choice of bog standard ECU chips.
2) Are you aware just how many parameters have a map/table inside even an older OEM management system like the 14 CUX and how many hourds are spent mapping these to perfection by the OEMs? How much of that do you expect to be able to replicate from scratch in a few hours' worth of rolling road sessions with an alternative ECU? At least Mark Adams have the benefit of being able to amortize his development hours over a few thousand engines/chips...
3) The proof of the pudding is in the eating and my experience has taught that every time I commission a Tornado package for a car, I get 100% driveability with no 'maintenance issues' on the engine management side over time. It's as good as OEM. Hand on heart, how many users of aftermarket systems can say they use their cars on a daily basis without having to tinker with the engine management every now and then?
'IMO'… if you don't like it, don't subscribe to it. No need for an offensive… 2) Are you aware just how many parameters have a map/table inside even an older OEM management system like the 14 CUX and how many hourds are spent mapping these to perfection by the OEMs? How much of that do you expect to be able to replicate from scratch in a few hours' worth of rolling road sessions with an alternative ECU? At least Mark Adams have the benefit of being able to amortize his development hours over a few thousand engines/chips...
3) The proof of the pudding is in the eating and my experience has taught that every time I commission a Tornado package for a car, I get 100% driveability with no 'maintenance issues' on the engine management side over time. It's as good as OEM. Hand on heart, how many users of aftermarket systems can say they use their cars on a daily basis without having to tinker with the engine management every now and then?
My point is exactly that and nothing else. It is 'a map'. The car came from the factory with 'a map'. I don't for one moment doubt the skills of MA and his accumulative knowledge and I do wholly appreciate the complexities of 14cux or the fact that it has been good for business. On the other hand, there does seem to be a lot of people who have also visited mappers with a lot of experience and achieved good results on an aftermarket ECU. I guess everybody's needs differ, therefore each system has it's advocates.
Aftermarket ECU's aren't your bag, I appreciate that now. I'll just agree to differ.
Chuffmeister said:
'IMO'… if you don't like it, don't subscribe to it. No need for an offensive…
My point is exactly that and nothing else. It is 'a map'. The car came from the factory with 'a map'. I don't for one moment doubt the skills of MA and his accumulative knowledge and I do wholly appreciate the complexities of 14cux or the fact that it has been good for business. On the other hand, there does seem to be a lot of people who have also visited mappers with a lot of experience and achieved good results on an aftermarket ECU. I guess everybody's needs differ, therefore each system has it's advocates.
Aftermarket ECU's aren't your bag, I appreciate that now. I'll just agree to differ.
That's not the case at all. Aftermarket ECUs have their place and in some cases (forced induction for instance) I heartily advocate their use.My point is exactly that and nothing else. It is 'a map'. The car came from the factory with 'a map'. I don't for one moment doubt the skills of MA and his accumulative knowledge and I do wholly appreciate the complexities of 14cux or the fact that it has been good for business. On the other hand, there does seem to be a lot of people who have also visited mappers with a lot of experience and achieved good results on an aftermarket ECU. I guess everybody's needs differ, therefore each system has it's advocates.
Aftermarket ECU's aren't your bag, I appreciate that now. I'll just agree to differ.
However you made a fairly aggressive statement about the MA Tornado chips (not even counting your underhand slight above that 'it's been good for business' (it's not that purveyors of aftermarket systems do this pro deo, is it?) while pushing a demonstrably inferior bodge in the shape of stock Lucas AMM internals in a bigger pipe with a generic chip and some potmeters in the same sentence, and I pulled you up on it.
Very few people fully understand the intricacies of OEM engine managemnt systems and what goes into their calibration, yet everyone seems to think they can rip it out, replace it with a different box of chips and map it themselves to the same standards just to save spending a few hundred quid with someone who truly understand what they're doing. This does strike me as pennywise and pound foolish.
I've also been on here long enough to have noticed that in most cases where an aftermarket system has been installed, it's been far from plain sailing.
Anyway, it's all a moot point because none of the above 'solutions' will help the OP.
His car ran well with the AMM and chip it had, now it doesn't. This indicates the car needs to be brought back to full working order before deciding if and how to take things further for performance.
900T-R said:
Anyway, it's all a moot point because none of the above 'solutions' will help the OP.
His car ran well with the AMM and chip it had, now it doesn't. This indicates the car needs to be brought back to full working order before deciding if and how to take things further for performance.
Agreed His car ran well with the AMM and chip it had, now it doesn't. This indicates the car needs to be brought back to full working order before deciding if and how to take things further for performance.
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