My first kicky outy backend

[tobeee]

Driving from 40 in to 60 zone, behind an lorry, clear road ahead, 5th to 4th, power on for the overtake, back-end starts sliding (rapidly!) to the left. Power off and left turn of the wheel, back-end goes right and I slide gracefully (but rapidly!) back onto the left side of the road, though facing the wrong way. No kerbing -just the strong smell of Bridgstones in the air.

I'm not a hooligan, and rarely accelerate violently, but the damp road just lost it for me. I was lucky.

Be careful out there!

>>> Edited by tobeee on Friday 11th March 07:12

[tahiti450]

First rule of oversteer (RWD or FWD) is DONT lift off, especially not suddenly, sure feather the throttle if it was mashed into the carpet. Lifting off is one way of inducing oversteer ( can often be used to great advantage usually in low speed tight corners / roundabouts etc when there is a tendency to understeer - even in TVRs - and in FWD cars which often repsond well to a sharp lift when you need to tighten up your line).
Reason being that as you stop accellerating the centre of mass suddenly shifts forward placing more weight on the front tyres - increasing their grip and the opposite at the back, which is exactly the reverse of what you want, since its the rear tyres that have already broken away. The big problem is that until you get used to anticipating and catching rear end slides the instinct is to lift off suddenly and apply loads of opposite lock, so when all of the above happens the car just swaps ends in the opposite direction to the initial slide in an unrecoverable spin.
In reality (in most cases) power-on oversteer is successfully controlled by EITHER a modest reduction in throttle (until the rears start to grip again) OR a modest application of opposite lock (if your're in hooligan mode or just showing off and dont want to lift at all). (In practice its usually a bit of both but the emphasis is on subtlety in the inputs).
Once mastered there shouldnt be any occasions (other than some unforseeable loss of grip due to say oil or other contaminants (sand / gravel also spring to mind)where the rear stepping out is anything other than a bit of fun.
Sounds like you were incredibly lucky to get away with that unscathed!! Phew.

[tobeee]

Hi Alan. Thanks for the advice. I'll have to read that a few times, as there's quite a lot to take in! Need to read it whilst re-living the events clearly I think.

I do recall reading about what to do in such a situation, but as I was essentially going sideways, I didn't really think that lifting off would cause any further problems. Also, I was already on the other side of the road and heading towards the kerb/ditch/hedge, so just wanted to get that out of the equation!

I've been doing driver training with RoADA, so I think I'll see if I can get a skidpan session.

[GreenV8S]

Take this as a hint to be extra careful in marginal conditions and think about brushing up on your car control skills. Tahiti's advice is good, I would just add that if you have a big slide and not confident that you are going to catch it, go for the brakes and lock all four wheels up. Trying to catch a slide and failing (or running out of road) can end up being *very* messy. Locking the wheels will normally see you stopping in a straight line and if done early enough you have a good chance of staying on the carriageway.

[tobeee]

Straight line would have been nice, but the back-end was out before I had a chance to react.

Hope I don't have a nervous drive home.

[M@H]

tobeee said:

Straight line would have been nice, but the back-end was out before I had a chance to react. Hope I don't have a nervous drive home.

I think Pete meant that you'd go in the direction that the car was travelling, not specifically the way it was pointing, (ie skid to a stop sideways) rather than risking the pendulum action or a continued spin.

Matt.

>> Edited by M@H on Friday 11th March 14:35

[tahiti450]

tobeee said:

I'll see if I can get a skidpan session.

That really is a good idea, since you cant learn car control from a book, on the other hand all you really need is a wide open area of tarmac with nothing to hit and gradually turn up the wick untill you are provoking oversteer and just learn how to control it in a safe environment. That way the mistakes that you need to make aren't punished in anything more than tyre rubber! Some of the track days and esp aerodrome gatherings are ideal for this.
What Peter said about hitting the brakes is good advice and is the best last resort once youn realise that you're not going to recover the slide, it will at least maximise your decelleration and tend to arrest further rotation.
I consider myself fortuinate (and probably atypical) to have always driven relatively powerfuil RWD cars, learnt to drive from 17y in a Rover 3500 for instance, and learn some sharp lessons very early on about what they can do!
I dont mean to presume or patronise but I guess a lot of people have driven FWD cars almost exclusively, (as I do most of the time now) and they are a totally different propostion in terms of handling, being almost "care-free" unless you provoke them quite hard. cOnversion to extreme RWD machinery is bound to produce some surprises!
Have fun!

