Radiator Replacement
Discussion
Having your own radiator reconditioned (see local yellow pages for suitable companies) costs around £100 - £130 + vat
Offord do reconditioned and strengened radiators on exchange for around £160 + vat (I think)
TVR dealers can supply the latest radiator new for around £225 + vat plus fitting kit which includes different hoses etc. for £18 + vat. Recommend buying factory fitting kit as there are subtle differences between old & new rads
The latest design is aluminium core and plastic headers and of fabricated design. Which means no soldered parts and does not crack and break like the original. Plus aluminium gives better cooling.
Offord do reconditioned and strengened radiators on exchange for around £160 + vat (I think)
TVR dealers can supply the latest radiator new for around £225 + vat plus fitting kit which includes different hoses etc. for £18 + vat. Recommend buying factory fitting kit as there are subtle differences between old & new rads
The latest design is aluminium core and plastic headers and of fabricated design. Which means no soldered parts and does not crack and break like the original. Plus aluminium gives better cooling.
PeterC said:
Snippity - .... Plus aluminium gives better cooling.Snip
Totally agree with prices - changed mine for a Copper Recon Unit (Landrover) last year £130 plus fitting.
Sorry to be a Pedant Peter !!
The Conduction coefficient (k) of Copper (Annealed) is: 2715
Conduction coefficient (k) of Aluminum is: 1420
Ratio is 1.91:1 (almost 2:1)
Copper is more efficient at transfer of heat.
However, Copper is approximately twice the price of Aluminum.
So the dilema is twice the size, but same cost for same cooling - but cheaper assembly of Ally/plastic assemblies - don't know if it will last any longer (provided proper antifreeze mixture used) -. QED
//pedant off//
Trev McM
The only part of a radiator that wears out is the core, so unless you want to change the radiator type i.e. for a newer aluminium or aluminium/plastic it is not false economy to re-core.
With a re-core the radiator will always fit your mounts and pipes. The newer radiators also have the otter switch mounted in them, this is a better location but your car may have this and so a minor rewire could be needed.
The all aluminium radiators are, I believe stronger and lighter (I also thought more efficient thought maybe not) but aluminium is more expensive to repair.
Cheers,
Simon.
With a re-core the radiator will always fit your mounts and pipes. The newer radiators also have the otter switch mounted in them, this is a better location but your car may have this and so a minor rewire could be needed.
The all aluminium radiators are, I believe stronger and lighter (I also thought more efficient thought maybe not) but aluminium is more expensive to repair.
Cheers,
Simon.
K4TRV said:
PeterC said:
Snippity - .... Plus aluminium gives better cooling.Snip
Totally agree with prices - changed mine for a Copper Recon Unit (Landrover) last year £130 plus fitting.
Sorry to be a Pedant Peter !!
The Conduction coefficient (k) of Copper (Annealed) is: 2715
Conduction coefficient (k) of Aluminum is: 1420
Ratio is 1.91:1 (almost 2:1)
Copper is more efficient at transfer of heat.
However, Copper is approximately twice the price of Aluminum.
So the dilema is twice the size, but same cost for same cooling - but cheaper assembly of Ally/plastic assemblies - don't know if it will last any longer (provided proper antifreeze mixture used) -. QED
//pedant off//
Trev McM
Trev, we don't mind you being a pedant so long as you are also being technically accurate. See my own and Steve Heath's comments on the overheating thread.
Aluminium rads. are not less efficient than copper ones!!
>> Edited by Martin_S on Wednesday 26th January 23:22
JonRB said:
Trev, we don't mind you being a pedant so long as you are also being technically accurate.
Copper rads. are not less efficient than ally ones!!
Which is probably why he wrote:
K4TRV said:
Copper is more efficient at transfer of heat.
Jon,
Thank you !!
Trev McM
K4TRV said:
Martin_S said:
Trev, we don't mind you being a pedant so long as you are also being technically accurate.
Copper rads. are not less efficient than ally ones!!
Which is probably why he wrote:
K4TRV said:
Copper is more efficient at transfer of heat.
Jon,
Thank you !!
Trev McM
But he also wrote:
K4TRV said:
So the dilema is twice the size, but same cost for same cooling
and, on the overheating thread..
K4TRV said:
I hope your "upgrade" is at least 2:1 bigger in size otherwise you may not achieve your "...can not have too much cooling...."
...which is pure, unadulterated bollox.
An alloy radiator does not have to be twice the physical size of a copper one to give the same cooling capacity.
As I said in the overheating thread, limiting factor is heat transfer capacity of air; so long as the radiator material is capable of conducting heat at least as fast as the air can carry it away, the thermal conductivity of the material it is made from is plain irrelevant.
As Steve Heath pointed out, since aluminium is much lighter than brass, you can acheive greater surface area for the same weight with an alloy radiator, therefore ali is potentially more efficient, not less!
