Not cranking today
Discussion
Damn. Stuck on the drive and it's hissing down... Electrics all working (apart from the bits that make the engine crank), fuel pump primes, can hear the starter solenoid work when turning the key, but nothing thereafter... Not even the traditional dimming of the dash lights....
Anyway, I'm working on the problem now, and having spent much time this morning searching for related threads I came upon the one below...
It's highly informative and worth bookmarking...
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
Anyway, I'm working on the problem now, and having spent much time this morning searching for related threads I came upon the one below...
It's highly informative and worth bookmarking...
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
ChilliWhizz said:
Damn. Stuck on the drive and it's hissing down... Electrics all working (apart from the bits that make the engine crank), fuel pump primes, can hear the starter solenoid work when turning the key, but nothing thereafter... Not even the traditional dimming of the dash lights....
Anyway, I'm working on the problem now, and having spent much time this morning searching for related threads I came upon the one below...
It's highly informative and worth bookmarking...
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
I had this issue. Have you got an Anderson connector under your bonnet Chilli? I removed the battery and connected it directly via the Anderson connector and it started, so it ruled out the battery and the starter.Anyway, I'm working on the problem now, and having spent much time this morning searching for related threads I came upon the one below...
It's highly informative and worth bookmarking...
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
My issue was an earth. Despite checking all the earths, I couldn't find the drain, so made up and connected three more (replaced the one from the battery to the bolt under the thread, a new one from the battery to the block and to the chassis). Together with the new live cable I put in and the E39 battery, it cranks no problem. Dave's advice (ChimpOnGas) was invaluable.
Hi guys, thanks for the info...
Just tried again, seems loads of battery power, pump primes, turn the key to crank and all I get is a loud 'click', sounds like it's coming from under the car (i.e. not from under the dash). Odd thing is when it clicks it doesn't even seem to be trying to turn the starter motor, and none of the dash lights dim, which I find is usually the case with a low battery when it's trying to crank the engine
Just tried again, seems loads of battery power, pump primes, turn the key to crank and all I get is a loud 'click', sounds like it's coming from under the car (i.e. not from under the dash). Odd thing is when it clicks it doesn't even seem to be trying to turn the starter motor, and none of the dash lights dim, which I find is usually the case with a low battery when it's trying to crank the engine
Chilli, just call the RAC, they really are good at this sort of thing 
You know about the two things they might not immediately know; 1) 100 amp fuse; 2) common hot start causes.
The last you certainly don't have, because you haven't got it hot yet.
The first won't stop you from cranking unless the battery has died as a result, and they can load test the battery on the spot.
If you have had a 'traditional' hot start kit fitted, you may well find an inline fuse in the foot well that has expired or escaped.
Good luck.
You know about the two things they might not immediately know; 1) 100 amp fuse; 2) common hot start causes.
The last you certainly don't have, because you haven't got it hot yet.
The first won't stop you from cranking unless the battery has died as a result, and they can load test the battery on the spot.
If you have had a 'traditional' hot start kit fitted, you may well find an inline fuse in the foot well that has expired or escaped.
Good luck.
Properly rule out the battery and starter Chilli!!!!. A 15 minute job, including removing the battery.If the battery in the Chim is a real pain, remove one from your daily hack. Failing the Anderson connector, use a set of jump leads from the battery. Jack the car up, connect the earth on the battery to an earthing point on the engine/ chassis (one on offside wheel arch) . The connect the live feed to the battery and touch the live terminal on the starter with the live. Remove the king lead from the coil so it only cranks and ensure that it isn't in gear!
Edited by Chuffmeister on Saturday 4th January 16:39
I currently have the same issue. Left it outside in the rain when we were visiting family over Christmas and it didn't like the damp. It just clicked and refused to turn over when it was cold. I bump started it down the hill for the few days I was there, and for the rest of each day it started fine. Started up quickly and every time. But leave it overnight in the rain and it wouldn't start the next morning again.
When I got home I jacked it up and thought I'd remove the battery cable and clean the connections. In doing so the terminal on the solenoid snapped out of the old brittle plastic. So I've ordered a new starter motor complete with solenoid. I hope this sorts out the non starting issue. I might also run a new battery cable through as well, if it's not too difficult. I have loads of battery cable at work.
When I got home I jacked it up and thought I'd remove the battery cable and clean the connections. In doing so the terminal on the solenoid snapped out of the old brittle plastic. So I've ordered a new starter motor complete with solenoid. I hope this sorts out the non starting issue. I might also run a new battery cable through as well, if it's not too difficult. I have loads of battery cable at work.
Guys, thanks for all the advice and encouragement... very much appreciated, as always....
Tried rocking in case of stuck starter earlier but that doesn't seem to be the problem... I've now run out of time, back to work tomorrow and not back till end of the month or early Feb... Will break out the Leven hood cover tomorrow, but beasties gonna have to live outside for a few more weeks.
