Chimaera Market Trend Analysis
Discussion
The purpose of this post is for the PH community to discuss the past, present and future values of our beloved Chimaera. Now I'm sure while many of us will try to say "it's irrelevant because I'm not selling", if we're really honest with ourselves the truth is it's still highly likely to be a topic of interest to us all.
I'll start by saying in my opinion these cars are still grossly undervalued and one of the biggest elements holding Chimaera values back are the private sellers out there who still seem happy to undervalue their cars when selling. On the flip side dealers in TVRs are working hard to fill their pockets and reverse this trend, which does seem to finally be having a positive effect on the market as a whole and personally I only see this as a good thing.
To flesh all this out with some facts and figures I'd like to share the market data I've been collecting for the last five years, firstly the numbers of Chimaeras on the market seems to be pretty consistent at between 50 cars in the winter months to 80 cars in the summer, advertised values do change by season but less than you might think, the final true sale prices on the other hand may well reveal a different picture but as this is unknown I can only really use asking price for my data.
Using a 1997 facelift car as our example I have averaged the dealer vs private sale asking prices over a mix of seasons and can reveal the trend for all three engine variants over the last 5 years looks like this:
More interestingly the same trend analysis can be used to loosely predict how the car will perform moving forward:
The market seems to view pre-facelift cars (Early 1993 - September 1996) as slightly less desirable, with values of these cars falling on average some 10% behind my 1997 facelift example.
Mk3 cars with their faired headlights and host of other desirable improvements are a different proposition altogether, the value of these cars will be at least 30% higher than my 97 example and are often offered as much as 50% higher. Part of this is simply that the cars are younger in years but dealers do seem to actively hunt down these rare M3 variants and due to the very limited production numbers enjoy using the forces of "Supply & Demand" to pretty much name their price. Such shrewd dealers can afford to wait for that well heeled prospective Chimaera buyer who is prepared to pay a premium for the best variant/condition on the market.
Obviously I would caveat all my asking price figures by saying there are many other influences on the values I've shown, they really are just a guide and nothing more. I freely admit the analysis is based on just looking at adverts not viewing the cars in the flesh.. so elements like overall condition, mileage, and location of the car for sale will all have a significant impact, and there's a lot of unknowns in these areas with the way I've compiled my data.
As always when it comes to buying & selling it really boils down to what the seller is prepared to let his car go for, how desperate he is for the cash, and what any individual buyer is prepared to pay on the day.
But there remains three key questions I believe any seller should be asking himself before marketing his car:
1. Do I fully understand the market
2. Am I being realistic with my pricing based on both the market and my personal expectations
3. Can I be patient enough not to let the car go for less than I'm happy with
Anyone one can help a dealer pay his mortgage by taking a quick cash deal below the market rate, the dealer will be all too happy to oblige as he's really only interested in a profit, and beware the silver tonged dealer masquerading as a charming enthusiast looking for his first TVR, there's plenty of of em out there
These guys will almost certainly sell your car a few weeks later for what you really should have got for it yourself, and probably to the same genuine private buyer who would have called you if only you'd held onto the car for another week
The forum awaits your comments and opinions
I'll start by saying in my opinion these cars are still grossly undervalued and one of the biggest elements holding Chimaera values back are the private sellers out there who still seem happy to undervalue their cars when selling. On the flip side dealers in TVRs are working hard to fill their pockets and reverse this trend, which does seem to finally be having a positive effect on the market as a whole and personally I only see this as a good thing.
To flesh all this out with some facts and figures I'd like to share the market data I've been collecting for the last five years, firstly the numbers of Chimaeras on the market seems to be pretty consistent at between 50 cars in the winter months to 80 cars in the summer, advertised values do change by season but less than you might think, the final true sale prices on the other hand may well reveal a different picture but as this is unknown I can only really use asking price for my data.
Using a 1997 facelift car as our example I have averaged the dealer vs private sale asking prices over a mix of seasons and can reveal the trend for all three engine variants over the last 5 years looks like this:
More interestingly the same trend analysis can be used to loosely predict how the car will perform moving forward:
The market seems to view pre-facelift cars (Early 1993 - September 1996) as slightly less desirable, with values of these cars falling on average some 10% behind my 1997 facelift example.