[parrot of doom]

I think the most important factor here was the power applied while overtaking - only use whats necessary in such damp conditions, although this incident has probably done you a big favour - you're alive to learn from it!

Saying that, I've yet to experience such things, but I have no intention of doing so either

Might take a skid-pan course though just to improve my driving.

[GreenV8S]

If you're driving through the winter I think you have a responsibility to learn how to recognise the early signs of a slide and how to retain/regain control when they occur. Because even if you drive carefully and think you have plenty of grip in hand, sooner or later circumstances will change and that margin of safety will disappear. Unless you recognise it and stay in control, it'll end in tears.

[tobeee]

Hi all

Thanks for all your comments and advice. Just to put your minds at rest, my rear tyres are about 6 months old and in excellent condition, though it was very early and cold, so they would have been a bit hard I guess. Oh, and I am constantly ribbed by my mates for driving like a granny, so definitely no hooliganism involved yesterday - just gentle acceleration in the next gear down. It was a useful wake-up call though.

I'm meeting my RoSPA instructors tomorrow, so will ask about skidpan training. Maybe there's scope for a few of us to attend and save a few quid, so I'll report back next week...

[2 Smokin Barrels]

tobeee said:

Hi all Thanks for all your comments and advice. Just to put your minds at rest, my rear tyres are about 6 months old and in excellent condition, though it was very early and cold, so they would have been a bit hard I guess. Oh, and I am constantly ribbed by my mates for driving like a granny, so definitely no hooliganism involved yesterday - just gentle acceleration in the next gear down. It was a useful wake-up call though. I'm meeting my RoSPA instructors tomorrow, so will ask about skidpan training. Maybe there's scope for a few of us to attend and save a few quid, so I'll report back next week...

Hi Tobee

Scary moment!

By the way. I've finally replaced Chim. Had a great balst down to St Alabans in her last night!

Steve

[sparkythecat]

[quote=satch#9]make sure your completely out and straight before accelerating. I was told of tiv drivers not quite "making it" before accelerating and driving into the back of vehicles

in the wet "accelerating into the space" isn't always recommended. in a stright line with smooth, even power delivery you should be fine - think about your tyres too - are they warmed up / worn in etc.

[/quote]



Always make sure your wheels are pointing straight ahead before hitting the loud pedal.

[tobeee]

Hi 2SB - Another Chim? Where are the photos?

[2 Smokin Barrels]

tobeee said:

Hi 2SB - Another Chim? Where are the photos?

Here!

(Although I've now got my plate on her)

Saw your baby as I staggered back from the White Hart Tap!

[IPAddis]

sparkythecat said:

Always make sure your wheels are pointing straight ahead before hitting the loud pedal.

Good advice but I don't think it gives you free reign to just boot it (not that you were suggesting that). From a standing start with the wheels pointing straight, you can get the back to twitch to one side requiring some opposite lock and/or feathering to compensate. I presume this is just a consequence of the way the diff locks up or different traction between the rear wheels.

Ian A.

[rooster]

tobeee
know how you feel, did the same thing but did not loose it as far as you! makes the knees go weak and the heart pound a bit doesn't it.
Rooster

[greg_D]

you've obviously not been trying hard enough before

It's all part of the fun, embrace it, that is why you brought a powerful RWD car.

Greg

[tahiti450]

greg_D said:

you've obviously not been trying hard enough before It's all part of the fun, embrace it, that is why you brought a powerful RWD car. Greg

precisely!

disclaimer:......to be used in a sensible and responsible manner of course .....

>> Edited by tahiti450 on Tuesday 15th March 09:55

[2 Smokin Barrels]

greg_D said:

you've obviously not been trying hard enough before It's all part of the fun, embrace it, that is why you brought a powerful RWD car. Greg

But..when you've had the road, sky, tree, road, tree, sky, sky, tree sensation it tends to slow you down for the next few miles