5ltr in a 4ltr
Discussion
Hi.
I am thinking about the 5ltr green one on eBay that was originally a 4ltr, does anyone have any thoughts on this?, it appears to have most of the normal issues dealt with, but I am new to the so thought I should ask your advice.
The price of a 5ltr seems about 10k more than a 4ltr, is this because of rarity?, would I be right in thinking that this one will never have the value of a genuine 5ltr?.
What about fitting the carb instead of injection?.
I will only be doing a few thousand miles a year on sunny days and just want the power and sound that the tvr appears to offer.
Any thoughts greatly appreciated
I am thinking about the 5ltr green one on eBay that was originally a 4ltr, does anyone have any thoughts on this?, it appears to have most of the normal issues dealt with, but I am new to the so thought I should ask your advice.
The price of a 5ltr seems about 10k more than a 4ltr, is this because of rarity?, would I be right in thinking that this one will never have the value of a genuine 5ltr?.
What about fitting the carb instead of injection?.
I will only be doing a few thousand miles a year on sunny days and just want the power and sound that the tvr appears to offer.
Any thoughts greatly appreciated
I guess it depends whether you concern yourself about what it's worth ... mine's a 4.0HC that's just being rebuilt as a 5.0.
I buy cars because they have a purpose - the Tiv was bought because it was something I wanted - I don't see it as having any actual "value" beyond the enjoyment I get from it.
In my head I paid £7,500 for it and I guess I still presume it's worth about half that at best ... but the fact is that it's had the ECU and engine loom replaced (£2k), outriggers done (£1,500), new gearbox fitted and new engine built (£7k), it's getting 4pot Brembos going on it next (£700 with the 16" wheels and tyres) and so much else "sorted" on it over the last six years so who knows what it's actually 'worth'? At the end of the day I guess it's worth what someone else will pay for it.
Phil
I buy cars because they have a purpose - the Tiv was bought because it was something I wanted - I don't see it as having any actual "value" beyond the enjoyment I get from it.
In my head I paid £7,500 for it and I guess I still presume it's worth about half that at best ... but the fact is that it's had the ECU and engine loom replaced (£2k), outriggers done (£1,500), new gearbox fitted and new engine built (£7k), it's getting 4pot Brembos going on it next (£700 with the 16" wheels and tyres) and so much else "sorted" on it over the last six years so who knows what it's actually 'worth'? At the end of the day I guess it's worth what someone else will pay for it.
Phil
If you are sure know your own mind, and sunny summer Sundays are your driving territory, then take your time and buy the car, regardless of the engine size, that is in the best possible condition, so you can enjoy car shows as well. All the cars have stunning performance and individuality, respective of engine size, and stock, unadulterated cars will hold their value best. Keep the mileage well under 50,000.
If, like the previous poster and me, despite advancing years (already advanced in my case) you are still controlled by your inner teen hooligan, then his comments are spot on. I too bought a 4 litre car, started doing track days, started looking for a bit more power, then someone dangled the carrot of a fair bit more power and I too upgraded the engine to 5 litres, added bigger brakes, bigger wheels and tyres to accommodate them, adjustable suspension, a roll cage, clutch servo, better seats. The only thing I haven't changed is the spanner behind the wheel, but I am from time to time told (in between friendly abuse) that even he has improved a little. I have spent more modifying the car that the original purchase price, and will keep on spending. And I love it, and will in time refurbish the chassis, freshen up the engine and respray it.
But mine had 67,000 miles on it when I bought it and now has 97,000 miles on it, so I have already killed the resale value. And I don't care.
It's make up your mind time. Do you want a fun Sunday car for road use, or a bit of a beast for track/sprint/road use? If the latter, then the car you are looking at makes a lot of sense, but make sure that the mileage is sensible and the chassis has been receiving proper attention. You are welcome to come and try my car, just email me, and with any car you buy, try to get it inspected by someone who knows what they are looking at. Try to buy off someone on here if you can - they are a good bunch of people and genuine in 99% of cases.
If, like the previous poster and me, despite advancing years (already advanced in my case) you are still controlled by your inner teen hooligan, then his comments are spot on. I too bought a 4 litre car, started doing track days, started looking for a bit more power, then someone dangled the carrot of a fair bit more power and I too upgraded the engine to 5 litres, added bigger brakes, bigger wheels and tyres to accommodate them, adjustable suspension, a roll cage, clutch servo, better seats. The only thing I haven't changed is the spanner behind the wheel, but I am from time to time told (in between friendly abuse) that even he has improved a little. I have spent more modifying the car that the original purchase price, and will keep on spending. And I love it, and will in time refurbish the chassis, freshen up the engine and respray it.
