First motorway drive in my new Chim - hmmm
Discussion
Recently became an owner of a '95 400HC and I would say it is a sorted car. Outriggers and cam renewed, ACT Y piece, OEM backbox, act trumpets, plenum spacer, silicone intake, gaz golds.
So far I had to change a couple of shot upper bushes on a front wishbone then had the car 4 wheel Geo'd, had the wheels balanced and one wheel straightend as it was square. The stepper motor has been cleaned, the engine oil changed and the ECU reset. There is a blowing manifold at the 4-1 join which is going to be repaired this week.
So took it on the motorway to the next town today, about 50 miles away and I must say it was not a relaxing drive.
Even though it tracked straight and the steering was not pulling to one side, at only 80 the suspension felt loose, I cant say I was relaxed. I could feel the front wheels through the steering wheel constantly as if the suspension was connected together with rubber bands, with the steering wheel twitching about over every imperfection in the road.
Also trying to maintain this speed was difficult as there was what I can only describe as a slight on and off feeling, the engine was not smooth at a constant speed,at around 2500-3000 revs, and this only went away if I accelerated, or cruised at a higher speed. It sometimes does this in town at low speeds while I am in slow traffic, as if my wheels have become egg shaped. The car doesn't jump around or kangaroo, just this slight on and off feeling.
It's great to drive on twisty country lanes but at the moment compared to this my lowered modified R53 MCS feels like a limo on the motorway.
If I did a full 12k service and changed all the wishbone bushes will it make a difference or do they all drive like this?
So far I had to change a couple of shot upper bushes on a front wishbone then had the car 4 wheel Geo'd, had the wheels balanced and one wheel straightend as it was square. The stepper motor has been cleaned, the engine oil changed and the ECU reset. There is a blowing manifold at the 4-1 join which is going to be repaired this week.
So took it on the motorway to the next town today, about 50 miles away and I must say it was not a relaxing drive.
Even though it tracked straight and the steering was not pulling to one side, at only 80 the suspension felt loose, I cant say I was relaxed. I could feel the front wheels through the steering wheel constantly as if the suspension was connected together with rubber bands, with the steering wheel twitching about over every imperfection in the road.
Also trying to maintain this speed was difficult as there was what I can only describe as a slight on and off feeling, the engine was not smooth at a constant speed,at around 2500-3000 revs, and this only went away if I accelerated, or cruised at a higher speed. It sometimes does this in town at low speeds while I am in slow traffic, as if my wheels have become egg shaped. The car doesn't jump around or kangaroo, just this slight on and off feeling.
It's great to drive on twisty country lanes but at the moment compared to this my lowered modified R53 MCS feels like a limo on the motorway.
If I did a full 12k service and changed all the wishbone bushes will it make a difference or do they all drive like this?
Edited by jazzdude on Monday 9th November 22:00
No, they're not all like that but they are tactile cars and very sensitive to set up and tyre pressures etc. Was the geo job done by someone familiar with TVRs and with access to known good data? I ask as I once had a full set-up done by an acknowledged motorsport expert who made it feel like it wanted to kill me on anything but glacier smooth surfaces. A quick search will turn up the settings recommended by Neil Anderson, that provides a good stable base.
Ride height can do odd stuff if too low overall and the rear is supposed to sit a tad higher than the front - check the castor shims are in the recommended positions; they have been known to be the wrong side of the front ball joints.
Shot bushes won't help clearly but maybe the problem is also the ball joints, which do take a hammering in the same sort of mileage as kills the bushes - also check the integrity of the wishbones themselves, especially the front uppers, which can corrode enough to get flexi or even fail.
Mismatched tyres front and rear won't help feel or stability, and try searching pressures for your tyre sizes; you might be surprised by the low pressures recommended and not impossible you might be well over what works.
Probably not the issue on motorway driving but rear ARB drop links can pull out of the mounting cross braces on the lower rear wishbones. Loads of material on here about pros and cons of various solutions ranging from real heavy duty stuff to repair/beef up to just get rid of the rear ARB completely (my favourite).
Keep persevering; it'll be worth it when it comes good.