Mk3 cars with their faired headlights and host of other desirable improvements are a different proposition altogether, the value of these cars will be at least 30% higher than my 97 example and are often offered as much as 50% higher. Part of this is simply that the cars are younger in years but dealers do seem to actively hunt down these rare M3 variants and due to the very limited production numbers enjoy using the forces of "Supply & Demand" to pretty much name their price. Such shrewd dealers can afford to wait for that well heeled prospective Chimaera buyer who is prepared to pay a premium for the best variant/condition on the market.
Obviously I would caveat all my asking price figures by saying there are many other influences on the values I've shown, they really are just a guide and nothing more. I freely admit the analysis is based on just looking at adverts not viewing the cars in the flesh.. so elements like overall condition, mileage, and location of the car for sale will all have a significant impact, and there's a lot of unknowns in these areas with the way I've compiled my data.
As always when it comes to buying & selling it really boils down to what the seller is prepared to let his car go for, how desperate he is for the cash, and what any individual buyer is prepared to pay on the day.
But there remains three key questions I believe any seller should be asking himself before marketing his car:
1. Do I fully understand the market
2. Am I being realistic with my pricing based on both the market and my personal expectations
3. Can I be patient enough not to let the car go for less than I'm happy with
Anyone one can help a dealer pay his mortgage by taking a quick cash deal below the market rate, the dealer will be all too happy to oblige as he's really only interested in a profit, and beware the silver tonged dealer masquerading as a charming enthusiast looking for his first TVR, there's plenty of of em out there
These guys will almost certainly sell your car a few weeks later for what you really should have got for it yourself, and probably to the same genuine private buyer who would have called you if only you'd held onto the car for another week
The forum awaits your comments and opinions
Edited by ChimpOnGas on Wednesday 11th May 15:03
^^^^Someone has too much time on their hands!!! 
However it make for interesting reading, however I assume you have looked only at current growth factors and projected them forward? Future trends will be hard to measure. Jon who looks after all the maintenance on my car commented to me 2 weeks ago, that he believes with the launch of the new TVR interest in the brand may be rekindled and values of existing models should go up faster than they have thus far. Who knows. His opinion was basically if you have a desirable one, well maintained etc, these could almost reach the name your price point. I'm not so sure on this, but I hope he's not too wrong there. I didn't buy as an investment, just to enjoy for as long as possible, but to also be depreciation proof at the same time. Mileage isn't an issue much with these cars but when you hit that 100K mark it does make them slightly harder to sell, but as time goes on that upper bench mark will move. I'm glad mine is low (27350) at the moment because this means I can use regularly and won't be in danger of hitting that 100k ceiling anytime soon.
However it make for interesting reading, however I assume you have looked only at current growth factors and projected them forward? Future trends will be hard to measure. Jon who looks after all the maintenance on my car commented to me 2 weeks ago, that he believes with the launch of the new TVR interest in the brand may be rekindled and values of existing models should go up faster than they have thus far. Who knows. His opinion was basically if you have a desirable one, well maintained etc, these could almost reach the name your price point. I'm not so sure on this, but I hope he's not too wrong there. I didn't buy as an investment, just to enjoy for as long as possible, but to also be depreciation proof at the same time. Mileage isn't an issue much with these cars but when you hit that 100K mark it does make them slightly harder to sell, but as time goes on that upper bench mark will move. I'm glad mine is low (27350) at the moment because this means I can use regularly and won't be in danger of hitting that 100k ceiling anytime soon.
Edited by Danattheopticians on Wednesday 11th May 15:47
Well developed interesting post Dave,however I would say that your prices were towards the low side,I have been looking lately at prices and it would seem quite a lot of the dealers are aiming now at the mid to upper teens,the days off the sub 10k cars seems to have gone thankfully unless it's a real old dog on fleabay
Reason for looking was to revalue my own car for insurance purposes,I would certainly have to go towards the upper teen prices to replace mine in its current condition and even then as with most enthusiastic owners money spentt would not actually represent it's true value
I firmly believe these cars finding the right buyer and marketed well will command increasingly higher prices in the next couple of years
I paid 10.5k for my 2000 3 years ago and it was a good one but there is no way I could replicate that now
Rich
Reason for looking was to revalue my own car for insurance purposes,I would certainly have to go towards the upper teen prices to replace mine in its current condition and even then as with most enthusiastic owners money spentt would not actually represent it's true value
I firmly believe these cars finding the right buyer and marketed well will command increasingly higher prices in the next couple of years
I paid 10.5k for my 2000 3 years ago and it was a good one but there is no way I could replicate that now
Rich
Danattheopticians said:
I assume you have looked only at current growth factors and projected them forward
Yes, the forward projection is just an extrapolation of the proven trend over the last five years, as I've been very careful to point out the figures are just a guide and noting more.The influence the new TVR has on the value of former models is an interesting point I'd hoped someone would pick up on, in my view the launch will certainly raise the profile and awareness of the TVR brand overall which can only have a positive impact on the value of all our cars.