But mine had 67,000 miles on it when I bought it and now has 97,000 miles on it, so I have already killed the resale value. And I don't care.
It's make up your mind time. Do you want a fun Sunday car for road use, or a bit of a beast for track/sprint/road use? If the latter, then the car you are looking at makes a lot of sense, but make sure that the mileage is sensible and the chassis has been receiving proper attention. You are welcome to come and try my car, just email me, and with any car you buy, try to get it inspected by someone who knows what they are looking at. Try to buy off someone on here if you can - they are a good bunch of people and genuine in 99% of cases.
I purchased a 4 to 5ltr conversion in the spring with 80,000 on the clock. It was £9200
There are some gaps in the history, but it is essentially the old block rebuilt as a 5 litre, V8 Developments top (gas flowed port matched heads, larger inlet plenum etc), running a megasquirt ECU with coil packs. The conversion was done some time around 2012, with about 8000 miles on the car since the work was completed. It also had gearbox and diff rebuilt, uprated roll bars, bigger cosworth discs and brakes at the front, outriggers done, new bushes, gaz gold shocks, front end respray, new seats and a load of other work before I got it. Apparently it pushes out 310bhp, but I have not had it on a rolling road/dyno to check myself.
It still could do with new carpets and roof to be perfect in my eyes.
I have done a fair bit of tidying, cleaning and polishing. I have also put a new induction kit on, new Y piece and fixed some minor niggles. Just had the car valued at £12000 for insurance, and suspect with a bit more work, new carpets and roof it will be around £15000 to £17000. Not sure if it will ever sell for that, but from an insurance point of view I think that is about right.
I think as prices for genuine 500s go up over the next few years and possibly beyond the reach of some people who want a weekend/track missile, the modified 400s like these will become more desirable, which may push up prices a little but not to genuine, low mileage 500 prices. If you can buy a car that has already been modified, then it should be cheaper than doing it yourself assuming it has been done well.
I personally was not bothered by the higher mileage on mine when I got it, as all the important stuff had been rebuilt. I would much rather have it that way that get a mid or even low mileage car that was about to need new cams, gearbox refurb, diff refurb, chassis work etc
The carb route is an interesting one, but not that common on TVR V8. Carbs seems to be the preferred route for a lot of the 7 style and cobra kit V8 based cars. A car running carbs that are well set up should not be a problem, but it may be seen as less desirable come resale time. Given the number of ECU options out there that work well with the RV8, you could always make the change back to the ECU and injectors, but that would not be cheap job. The ECU on these has never struck me as being a real problem area to be honest - it is not one of the areas that seems to give loads of issues on the forums. Granted the original ECU is limited in it tuning options, but it does appear to be a relatively reliable unit.
As ever, make sure you check the history to see what has been done or not in the past, check the chassis (pay attention to the outriggers at the corners) and suspension arms, check the electrics work. Check for damp in the footwells, behind the seats and in the boot. Start it from stone cold and see how it behaves, drive it until it is hot, then switch it off and wait a few minutes before trying to start it up again and see how it behaves. Check as much as you can really and make sure you are happy with it. If this is the first TVR you are looking at try and take somebody along with you who knows what to look at as you will just be wowed by the sound and power. Where are you based?
There are some gaps in the history, but it is essentially the old block rebuilt as a 5 litre, V8 Developments top (gas flowed port matched heads, larger inlet plenum etc), running a megasquirt ECU with coil packs. The conversion was done some time around 2012, with about 8000 miles on the car since the work was completed. It also had gearbox and diff rebuilt, uprated roll bars, bigger cosworth discs and brakes at the front, outriggers done, new bushes, gaz gold shocks, front end respray, new seats and a load of other work before I got it. Apparently it pushes out 310bhp, but I have not had it on a rolling road/dyno to check myself.
It still could do with new carpets and roof to be perfect in my eyes.