Ride height can do odd stuff if too low overall and the rear is supposed to sit a tad higher than the front - check the castor shims are in the recommended positions; they have been known to be the wrong side of the front ball joints.
Shot bushes won't help clearly but maybe the problem is also the ball joints, which do take a hammering in the same sort of mileage as kills the bushes - also check the integrity of the wishbones themselves, especially the front uppers, which can corrode enough to get flexi or even fail.
Mismatched tyres front and rear won't help feel or stability, and try searching pressures for your tyre sizes; you might be surprised by the low pressures recommended and not impossible you might be well over what works.
Probably not the issue on motorway driving but rear ARB drop links can pull out of the mounting cross braces on the lower rear wishbones. Loads of material on here about pros and cons of various solutions ranging from real heavy duty stuff to repair/beef up to just get rid of the rear ARB completely (my favourite).
Keep persevering; it'll be worth it when it comes good.
Tyre pressures are 22 psi (1.5 bar) front and 24 psi (1.6 bar) rear with most tyres.
If it has been anywhere near a tyre shop it will be at 30-35psi all round and will feel awful.
The other most common reason they try to kill you is incorrect 4wheel geo, or none at all. They are very sensitive to incorrect geo and ride height. Do you have a side on pic of the car and your 4wheel geo print out for us to check please?
If it has been anywhere near a tyre shop it will be at 30-35psi all round and will feel awful.
The other most common reason they try to kill you is incorrect 4wheel geo, or none at all. They are very sensitive to incorrect geo and ride height. Do you have a side on pic of the car and your 4wheel geo print out for us to check please?
The geo details were sent to the technician directly from Hunter and I checked them against the ones I found on here and they were the same.
The shims are both in front of the ball joint if that is ok.
It has leven drop links at the back but what look like oem at the front, and the tyre pressures are 22/24 front/back.
What do you think about this on/off engine at constant speeds? Will the full service fix that?
The shims are both in front of the ball joint if that is ok.
It has leven drop links at the back but what look like oem at the front, and the tyre pressures are 22/24 front/back.
What do you think about this on/off engine at constant speeds? Will the full service fix that?
On the last point, have a look at the plenum end of the throttle cable. If it has two parallel return springs just under te windscreen apron, try removing one and then try driving at 2500-3000 rpm again. My second one was removed 30,000 miles ago, it removal has not caused a problem, and it makes the car nicer to drive. I keep the spare in my tool kit in the boot.....just in case.
shouldnt be like that, my chim would sit on the motorway at 120+ all day without any white knuckles ( I've even got a nice certificate from a frenchman to prove 135 lol)
sounds like it could be too low and or two hard. check if there are any witness marks on the top of the wheel arches to see if the tyres have been bottoming.
I had a front damper loose its compression damping once, and that was an interesting ride on the motorway.
Also once testing someone elses car the dampers were wound up so hard I had to stop on the hard shoulder to soften them off !!! the think was undrivable on a concrete motorway
sounds like it could be too low and or two hard. check if there are any witness marks on the top of the wheel arches to see if the tyres have been bottoming.
I had a front damper loose its compression damping once, and that was an interesting ride on the motorway.
Also once testing someone elses car the dampers were wound up so hard I had to stop on the hard shoulder to soften them off !!! the think was undrivable on a concrete motorway
When I bought mine it came with Bridgestone S02's I think they were. Anyway what they were is largely irrelevant the problem was they were too old and the rubber was as hard as old boots. You didn't really notice round the doors but my God I thought the car was lethal on the motorway. It just didn't feel connected to the road at all like driving on glass. I put new tyres on and voila it was brilliant, also since added a front splitter which has surprisingly also improved matters. Hope you get sorted as they are really relaxing to cruise in, we've done 4 euro trips over 2,500 each and pretty much most of it motorway and it's been a joy.
jazzdude said:
Also trying to maintain this speed was difficult as there was what I can only describe as a slight on and off feeling, the engine was not smooth at a constant speed,at around 2500-3000 revs, and this only went away if I accelerated, or cruised at a higher speed. It sometimes does this in town at low speeds while I am in slow traffic, as if my wheels have become egg shaped. The car doesn't jump around or kangaroo, just this slight on and off feeling.