I gave consideration to a recore in my Griff, decided i didnt want to send mine off and chose to buy posh ally one, as mentioned on other threads. The ally ones look great, not that appearances should sway you ! Hope to fit it this weekend, so we will see if it is a direct replacement.
Martin_S said:
JonRB said:
Martin_S said:
Trev, we don't mind you being a pedant so long as you are also being technically accurate.
Copper rads. are not less efficient than ally ones!!
Which is probably why he wrote:
K4TRV said:
Copper is more efficient at transfer of heat.
Jon,
Thank you !!
Trev McM
But he also wrote:
K4TRV said:
So the dilema is twice the size, but same cost for same cooling
and, on the overheating thread..
K4TRV said:
I hope your "upgrade" is at least 2:1 bigger in size otherwise you may not achieve your "...can not have too much cooling...."
...which is pure, unadulterated bollox.
An alloy radiator does not have to be twice the physical size of a copper one to give the same cooling capacity.
As I said in the overheating thread, limiting factor is heat transfer capacity of air; so long as the radiator material is capable of conducting heat at least as fast as the air can carry it away, the thermal conductivity of the material it is made from is plain irrelevant.
As Steve Heath pointed out, since aluminium is much lighter than brass, you can acheive greater surface area for the same weight with an alloy radiator, therefore ali is potentially more efficient, not less!
Watch my lips:
Copper is almost twice as efficient at transfer of heat than Aluminum.
It's physics, I said nothing about design, and don't infer I am talking bollox. It's simply physics.
You can design a wooden radiator to be more efficient, but it does not remove the fact that COPPER IS ALMOST TWICE AS EFFICIENT AS ALUMINUM IN REMOVING HEAT.
QED, end of topic as far as I am concerned.
Trev McM
I do not dispute that copper has twice the thermal conductivity of aluminium. Agreed!
What I dispute is that:
Air ultimately removes the heat from the cooling system, and the rate at which it does so is down to the surface emissivity of the material it is in contact with, the surface area, and the temperature differential (which is effectively also related to the rate of air flow over the surface).
The surface emissivity of copper is NOT twice that of aluminium.
What you seem to be failing to understand is that the 'bottleneck' in any cooling system is the rate of heat transfer from the surface of the radiator to the air. Copper can transmit heat from the side that is in contact with the hot water to the side that is in contact with cool air as fast as it jolly well likes, and it won't make a blind bit of difference - the heat will just sit there waiting for the air to carry it off, which it will do in its own sweet time, at a rate completely independent of(and much lower than) the conductivity of the copper.
You have twice
VERY CLEARLY implied that an aluminium radiator would need to be twice as big as a copper one to provide the same level of cooling:
These specific statements are incorrect and misleading.
These specific statements were, are, and always will remain BOLLOX
What I dispute is that:
k4trv said:
COPPER IS ALMOST TWICE AS EFFICIENT AS ALUMINUM IN REMOVING HEAT.
Air ultimately removes the heat from the cooling system, and the rate at which it does so is down to the surface emissivity of the material it is in contact with, the surface area, and the temperature differential (which is effectively also related to the rate of air flow over the surface).
The surface emissivity of copper is NOT twice that of aluminium.
What you seem to be failing to understand is that the 'bottleneck' in any cooling system is the rate of heat transfer from the surface of the radiator to the air. Copper can transmit heat from the side that is in contact with the hot water to the side that is in contact with cool air as fast as it jolly well likes, and it won't make a blind bit of difference - the heat will just sit there waiting for the air to carry it off, which it will do in its own sweet time, at a rate completely independent of(and much lower than) the conductivity of the copper.
You have twice
VERY CLEARLY implied that an aluminium radiator would need to be twice as big as a copper one to provide the same level of cooling: K4TRV said:
So the dilema is twice the size, but same cost for same cooling
K4TRV said:
I hope your "upgrade" is at least 2:1 bigger in size otherwise you may not achieve your "...can not have too much cooling...."
These specific statements are incorrect and misleading.
These specific statements were, are, and always will remain
BOLLOX The answer to "which is more efficient" is a very complex one. Aluminium is predominantly used today because 25yrs ago it was much cheaper than copper. Heat exchanger design has come a long way since then along with advances in manufacture including Controlled Atmosphere Brazing. Today's designs include dimpled tubes and clever louvred fins were not available in the copper/brass rads of yesteryear. So it's not an "aples for aples" comparison really but I can tell you that copper has a better coefficient of thermal conductivity. And some OEM's are looking at cu/brass again!
N17 TVR said:
So it's not an "aples for aples" comparison really
An 'aple' ? Rog, is that a very small apple ?
I know you know your onions when it comes to coolant systems but obviously not when it comes to fruit !
Some say (you mostly) I'm top bannana when it comes to cooling. There's no damned spoilchecker on this system though.....
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