I have done a fair bit of tidying, cleaning and polishing. I have also put a new induction kit on, new Y piece and fixed some minor niggles. Just had the car valued at £12000 for insurance, and suspect with a bit more work, new carpets and roof it will be around £15000 to £17000. Not sure if it will ever sell for that, but from an insurance point of view I think that is about right.
I think as prices for genuine 500s go up over the next few years and possibly beyond the reach of some people who want a weekend/track missile, the modified 400s like these will become more desirable, which may push up prices a little but not to genuine, low mileage 500 prices. If you can buy a car that has already been modified, then it should be cheaper than doing it yourself assuming it has been done well.
I personally was not bothered by the higher mileage on mine when I got it, as all the important stuff had been rebuilt. I would much rather have it that way that get a mid or even low mileage car that was about to need new cams, gearbox refurb, diff refurb, chassis work etc
The carb route is an interesting one, but not that common on TVR V8. Carbs seems to be the preferred route for a lot of the 7 style and cobra kit V8 based cars. A car running carbs that are well set up should not be a problem, but it may be seen as less desirable come resale time. Given the number of ECU options out there that work well with the RV8, you could always make the change back to the ECU and injectors, but that would not be cheap job. The ECU on these has never struck me as being a real problem area to be honest - it is not one of the areas that seems to give loads of issues on the forums. Granted the original ECU is limited in it tuning options, but it does appear to be a relatively reliable unit.
As ever, make sure you check the history to see what has been done or not in the past, check the chassis (pay attention to the outriggers at the corners) and suspension arms, check the electrics work. Check for damp in the footwells, behind the seats and in the boot. Start it from stone cold and see how it behaves, drive it until it is hot, then switch it off and wait a few minutes before trying to start it up again and see how it behaves. Check as much as you can really and make sure you are happy with it. If this is the first TVR you are looking at try and take somebody along with you who knows what to look at as you will just be wowed by the sound and power. Where are you based?
I find the "low mileage" thing interesting...
Mine's a '94 car ... which makes it 21 years old. I bought it six years ago at 68,000 miles which comes out at 4,500 (ish) miles a year although looking at the previous 3 years MOTs it had done about 1,000 miles a year ... TBH at that I'm more worried about the mileage being too low and it having been sat and not used enough.
My view on it is that a low mileage example is more likely to have spent a greater proportion of its life being "ragged" (i.e. taken out on odd days and spanked hard) than one that's been driven regularly (because if you drive them every day you know you can't cane them all the time or you'll lose your license within a month).
No?
Phil
Mine's a '94 car ... which makes it 21 years old. I bought it six years ago at 68,000 miles which comes out at 4,500 (ish) miles a year although looking at the previous 3 years MOTs it had done about 1,000 miles a year ... TBH at that I'm more worried about the mileage being too low and it having been sat and not used enough.
My view on it is that a low mileage example is more likely to have spent a greater proportion of its life being "ragged" (i.e. taken out on odd days and spanked hard) than one that's been driven regularly (because if you drive them every day you know you can't cane them all the time or you'll lose your license within a month).
No?
Phil
Hi, I am based near Shrewsbury, if there is anyone nearby I would love to have a chat and a proper look at one?
To check for damp in these areas do I need to lift the carpets?, the one I am considering says it has a new roof and carpets, where do the water leaks come from?
As for the bigger engine, does it also need upgraded gearbox, brakes, tyres etc, or are they the same?
It's usage will just be general fun on a sunny day and a few trips out, at the moment I have a 7 type car with a bike engine, so I'm actually looking at the tvr to be a more practical second car😁
Thanks for everyone's comments so far
To check for damp in these areas do I need to lift the carpets?, the one I am considering says it has a new roof and carpets, where do the water leaks come from?
As for the bigger engine, does it also need upgraded gearbox, brakes, tyres etc, or are they the same?
It's usage will just be general fun on a sunny day and a few trips out, at the moment I have a 7 type car with a bike engine, so I'm actually looking at the tvr to be a more practical second car😁
Thanks for everyone's comments so far
There are plenty of owners up your way, particularly near Brm.
Gearbox is the same, if the clutch was done at the same time as the engine then it will be the standard 5litre one. It would be short sighted to have had the engine and gearbox out and separated and not replace the clutch, so check.
The brakes will be the same across the range, and they are ok. If you want more bite cheaply, then put better pads in.
If you want better brakes for track days, there are upgrade options that keep your standard wheels and those that don't, but budget the best part of a grand. Plus wheels and tyres if you go over 300mm disks.