The monetary loss of power you describe is something others have reported, indeed when I was still on the 14CUX and distributor I had it myself. The issue is almost certainly a momentary but complete loss of ignition, followed by it almost immediately returning thus giving you the lurching you describe.Edited by jazzdude on Monday 9th November 22:00
I never did find out what it was on my car, mostly because I replaced the entire original fuel & ignition setup with the far superior Canems engine management system. My guess is the +12v feed to the coil was being lost for a split second and then returning. You could prove or disprove this theory by simply rigging up a bulb taking the live feed from the positive side of the coil.
Run your wires back to the cabin and hang the bulb over the dash in front of the speedo so you can see it easily, if you're losing +12v to the coil the bulb will flash as you drive in harmony with the lurching. Once you've established issue is related to an intermittent loss of +12v to the coil then comes the tricky but of finding where the fault is.
If the bulb doesn't flash you've got to start looking for a momentary cut in the fuel supply, but if your loss off power is momentary & abrupt followed by its immediate return I very much doubt it's fuel related as a loss of fuel would be a much softer experience.
But to completely eliminate the fuel cut theory simply repeat your bulb test this time taking the +12v feed from the ECU live brown wire at pin 15 on the ECU. Repeat the test on the black ECU earth at ECU pin 14 using a good known live feed (direct from the battery) for your bulb rig.
It's worth remembering that TVR used the Range Rover engine bay & ECU loom, they then spliced it to their own wiring. All this wiring is getting on for 20 years old now and much of it has been forced to live in the very high temperature environment of a TVR engine bay, that and TVR's rather poor splicing efforts all conspire to create innumerable potential points of failure.
And I haven't even covered the Meta immobilizer where TVR chose to wire the low amp ECU through the Met high amp relay designed for the starter solenoid, and then wired the higher amp starter solenoid through low amp Meta relay which causes nearly all the "no starts" these cars can suffer from especially when hot.
I'm not trying to scare you, indeed these cars can be extremely reliable, I recommend the +12v test at the coil using the simple bulb rig. Diagnosing faults like this is a case of systematically proving or disproving a series of logical theories, if you follow a systematic approach you'll eventually find your fault for sure.
Good luck and please double check the ECU pin numbers I've given you here...
http://www.britishv8.org/articles/rover-14cux-efi....
I'm no 14CUX expert, but using the above pin chart the main ECU live & earth look like pins 15 & 14 respectively to me.
Edited by ChimpOnGas on Tuesday 10th November 07:00
The first thing I am going to do is renew the main ignition items, sparks, leads, dizzy cap and rotor. I have bought sparks with resistors so I can take out the extenders from the system and will fit thermal boots.
Then I am going to change the fuel filter in case that is caked up as well as the air filter.
The timing will then be checked along with a general clean up of all connections around the coil and ignition system.
I think this will perhaps eliminate the basic stuff as this lot hasn't been changed in over a year from what I understand.
Driving the car this morning on a fast country road, it was again unsettling at high speeds even though the car tracked straight. It just felt loose over bumps and the steering vibrated over every undulation in the road, like driving a jet ski where the momentum keeps you in a straight line.
When I got the top front wishbone off to change the shot bushes the ball joint rubbers looked a little brittle so I suspect there is some play there even though the wheels didn't rock around in the geo test and the tech said it would pass its MOT. I suppose the only way to eliminate the obvious is again to change out all the bushes, ball joints and track rod ends which will give me an opportunity to clean up the metalwork and recoat it all with a good rust paint like Rustoleum (which is available here, unlike POR15).
The funny thing is that even with a clean bill of health from a professional TVR inspection, there is so much these cars need to get them in proper working condition.
Then I am going to change the fuel filter in case that is caked up as well as the air filter.
The timing will then be checked along with a general clean up of all connections around the coil and ignition system.
I think this will perhaps eliminate the basic stuff as this lot hasn't been changed in over a year from what I understand.
Driving the car this morning on a fast country road, it was again unsettling at high speeds even though the car tracked straight. It just felt loose over bumps and the steering vibrated over every undulation in the road, like driving a jet ski where the momentum keeps you in a straight line.