I'm having a complete rethink on the battery issue, having read Dave's excellent stuff I'm thinking about updating the whole electrical scenario (sorry Bill...)... To be fair, I've had three years with no problems, apart from battery issues.. and they've been down to me because sometimes I've had to leave the old girl up to six weeks without any charge to the battery... It's been pretty abused in my three years of ownership, so I guess I haven't done too badly really...
The big downside to this is that I'm almost certainly now not going to be sorted for Snetts on the 8th of Feb.... Aside from battery issues I still haven't got the brakes sorted....
That said, if I'm home, I'll be there, even if beastie can't make it....
Tried rocking in case of stuck starter earlier but that doesn't seem to be the problem... I've now run out of time, back to work tomorrow and not back till end of the month or early Feb... Will break out the Leven hood cover tomorrow, but beasties gonna have to live outside for a few more weeks.
I'm having a complete rethink on the battery issue, having read Dave's excellent stuff I'm thinking about updating the whole electrical scenario (sorry Bill...)... To be fair, I've had three years with no problems, apart from battery issues.. and they've been down to me because sometimes I've had to leave the old girl up to six weeks without any charge to the battery... It's been pretty abused in my three years of ownership, so I guess I haven't done too badly really...
The big downside to this is that I'm almost certainly now not going to be sorted for Snetts on the 8th of Feb.... Aside from battery issues I still haven't got the brakes sorted....
That said, if I'm home, I'll be there, even if beastie can't make it....
ChilliWhizz said:
Hi guys, thanks for the info...
Just tried again, seems loads of battery power, pump primes, turn the key to crank and all I get is a loud 'click', sounds like it's coming from under the car (i.e. not from under the dash). Odd thing is when it clicks it doesn't even seem to be trying to turn the starter motor, and none of the dash lights dim, which I find is usually the case with a low battery when it's trying to crank the engine
Mate, sounds like your starter is fecked!Just tried again, seems loads of battery power, pump primes, turn the key to crank and all I get is a loud 'click', sounds like it's coming from under the car (i.e. not from under the dash). Odd thing is when it clicks it doesn't even seem to be trying to turn the starter motor, and none of the dash lights dim, which I find is usually the case with a low battery when it's trying to crank the engine
The fact your starter solenoid is clicking & you're getting a dimming of the lights seems to suggest the low amp solenoid circuit and the solenoid itself is fine.
But before you replace your starter motor it's worth doing two last tests, all you need is a set of long jump leads.
Attach one end of a long jump lead to the negative battery terminal, attach the other end to the body of the starter (the head of the lower starter motor mounting bolt is perfect).
You have now created a known reliable earth path for the high amp starter circuit.
Attempt a start.
Car starts = earthing issue on the high amp circuit, clean up earth terminal on the battery & earth strap connection to diagonal chassis tube.
Car fails to start, remove temporary jump lead earth.
Attach one end of a long jump lead to the positive battery terminal, attach the other end to the high amp live terminal on the back of the starter motor.
Attempt a start.
Car starts = live feed issue on the high amp circuit, clean battery terminals & connection at the back of the starter motor.
Car fails to start, replace starter motor.
Actually you can do all these checks without the jump leads, just use a multimeter.
But as a quick down & dirty way of locating where the problem resides the jump lead tests will quickly point you in the right direction.
In my case I found lots of issues that all added up to very marginal high & low amp starter circuits.
On the high amp side, you need a solid high amp feed to the starter, note that the factory starter cable is very long & of a rather light gauge so after its aged & been cooked over the years it ends up being overly resistive.
You also need a fit starter motor and a good earth path to complete the high amp circuit back to the battery.
On the low amp starter solenoid circuit (not your issue), you just need a solid feed to the solenoid, a fit solenoid & a free well lubricated throw arm on the Bendix mechanism (could be your issue).
The low amp starter solenoid circuit runs from the positive battery terminal through the sprung position on the ignition switch, through the immobiliser to the starter solenoid then through the body of the starter & chassis to arrive back at the negative battery terminal to complete the circuit.
TVR declined to fit a dedicated starter relay as is common practice, preferring instead to rely on the rather weedy little relay buried inside the immobiliser.
There are two issues with this:
1) The immobiliser relay was never designed for the job, its just a little latching relay for the function of the immobiliser itself, it is not designed to take the level of amps present in the starter solenoid circuit
2) TVR wired the circuit back to front
These two issues are why the little relay inside the immobiliser has such a short life.
Remember, hearing the fuel pump buzz into life is no indication the starter circuit is working correctly as the fuel pump circuit passes through a different relay inside the immobiliser and is far less likely to fail as the fuel pump pulls far few amps than the starter solenoid.