I am in East Midlands, so if your target car is in Notts, Derbys, Leics, lincs, south Yorks, Coventry, Birmingham areas I will happily come and kick tyres with you. Email me through PH, or post on here, and we can arrange it.
Gearbox is the same, if the clutch was done at the same time as the engine then it will be the standard 5litre one. It would be short sighted to have had the engine and gearbox out and separated and not replace the clutch, so check.
The brakes will be the same across the range, and they are ok. If you want more bite cheaply, then put better pads in.
If you want better brakes for track days, there are upgrade options that keep your standard wheels and those that don't, but budget the best part of a grand. Plus wheels and tyres if you go over 300mm disks.
I am in East Midlands, so if your target car is in Notts, Derbys, Leics, lincs, south Yorks, Coventry, Birmingham areas I will happily come and kick tyres with you. Email me through PH, or post on here, and we can arrange it.
I've looked at the same one on ebay. I'm also looking for my first TVR. The 5lt engine in that one does not appear to be the same as in a 500 Chim, but I know V8 developments work on Rover V8's so it should be very nearly the same. My only issue with this one was that it wasn't an original anymore. This is important to me. But... it's a great way to get 500 performance for 400 money. However to me originality is winning over power.
Paulprior said:
Hi, I am based near Shrewsbury, if there is anyone nearby I would love to have a chat and a proper look at one?
To check for damp in these areas do I need to lift the carpets?, the one I am considering says it has a new roof and carpets, where do the water leaks come from?
As for the bigger engine, does it also need upgraded gearbox, brakes, tyres etc, or are they the same?
It's usage will just be general fun on a sunny day and a few trips out, at the moment I have a 7 type car with a bike engine, so I'm actually looking at the tvr to be a more practical second car??
Thanks for everyone's comments so far
Yes, just lift the carpets up and have a poke around. Check at the end of the foot wells and by the seat belt mounts. Unless the seller is really careless you will not find any water, but look for signs and smells of previous water ingress.To check for damp in these areas do I need to lift the carpets?, the one I am considering says it has a new roof and carpets, where do the water leaks come from?
As for the bigger engine, does it also need upgraded gearbox, brakes, tyres etc, or are they the same?
It's usage will just be general fun on a sunny day and a few trips out, at the moment I have a 7 type car with a bike engine, so I'm actually looking at the tvr to be a more practical second car??
Thanks for everyone's comments so far
Clutch would have been a sensible upgrade while the work was being done and would be worth checking in the history.
These are not heavy cars and even standard brakes are ok, better pads make a difference. Bigger brakes can be fitted, but at a cost if you end up needing bigger wheels as well - I would personally stick with standard wheels unless you are doing lots of track stuff.
Being honest, if you want a practical 2nd car from your TVR stick with the 400, or possibly a 430 or 450. You may find it much easier to drive day in day out, with less chance of it throwing you in to a ditch on a wet day. They also run a bit cooler than the 500 from my experience and may be better sat in traffic - although a properly sorted 500 with a good cooling system is also ok. They are still pretty quick and also look and sound good. You will get a much nicer and sorted 400 for the same money a a poor 500, and are paying a premium for the 500, even a rebuilt upgraded 400/500.
The best thing you can do is go and try a few - pop along to a dealer to check out the differences even of you intend to buy private in the end, or find your local TVR CC meeting, or hunt down some owners via PH.
I am not sure that I ever bought a TVR with a view of an investment...
I just wanted one - and I am glad I picked the Chim for so many reasons - I like to tinker with cars (without fixing them so they no longer work!), I don't give a toss about fuel consumption (we have a 64 diesel for that) and I wanted a huge grin factor (got that) as a start......
5.0 or 4.0 is irrelevant really - they are pretty fast - but not "really" fast. If you want to go really fast, get a bike (my last bike was a 1400 ZZR - trust me, thats real speed but also doubles as a mobile-donor-card!) - and no car I will ever own will give me that sort of rush...
But - go in with your eyes wide open - it could cost you to LOT keep the car good. It could only cost a few quid but like with most cars, you do have to look after them and that generally costs money.
Best of luck with your search!
Nosh.
I just wanted one - and I am glad I picked the Chim for so many reasons - I like to tinker with cars (without fixing them so they no longer work!), I don't give a toss about fuel consumption (we have a 64 diesel for that) and I wanted a huge grin factor (got that) as a start......