When I got the top front wishbone off to change the shot bushes the ball joint rubbers looked a little brittle so I suspect there is some play there even though the wheels didn't rock around in the geo test and the tech said it would pass its MOT. I suppose the only way to eliminate the obvious is again to change out all the bushes, ball joints and track rod ends which will give me an opportunity to clean up the metalwork and recoat it all with a good rust paint like Rustoleum (which is available here, unlike POR15).
The funny thing is that even with a clean bill of health from a professional TVR inspection, there is so much these cars need to get them in proper working condition.
My Griff is also skittish at motorway speeds. I think amongst, other things, I need to check the age of the tyres. Just found this guide on the net which may be useful for others:
Every tire has a "born-on date" molded into the sidewall and coded according to federal requirements. Near the edge of the rim, look for a long serial number starting with the letters "DOT." The code will end in either three numerals (pre-2000) or four (post 2000) and correspond to the two-digit week followed by the one- or two-digit year. For instance, the tire seen above has a code of DOT DA08 JM1R 3011, which would indicate a tire manufactured in the 30th week of 2011. DOT R5HG FHR 404 would indicate a tire manufactured in the 40th week of 1994 (or 1984, or '74).
Every tire has a "born-on date" molded into the sidewall and coded according to federal requirements. Near the edge of the rim, look for a long serial number starting with the letters "DOT." The code will end in either three numerals (pre-2000) or four (post 2000) and correspond to the two-digit week followed by the one- or two-digit year. For instance, the tire seen above has a code of DOT DA08 JM1R 3011, which would indicate a tire manufactured in the 30th week of 2011. DOT R5HG FHR 404 would indicate a tire manufactured in the 40th week of 1994 (or 1984, or '74).
QBee said:
On the last point, have a look at the plenum end of the throttle cable. If it has two parallel return springs just under te windscreen apron, try removing one and then try driving at 2500-3000 rpm again. My second one was removed 30,000 miles ago, it removal has not caused a problem, and it makes the car nicer to drive. I keep the spare in my tool kit in the boot.....just in case.
This made a big difference to mine. ChimpOnGas said:
The monetary loss of power you describe is something others have reported, indeed when I was still on the 14CUX and distributor I had it myself. The issue is almost certainly a momentary but complete loss of ignition, followed by it almost immediately returning thus giving you the lurching you describe.
I never did find out what it was on my car, mostly because I replaced the entire original fuel & ignition setup with the far superior Canems engine management system. My guess is the +12v feed to the coil was being lost for a split second and then returning. You could prove or disprove this theory by simply rigging up a bulb taking the live feed from the positive side of the coil.
Run your wires back to the cabin and hang the bulb over the dash in front of the speedo so you can see it easily, if you're losing +12v to the coil the bulb will flash as you drive in harmony with the lurching. Once you've established issue is related to an intermittent loss of +12v to the coil then comes the tricky but of finding where the fault is.
If the bulb doesn't flash you've got to start looking for a momentary cut in the fuel supply, but if your loss off power is momentary & abrupt followed by its immediate return I very much doubt it's fuel related as a loss of fuel would be a much softer experience.
But if that's correct, whay would the problem occur at low load/low(ish) rpm and go away with acceleration or high speed cruising? I'm asking because I've been chasing the same problem for quite some time now, and there seems to be nothing Obvious...I never did find out what it was on my car, mostly because I replaced the entire original fuel & ignition setup with the far superior Canems engine management system. My guess is the +12v feed to the coil was being lost for a split second and then returning. You could prove or disprove this theory by simply rigging up a bulb taking the live feed from the positive side of the coil.
Run your wires back to the cabin and hang the bulb over the dash in front of the speedo so you can see it easily, if you're losing +12v to the coil the bulb will flash as you drive in harmony with the lurching. Once you've established issue is related to an intermittent loss of +12v to the coil then comes the tricky but of finding where the fault is.
If the bulb doesn't flash you've got to start looking for a momentary cut in the fuel supply, but if your loss off power is momentary & abrupt followed by its immediate return I very much doubt it's fuel related as a loss of fuel would be a much softer experience.