My last point would be if you run the same analysis on all the other TVR models what you tend to find is the younger the model the greater the percentage increase has been in the last five years. Obviously I'm excluding the true classics like the Grantura & Vixen ect but it does seem the Chimaera for example is performing better than the "S" models that came before it and the much later "T" models are performing better than the Chimaera.
Of course production numbers of each model will always be an additional influencer on values as we're back the old "Supply & Demand" thing again, actually if you look at how many more Chimaeras were made which is directly linked to the numbers for sale today, its a TVR that performs very well indeed.
The basic facts as they stand are really quite simple.... In the last five years all Chimaera models have risen in value by 10% every year and each step up in engine size is going to cost you 10% more to buy but the car will always return you the same when/if you you choose to sell up.
Lets hear what others have to say on this one
sheel said:
Well developed interesting post Dave,however I would say that your prices were towards the low side,I have been looking lately at prices and it would seem quite a lot of the dealers are aiming now at the mid to upper teens,the days off the sub 10k cars seems to have gone thankfully unless it's a real old dog on fleabay
Reason for looking was to revalue my own car for insurance purposes,I would certainly have to go towards the upper teen prices to replace mine in its current condition and even then as with most enthusiastic owners money spentt would not actually represent it's true value
I firmly believe these cars finding the right buyer and marketed well will command increasingly higher prices in the next couple of years
I paid 10.5k for my 2000 3 years ago and it was a good one but there is no way I could replicate that now
Rich
Good points Rich, I must admit I've toned the figures down fractionally as a lot of the dealer asking prices are a bit, err.. optimistic shall we say Reason for looking was to revalue my own car for insurance purposes,I would certainly have to go towards the upper teen prices to replace mine in its current condition and even then as with most enthusiastic owners money spentt would not actually represent it's true value
I firmly believe these cars finding the right buyer and marketed well will command increasingly higher prices in the next couple of years
I paid 10.5k for my 2000 3 years ago and it was a good one but there is no way I could replicate that now
Rich
Or are they
It's important to reiterate my point about the difference between asking price and what a car actually sells for, the two figures can be wildly different. I was always taught a car will find it's true value at auction, that was long before Ebay but I guess the same rules apply as it's an auction website after all, so my figures do include the sell prices on Ebay which may be the reason you find them a little low?
Personally I'd call my figures realistic based on the A,B,C condition criteria I tried to follow, but they are just an average across a range of selling platforms and therefore the best I can get to with the tools and data at my disposal.
One thing is for sure none of us that bought our TVR three or more years ago could even dream of replacing it for what they originally paid, and many of us (me included) simply couldn't afford the same car today. It's a bit like my house, I bought it two years ago concerned I was overpaying, today I look back at it as the best deal I've ever done because there's no way today I could afford the same house in the same area at it's current market value.
I still think the TVR brand is climbing the recognition ladder, credibility is definitely improving as people forget the reliability stigma that kept values artificially low for so long. I'm not saying our Chimaeras will surge like my mate's classic Porsches have in the the last five years, but there's still plenty of scope and a strong argument that says we're sitting right on the brink of a period of accelerated growth.
So my best advice to anyone looking at buying a Chimaera this summer is... act fast before values rise beyond your grasp!
If its supply and demand,wouldn't the simplest choice to have made back when we tossed up between a Chim or Griff have been buy the Griff if it was all about values due to them being much more scarce? Yet I bought I chim simply because I preferred it! Yet a like for like 500 car is up for about the same today. But the Griff 500 is more readily available that the 500 chim so that might answer that. The top ceiling on the Griff granted does hit higher tho. I don't think I know what my point was now but there is a point in there somewhere!
Danattheopticians said:
If its supply and demand,wouldn't the simplest choice to have made back when we tossed up between a Chim or Griff have been buy the Griff if it was all about values due to them being much more scarce? Yet I bought I chim simply because I preferred it! Yet a like for like 500 car is up for about the same today. But the Griff 500 is more readily available that the 500 chim so that might answer that. The top ceiling on the Griff granted does hit higher tho. I don't think I know what my point was now but there is a point in there somewhere!