5.0 or 4.0 is irrelevant really - they are pretty fast - but not "really" fast. If you want to go really fast, get a bike (my last bike was a 1400 ZZR - trust me, thats real speed but also doubles as a mobile-donor-card!) - and no car I will ever own will give me that sort of rush...
But - go in with your eyes wide open - it could cost you to LOT keep the car good. It could only cost a few quid but like with most cars, you do have to look after them and that generally costs money.
Best of luck with your search!
Nosh.
Smokey Boyer said:
Being honest, if you want a practical 2nd car from your TVR stick with the 400, or possibly a 430 or 450. You may find it much easier to drive day in day out, with less chance of it throwing you in to a ditch on a wet day. They also run a bit cooler than the 500 from my experience and may be better sat in traffic - although a properly sorted 500 with a good cooling system is also ok. They are still pretty quick and also look and sound good. You will get a much nicer and sorted 400 for the same money a a poor 500, and are paying a premium for the 500, even a rebuilt upgraded 400/500.
The best thing you can do is go and try a few - pop along to a dealer to check out the differences even of you intend to buy private in the end, or find your local TVR CC meeting, or hunt down some owners via PH.
I agree. The best thing you can do is go and try a few - pop along to a dealer to check out the differences even of you intend to buy private in the end, or find your local TVR CC meeting, or hunt down some owners via PH.
Having had a 400 for three years before swapping to a 500, I think the 400 is easier to drive day in day out - and with less torque than the 500 less likely to throw you in a ditch..
A pal of mine also had a 400 then 500, and this gave us a chance to drive each others cars over a good distance and it was surprising just how much difference there was 400 to 400 and 500 to 500. So again, good advice earlier - drive a few to see what suits.
Good luck.
Danattheopticians said:
I've looked at the same one on ebay. I'm also looking for my first TVR. The 5lt engine in that one does not appear to be the same as in a 500 Chim, but I know V8 developments work on Rover V8's so it should be very nearly the same. My only issue with this one was that it wasn't an original anymore. This is important to me. But... it's a great way to get 500 performance for 400 money. However to me originality is winning over power.
Hi, do you have any other thoughts or comments after looking at this one, general condition etc?Danattheopticians said:
I've looked at the same one on ebay. I'm also looking for my first TVR. The 5lt engine in that one does not appear to be the same as in a 500 Chim, but I know V8 developments work on Rover V8's so it should be very nearly the same. My only issue with this one was that it wasn't an original anymore. This is important to me. But... it's a great way to get 500 performance for 400 money. However to me originality is winning over power.
Hi, do you have any other thoughts or comments after looking at this one, general condition etc?Dominic TVRetto said:
IIRC think some early 4l may have had smaller front brakes - have 240mm in my head..? Can anyone confirm..?
Double-check if so, as I think its a cheap upgrade to get the later spec brakes...
HTH,
Dom
The first cars had 240mm discs on the front and non-vented, similar sized discs on the rears. If they are in good condition, they work fine for most use. I changed to 260mm on the front and found the brakes to be excellent without changing to the larger vented rear discs.Double-check if so, as I think its a cheap upgrade to get the later spec brakes...
HTH,
Dom
Paulprior said:
Does anyone have any thoughts about Insurance on modified cars, does it change it much or difficult to find an insurer?
Thanks
I use Classicline (01455 639000). They will do you a limited mileage policy for surprisingly little. You don't need, not do you earn, a no claims discount, but they look at your driving history and the kind of cars you are used to....but not too hard. I seriously modified mine (added a shed load of stuff including 80 BHP. Notified them and they made a note and said "thank you. No change to the premium."Thanks
Their view seems to be if you aren't likely to crash a standard 4 litre Chim, then you are no more likely to crash a modified 5 litre one. So far, so good.....
Hi, I did consider the 4ltr, and I'm sure they are great fun, but I can't help think I would always wonder how much more fun a 5 might be?.
I'm not after the car as an investment but maybe not a long term keep, maybe 2 years as I would like to experience a variety of cars, so I would hope to not loose too much.
Thanks
Paul
I'm not after the car as an investment but maybe not a long term keep, maybe 2 years as I would like to experience a variety of cars, so I would hope to not loose too much.
Thanks
Paul
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