However, at some point we discovered on Rovergauge that if you gave a firm stab at the throttle a couple of times, the ECU would not go back into closed loop mode when going back to cruising operation, and the air/fuel ratio would go off the scale giving very similar symptoms (the culprit turned out to be a dodgy voltage regulator at the newly replaced alternator which gave 15.7V spikes...) So yes, a fuel fault *can* result in a fairly dramatic shunt/'momentary power cut' feel, too.
Current thinking is that the low load/low rpm mapping is off on the map that had been done with the big AMM, resulting in the A/F drifting off to the point that the ECU will try and get it back in line in a fairly drastic manner, or even as far as outside the closed loop correction bandwith which means it will run perpetually rich and foul a plug or two. I'm hoping to put this to the test with a new 'base' map courtesy of Mark Adams (the Original mapping was done locally).
ohidunno said:
My Griff is also skittish at motorway speeds. I think amongst, other things, I need to check the age of the tyres. Just found this guide on the net which may be useful for others:
Every tire has a "born-on date" molded into the sidewall and coded according to federal requirements. Near the edge of the rim, look for a long serial number starting with the letters "DOT." The code will end in either three numerals (pre-2000) or four (post 2000) and correspond to the two-digit week followed by the one- or two-digit year. For instance, the tire seen above has a code of DOT DA08 JM1R 3011, which would indicate a tire manufactured in the 30th week of 2011. DOT R5HG FHR 404 would indicate a tire manufactured in the 40th week of 1994 (or 1984, or '74).
I realise some may think I'm being pedantic but the word is spelt (or spelled) TYRE in our rich and glorious language.......just realised you're a Griff owner, but whilst this doesn't forgive it does explain. Every tire has a "born-on date" molded into the sidewall and coded according to federal requirements. Near the edge of the rim, look for a long serial number starting with the letters "DOT." The code will end in either three numerals (pre-2000) or four (post 2000) and correspond to the two-digit week followed by the one- or two-digit year. For instance, the tire seen above has a code of DOT DA08 JM1R 3011, which would indicate a tire manufactured in the 30th week of 2011. DOT R5HG FHR 404 would indicate a tire manufactured in the 40th week of 1994 (or 1984, or '74).
(Hope you approve Peter and Anthony
Edited by Richard 858 on Tuesday 10th November 15:16
Richard 858 said:
I realise some may think I'm being pedantic but the word is spelt (or spelled) TYRE in our rich and glorious language.......just realised you're a Griff owner, but whilst this doesn't forgive it does explain.
(Hope you approve Peter and Anthony
(Hope you approve Peter and Anthony
Edited by Richard 858 on Tuesday 10th November 15:16
Dam those Americans!
Took it to have its MOT and the n/s front shock didnt pass.
Gaz Golds were put on in 2009 and speaking to the chap at Gaz, he suggests that maybe the setting is wrong on it, and that side had been dialed too soft. There is no oil leaking showing on the shock so he said it is unlikely it failed and that one side being softer than the other could cause the problems I am having.
His recommendation is to set the front at 10 and the rear at 8, from soft, although it seems a 12/10 setting is preferred on going through some threads.
I'll check the current settings and will let you know how it turns out tomorrow.
As far as the suspension refurb is concerned, I see in the file I have that came with the car that the track rod ends, arb bushes, front wheel bearings/oil seals and drop links (leven rear, oem front) were all changed about 3 years and 12k miles ago. Would you expect these to also need changing with the bushes and ball joints when I take the wishbones off?
Gaz Golds were put on in 2009 and speaking to the chap at Gaz, he suggests that maybe the setting is wrong on it, and that side had been dialed too soft. There is no oil leaking showing on the shock so he said it is unlikely it failed and that one side being softer than the other could cause the problems I am having.
His recommendation is to set the front at 10 and the rear at 8, from soft, although it seems a 12/10 setting is preferred on going through some threads.
I'll check the current settings and will let you know how it turns out tomorrow.