Lol, perhaps your point is.... buy what you like and don't try to play the financial speculator role when you're buying a classic/hobby car?If that is indeed is what you're saying I wholeheartedly agree, like you I also bought a Chimaera because I preferred it to the Griff and very much like the TVR buying public in the 90's too as the Chim outsold the Griff by more than two to one.
Saying that the word on the street is the new TVR will be called the Griffith which makes perfect sense f you think about it. If the the rumour the new TVR will be called the Griffith is true I can see the 1990's Griffs shooting up in value along with the already high values of early 200 & 400 models as certain types strive to collect every version of iconic Griffith named cars.
I always predicted the 90's Griff would be a better long term investment than the Chimaera which is essentially of course the same car, this hasn't really happened as I predicted but that could all change very soon
Perhaps more than ever before, now is the time to buy that Griff?
Edited by ChimpOnGas on Wednesday 11th May 20:43
Lol, maybe but it doesn't make it the better car! No time is the right time to buy the wrong car!
The chim outsold the Griff for a reason, that reason will come round again! Maybe the new Griff will mean that tvr now make Griffs but don't make chims so if you want the more iconic car you have to have a 90s original!
The chim outsold the Griff for a reason, that reason will come round again! Maybe the new Griff will mean that tvr now make Griffs but don't make chims so if you want the more iconic car you have to have a 90s original!
5.0ltr said:
You do know the Chim was cheaper of the two?
I don't know the new car prices so couldn't say. Tvr sold a lot more chims mainly due to the more practical boot and more comfortable ride from what I've read. The Griff was the stiffer and shorter car and more of a sports car which may have been the reason it was dearer. I also read that the chim was so popular that tvr had to put Griffith production on hold.aidanbree said:
It's only worth what someone is willing to pay for it. I've just listed mine starting at 99p.
I've just seen your ad. They can go cheaper on ebay due to the fact of time and it's never dealers trying to snap then up for a profit. You are right about the worth what someone is willing to pay thing. I hope you reach a decent price tho, these cars don't deserve to be given away. Good luck. Interesting excercise but my simple approach is to see what the dealers are asking and work back from there.
Fernhurst have always been my benchmark (and now Str8Six seem to be pushing things further) for TVRs in A1 condition.
On the separate point of new prices, a Chimaera 500 was roughly the same price as a Griffith 500.
But the Chimaera was also offered in cheaper variants as a 4.0 and a 4.0HC which may have given rise to the notion that the Chimaera was cheaper than the Griffith. Like for like, they worked out the same.
I know this stuff because I bought new in 1995 and I must have stared at that price list for hours
My Chimaera 4.0HC was just over £30k btw.
Fernhurst have always been my benchmark (and now Str8Six seem to be pushing things further) for TVRs in A1 condition.
On the separate point of new prices, a Chimaera 500 was roughly the same price as a Griffith 500.
But the Chimaera was also offered in cheaper variants as a 4.0 and a 4.0HC which may have given rise to the notion that the Chimaera was cheaper than the Griffith. Like for like, they worked out the same.
I know this stuff because I bought new in 1995 and I must have stared at that price list for hours
My Chimaera 4.0HC was just over £30k btw.
Danattheopticians said:
I've just seen your ad. They can go cheaper on ebay due to the fact of time and it's never dealers trying to snap then up for a profit. You are right about the worth what someone is willing to pay thing. I hope you reach a decent price tho, these cars don't deserve to be given away. Good luck.
I hope too! The reason for taking that approach is that I couldn't determine the value. Depending on who's opinion was courted there was a massive sway. Buyers tended to think it was worth half what Owners thought it was aidanbree said:
I hope too! The reason for taking that approach is that I couldn't determine the value. Depending on who's opinion was courted there was a massive sway. Buyers tended to think it was worth half what Owners thought it was
Did you not see this?This data has been extensively researched and refined, use it with some common sense and an honest appraisal of your car's genuine condition and you should be able to determine it's true market value within £500.
If we say the car is a Scottish based silver condition B pre-facelift 4.0 litre with the outriggers replaced then I'd say £10k should be your target, saying that there's something similar on EBay in the south of England right now that's being offered for for just over £8k.