If you do find the starter solenoid is not receiving it's full compliment of amps, a down & dirty cheap fix is to simply bypass the immobiliser.
You could just fit a relay to take some load off the feeble immobiliser relay, but if the contacts on that relay are already pitted you're really just masking the issue and it'll certainly come back to bite you on the arsh at a later date.
And TVR law dictates that will probably be on a dark cold night just when you want to get home.
Bypassing the immobiliser takes the immobiliser relay out of the equation for good, fitting a relay too is certainly best practice but may not be entirely necessary, it will however take some load off the contacts in your ignition switch.
I chose to take my immobiliser out of the starter solenoid game, the fuel pump still passes through it so the car can not be started without the immobiliser being disengaged.
I also improved the live feed to the starter and it's earth return, with a decent battery & a good strong starter motor means any starting issues have been completely & permanently banished to the naughty corner.
And all that without a relay, no car built before the 1970's ever had a starter relay because it's largely unnecessary.
As long as the low amp starter wire is of a sufficient gauge & the earth path is good all the amps the starter solenoid needs pass unimpeded from the battery through the sprung position on the ignition switch directly to the starter solenoid.
If you haven't done the bypass all fitting a relay will do is take some load off the relay inside the immobiliser
But with a bypass (other that taking some load off the ignition switch & extending its life) a hot start relay is largely unnecessary.
The real issue on the low amp starter solenoid circuit is down to TVR's choice to run all those amps through the immobiliser relay and then wiring the circuit back to front
But remember, fitting a second relay can never repair the worn & pitted contact faces of your 17 year old abused tiny relay inside your immobiliser, the damage is done!
Only replacing the immobiliser & correctly wiring it with fix the problem, that's why Carl Baker never fits an addition relay when he replaces your alarm.
In Carl's words, not mine:
"When the immobiliser is replaced & wired correctly, a second relay is completely unnecessary"
In Dave's words, not Carl's:
"Or you could just bypass the fecker"
Dave, that's a really helpful article but there is one thing I don't quite follow. You say that TVR wired the circuit back to front. Does that mean that the immobiliser should have been between the starter and the battery earth wheras it is actually between the starter and the battery positive?
I followed Dave's advice and it was invaluable. It wasn't until I went through the entire process (arse about face admittedly) that I understood it. That is what I was trying to get across, so you could rule out the starter and battery before ordering replacements. I still haven't got a clue about the immobiliser thing though. At least I did my live feed. A pig of a job though!
ChimpOnGas said:
Mate, sounds like your starter is fecked!
Hi Dave, thanks for all the advice, both it and the time you spend posting is very much appreciated.... I also came to the same conclusion this morning, having read everything I could lay my hands on info wise (including the bible) and adding my symptoms to this it does seem the solenoid contacts/starter motor is at fault. Will do the electrical checks as you suggest, will have to wait till beginning of Feb now though as work has reared its head a bit sooner than I had expected...I'm thinking of getting all the electricals done in one hit, sort the starter out, move battery from footwell, relocate fuse box, new cabling, bypass starter solenoid in the immobiliser etc etc.. Brake lights aren't working at the moment either... Then get the front discs skimmed, change brake fluid to the higher spec stuff etc etc.. She gets interim oil changes, but the 6k service will be due in another 1k miles or so, plus MOT is due late Feb
(first since fitting Clive's Y so fingers crossed).Chilli
Chuffmeister said:
I followed Dave's advice and it was invaluable. It wasn't until I went through the entire process (arse about face admittedly) that I understood it. That is what I was trying to get across, so you could rule out the starter and battery before ordering replacements. I still haven't got a clue about the immobiliser thing though. At least I did my live feed. A pig of a job though!
Thanks Chuff, and thank God for the PH forums and the very helpful, friendly, and knowledgeable enthusiasts that inhabit them 
Sorry to hear you haven't fixed it Chilli.
Dave's 'fix' makes excellent sense.
It's a belt and braces approach, which is his approach to pretty much everything he does, and it greatly improves on a poor design/specification.
I have a simple procedure that I follow; 5 minutes attempting to start the car (irrespective of make/model); if success then continue with your day, if not success call the RAC.
You can always cancel the call out if you fix it yourself.
But if you don't (fix it), they arrive with a van load of tools, testers, components, and generally a wealth of experience.
Dave's 'fix' makes excellent sense.
It's a belt and braces approach, which is his approach to pretty much everything he does, and it greatly improves on a poor design/specification.
I have a simple procedure that I follow; 5 minutes attempting to start the car (irrespective of make/model); if success then continue with your day, if not success call the RAC.
You can always cancel the call out if you fix it yourself.
But if you don't (fix it), they arrive with a van load of tools, testers, components, and generally a wealth of experience.
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