As far as the suspension refurb is concerned, I see in the file I have that came with the car that the track rod ends, arb bushes, front wheel bearings/oil seals and drop links (leven rear, oem front) were all changed about 3 years and 12k miles ago. Would you expect these to also need changing with the bushes and ball joints when I take the wishbones off?
phazed said:
Richard 858 said:
I realise some may think I'm being pedantic but the word is spelt (or spelled) TYRE in our rich and glorious language.......just realised you're a Griff owner, but whilst this doesn't forgive it does explain.
(Hope you approve Peter and Anthony
(Hope you approve Peter and Anthony
Edited by Richard 858 on Tuesday 10th November 15:16
Dam those Americans!
But nevertheless it does grate when we see americanisms, or bad grammar.
Hence why I had a go at this PH journalist......see his first line. My comment is the last post on the thread.
utter ignorance not befitting a journalist
jazzdude said:
Took it to have its MOT and the n/s front shock didnt pass.
Gaz Golds were put on in 2009 and speaking to the chap at Gaz, he suggests that maybe the setting is wrong on it, and that side had been dialed too soft. There is no oil leaking showing on the shock so he said it is unlikely it failed and that one side being softer than the other could cause the problems I am having.
His recommendation is to set the front at 10 and the rear at 8, from soft, although it seems a 12/10 setting is preferred on going through some threads.
I'll check the current settings and will let you know how it turns out tomorrow.
As far as the suspension refurb is concerned, I see in the file I have that came with the car that the track rod ends, arb bushes, front wheel bearings/oil seals and drop links (leven rear, oem front) were all changed about 3 years and 12k miles ago. Would you expect these to also need changing with the bushes and ball joints when I take the wishbones off?
I would agree with Gaz on 10/8 or even 8/6, but it depends on how strong the springs are and how you like your car. They would have to be pretty soft springs, with dampers on minimum, to come close to failing an MOT....unless the other side was set on max hard. The adjuster goes clockwise to increase the hardness, so fully unwind first, then adjust up. Then bounce the wings by hand and compare. Gaz Golds were put on in 2009 and speaking to the chap at Gaz, he suggests that maybe the setting is wrong on it, and that side had been dialed too soft. There is no oil leaking showing on the shock so he said it is unlikely it failed and that one side being softer than the other could cause the problems I am having.
His recommendation is to set the front at 10 and the rear at 8, from soft, although it seems a 12/10 setting is preferred on going through some threads.
I'll check the current settings and will let you know how it turns out tomorrow.
As far as the suspension refurb is concerned, I see in the file I have that came with the car that the track rod ends, arb bushes, front wheel bearings/oil seals and drop links (leven rear, oem front) were all changed about 3 years and 12k miles ago. Would you expect these to also need changing with the bushes and ball joints when I take the wishbones off?
I wouldn't expect any of those components to be knackered. Having said which, I have just had to change out my Leven drop links after 25,000 miles (including 25 track days).9
QBee said:
I wouldn't expect any of those components to be knackered. Having said which, I have just had to change out my Leven drop links after 25,000 miles (including 25 track days).9
I must say though that the track rod ends and the tie rods were quite rusty to the point where they looked siezed and needed a good yank to adjust. Is it just a case of taking it all apart and cleaning them up?jazzdude said:
QBee said:
I wouldn't expect any of those components to be knackered. Having said which, I have just had to change out my Leven drop links after 25,000 miles (including 25 track days).9
I must say though that the track rod ends and the tie rods were quite rusty to the point where they looked siezed and needed a good yank to adjust. Is it just a case of taking it all apart and cleaning them up?QBee said:
Totally approve, Richard. The general standard of spelling and grammar on PH is pretty good, and we don't criticise those who are dyslexic or cannot spell. I just had to go back and stop my iPad autocorrect changing criticise to criticize.
But nevertheless it does grate when we see americanisms, or bad grammar.
Hence why I had a go at this PH journalist......see his first line. My comment is the last post on the thread.
utter ignorance not befitting a journalist
I only copy and pasted. But nevertheless it does grate when we see americanisms, or bad grammar.
Hence why I had a go at this PH journalist......see his first line. My comment is the last post on the thread.
utter ignorance not befitting a journalist
I'm not a bad person.
I even used to drive a Chimaera.
I'm sorry.
Ohidunno
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