Without seeing the car in the flesh it's impossible to say for sure, but perhaps the true value of your car sits somewhere between £8k & £10k, say £9,200.00
Good luck with your sale, it'll be interesting to see what your Chimaera makes and how the figure corresponds with my table and my above estimate, I'm sure you won't be giving it away
I find myself popping back to this topic a lot. Another angle to look at it is, as owners of the car already, what is the car worth to you? I bought a 25000 mile 2000 W reg car in Dec 15, which was a cat D, and I knew what I was doing when buying Cat D etc, and know I can never get the HPI clear value for it again now, however, it means I got a car this clean and new for a much cheaper price. But it's worth to me, now, what a HPI clear car equivalent car is worth which is about £16k - £17k, as Kerridges just had one the same with 49000 miles up for £17995 - Screen price and dealer price. But the crux of it is, for me to part with mine, some dodgy dealer who was just after buying it from me and making me an on the spot offer, to persuade my fingers off of it and hand over the key would have to offer me at least £17k...at least!! It's not worth this in reality I know, but an offer in that region might just persuade me, even then I'd be sad to see it go! So I think to a point my car is worth more than a cash offer anyone would make! If I ever need that cash this may change though.
Danattheopticians said:
5.0ltr said:
You do know the Chim was cheaper of the two?
I don't know the new car prices so couldn't say. Tvr sold a lot more chims mainly due to the more practical boot and more comfortable ride from what I've read. The Griff was the stiffer and shorter car and more of a sports car which may have been the reason it was dearer. I also read that the chim was so popular that tvr had to put Griffith production on hold.I always find it amusing that when folk are asking should I buy a Chimaera or Griffith the Chimaera gus always pipe up with the "They're both the same under the skin" but when it suits them they're different cars
The Griffith isn't 'that' different dimensionally to the Chimaera apart from the boot shape/length which gave it more of a touring capability.So while looks and practicality are factors I'm sure the 'softer' looking tradition British Sports car with a bigger boot swayed many but from my conversations and observations over the years I'm sure that price and engine size played the major part.
With regards to price the Chimaera was cheaper to the tune of some £4k on average (£7k in todays money on average) which is not an inconsiderable sum and interestingly when Chimaeras achieved purchase price parity with the Griffith, with the introduction of the Chimaera 500, they sold in more or less exactly the same numbers so it has to be said it was probably price that was the major driving force behind the purchase.
Another factor and I've heard this from many owners who purchased new Chimaeras, was a good number of them thought that 4.0/4.5 was more than enough and 5.0 was 'overkill' Again remember 4.0+ was a very big engine in the UK in the '90s and very much the preserve of very expensive cars.
It's also correct that Griffith production was halted to help catch up with the backlog of Chimaera orders but Peter Wheeler had also decided that the 'smaller' 4.0 capacity was now covered by the Chimaera so the intention was to make the Griffith the 'halo' car of the range by taking it further upmarket with the AJP engine, which they developed as it looked like the RV8 supply would be drying up and PW didn't want to be left without a V8 engine.
During development PW decided that the AJP Griffith with its short wheelbase was a bit too tail happy so they then developed the Cerbera with its longer wheelbase for the AJP and re-introduced the Griffith with the 5.0 engine.
, I know all cars are different, but my Non facelift Chimaera 500 was valued at £17000.00 by an independent around three months ago.I am in the market to buy and have been following prices very closely since January. Before I clicked on the thread I assumed that your prices would be way over but actually they look pretty close.
From what I've seen anything priced under 10k goes pretty quickly, especially in England, Scotland and Ireland takes longer or the price needs to be lower. Anything over 14k seems to stay around for ages unless it's immaculate.
A reasonable condition 500 sold recently for 10.6k I viewed it and it was in ok condition probably needed outriggers and a new windscreen but other than that you could sort the rest as you went along. I think it shows that buyers are prepared to wait for the right car at the right price I know that's what I'm doing.
From what I've seen anything priced under 10k goes pretty quickly, especially in England, Scotland and Ireland takes longer or the price needs to be lower. Anything over 14k seems to stay around for ages unless it's immaculate.
A reasonable condition 500 sold recently for 10.6k I viewed it and it was in ok condition probably needed outriggers and a new windscreen but other than that you could sort the rest as you went along. I think it shows that buyers are prepared to wait for the right car at the right price I know that's what I'm doing.
Gassing Station | Chimaera | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff