Will not start
Discussion
96 400 Chimaera - turn key - fuel pump primes, but absolutely nothing from starter motor, no click - nothing. Car is at garage at moment and they have confirmed that 125amp fuse next to starter is fine and that there is power to the starter. Car will bump start no problem. It's a new battery so that shouldn't be an issue. Is the starter motor fubar? If it is I will be annoyed as it's only about 2 years old and is an expensive refurb unit supplied by a well known TVR specialist.
Hitting things is seldom the chosen repair method of a professional 
TBH the OP is describing an extremely common issue with Chimaera's, and while assumptions are the mother of all f**k ups I have to point out it's frightening common for the fault to be immobiliser related.
Obviously you need to test the entire starting system properly, but assuming it is indeed the immobiliser, the cheapest 100% effective solution is to bypass the immobiliser on the starter circuit only.
PM me if you need help with the bypass.
Dave.
TBH the OP is describing an extremely common issue with Chimaera's, and while assumptions are the mother of all f**k ups I have to point out it's frightening common for the fault to be immobiliser related.
Obviously you need to test the entire starting system properly, but assuming it is indeed the immobiliser, the cheapest 100% effective solution is to bypass the immobiliser on the starter circuit only.
PM me if you need help with the bypass.
Dave.
Thanks all - I have PM'd Dave and will then speak to garage again after Easter - it's not as if I would have been driving the car much in this awful "spring" weather during the next few days anyway! This is the first time in 8 years of ownership that my car has misbehaved which one has to say is fantastic really for a 20+ years old car with 90+K miles on the clock.
DastardlyDick said:
Thanks all - I have PM'd Dave and will then speak to garage again after Easter - it's not as if I would have been driving the car much in this awful "spring" weather during the next few days anyway! This is the first time in 8 years of ownership that my car has misbehaved which one has to say is fantastic really for a 20+ years old car with 90+K miles on the clock.
I've responded Richard, but please conduct your tests of the complete starting system and all it's related components before assuming its the immobiliser that's at fault.And to answer the question in your email, because the immobiliser circuit we suspect may be the issue simply interrupts the starter solenoid circuit, you will indeed still be able to bump start the car if this is the fault.
The M36T2 immobiliser is a two circuit Thatcham approved immobiliser, relay 1 of the immobiliser can handle a maximum of 10 Amps, relay 2 can handle 25 Amps.
The problem is TVR wired these circuits the wrong way around!
TVR wired the low amp ECU circuit through the higher rated 25 amp relay, while the lower rated 10 amp relay is left to handle the far higher load of the starter solenoid, essentially TVR hard wired a reliability time bomb into all Chimaeras and Griffiths. There's really no telling how long the immobiliser will continue to function like this, some cars had issues in the first few years of ownership while others soldier on for years and years, the only thing you can guarantee is one day TVR's mistake will eventually leave you unable to start the car.
Problems can be further compounded when the starter solenoid begins to wear, in so doing it demands more & more power to function, the problems start when the current flow to the starter gets to the 10 Amp limit of the little Meta relay potted deep inside the immobiliser unit itself. This gets further exasperated when the car is hot because all the associated wiring, the starter solenoid, and the starter itself becomes heat soaked.
As we all know from school physics resistance in an electrical circuit increases with heat, this is why the immobiliser starting fault on TVRs is commonly referred to as the hot start problem.
By all means fit the hot start kit from ModWise, but please be aware without an immobiliser bypass or the installation of a new correctly wired security system the dreaded hot start problem may very well come back to haunt you in the future, and at a very inconvenient moment.
The hot start kit peddled by ModWise as a cure is nothing of the sort, it's just a relay and all it does is take a bit of load off the starter solenoid circuit, what it can never do is repair the exiting wear and damage that has been inflicted on that little 10 amp Meta over years and years and many thousands of cycles
In my experience and that of hundreds of other Chim & Griff owners who have requested my bypass instructions, unlike the hot start kit an immobiliser bypass is an 100% effective solution that addresses the true source of the problem. The car remains secure because you're only bypassing the immobiliser on the starter solenoid circuit, post bypass it'll still be controlling the live feed to the ECU.
Following the bypass you'll be able to crank the car on the starter without disengaging the immobiliser, but the engine still won't start, it's not until you press your immobiliser fob that the ECU will become live. You'll hear this as the ECU runs the fuel pump, so the buzzing pump sound serves as your audible indication the car is ready to be started.
Here are three things owners can do that will massively enhance the reliability of their Chimaera:
1. Check your starter motor is in good health first, if not recondition or replace
2. Bypass the immobiliser on the troublesome starter circuit only or have a TVR alarm specialist correctly install a new system
3. Upgrade your starter cable and add a high amp earth return in the same heavier gauge cable
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
You could also fit a relay to the starter circuit because TVR never fitted one, this was a bit odd as it's always automotive wiring best practice to fit a starter circuit relay, it's purpose is actually to take load off the contacts on the ignition switch to help it last longer. I suspect TVR thought the relay inside the Meta immobiliser would serve this function, which it may well have done had TVR wired the starter circuit through the correct 25 amp relay
The above three steps are straightforward to complete and the parts aren't hugely expensive, absolutely no question what you'll end up with is an infinitely more dependable and reliably starting Chimaera or Griffith. I firmly believe much of the reliability stigma these cars still carry amongst the general public could have been eliminated had TVR just wired the immobiliser correctly, the good news is the TVR reliability stigma keeps prices down on our cars making them hugely undervalued in a classic car market that's gone a bit nuts of late.
Bypassing the immobiliser on the starter circuit is essentially free, or better still you could have a TVR alarm specialist like HF Solutions correctly install a completely new system that will come with additional benefits such as a remote boot release. This will will probably cost in the order of £500 - £600 which sounds expensive but given it solves the biggest source of unreliability in a stroke, and given Chimaeras are massively undervalued.... the investment in a new security system is very much put in perspective.
The problem is TVR wired these circuits the wrong way around!
TVR wired the low amp ECU circuit through the higher rated 25 amp relay, while the lower rated 10 amp relay is left to handle the far higher load of the starter solenoid, essentially TVR hard wired a reliability time bomb into all Chimaeras and Griffiths. There's really no telling how long the immobiliser will continue to function like this, some cars had issues in the first few years of ownership while others soldier on for years and years, the only thing you can guarantee is one day TVR's mistake will eventually leave you unable to start the car.
Problems can be further compounded when the starter solenoid begins to wear, in so doing it demands more & more power to function, the problems start when the current flow to the starter gets to the 10 Amp limit of the little Meta relay potted deep inside the immobiliser unit itself. This gets further exasperated when the car is hot because all the associated wiring, the starter solenoid, and the starter itself becomes heat soaked.
As we all know from school physics resistance in an electrical circuit increases with heat, this is why the immobiliser starting fault on TVRs is commonly referred to as the hot start problem.
By all means fit the hot start kit from ModWise, but please be aware without an immobiliser bypass or the installation of a new correctly wired security system the dreaded hot start problem may very well come back to haunt you in the future, and at a very inconvenient moment.
The hot start kit peddled by ModWise as a cure is nothing of the sort, it's just a relay and all it does is take a bit of load off the starter solenoid circuit, what it can never do is repair the exiting wear and damage that has been inflicted on that little 10 amp Meta over years and years and many thousands of cycles
In my experience and that of hundreds of other Chim & Griff owners who have requested my bypass instructions, unlike the hot start kit an immobiliser bypass is an 100% effective solution that addresses the true source of the problem. The car remains secure because you're only bypassing the immobiliser on the starter solenoid circuit, post bypass it'll still be controlling the live feed to the ECU.
Following the bypass you'll be able to crank the car on the starter without disengaging the immobiliser, but the engine still won't start, it's not until you press your immobiliser fob that the ECU will become live. You'll hear this as the ECU runs the fuel pump, so the buzzing pump sound serves as your audible indication the car is ready to be started.
Here are three things owners can do that will massively enhance the reliability of their Chimaera:
1. Check your starter motor is in good health first, if not recondition or replace
2. Bypass the immobiliser on the troublesome starter circuit only or have a TVR alarm specialist correctly install a new system
3. Upgrade your starter cable and add a high amp earth return in the same heavier gauge cable
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
You could also fit a relay to the starter circuit because TVR never fitted one, this was a bit odd as it's always automotive wiring best practice to fit a starter circuit relay, it's purpose is actually to take load off the contacts on the ignition switch to help it last longer. I suspect TVR thought the relay inside the Meta immobiliser would serve this function, which it may well have done had TVR wired the starter circuit through the correct 25 amp relay
The above three steps are straightforward to complete and the parts aren't hugely expensive, absolutely no question what you'll end up with is an infinitely more dependable and reliably starting Chimaera or Griffith. I firmly believe much of the reliability stigma these cars still carry amongst the general public could have been eliminated had TVR just wired the immobiliser correctly, the good news is the TVR reliability stigma keeps prices down on our cars making them hugely undervalued in a classic car market that's gone a bit nuts of late.
Bypassing the immobiliser on the starter circuit is essentially free, or better still you could have a TVR alarm specialist like HF Solutions correctly install a completely new system that will come with additional benefits such as a remote boot release. This will will probably cost in the order of £500 - £600 which sounds expensive but given it solves the biggest source of unreliability in a stroke, and given Chimaeras are massively undervalued.... the investment in a new security system is very much put in perspective.
I think I now understand all this - many thanks Dave. I did fit the Modwise thing a couple of years ago but I suspect what has now happened is precisely what your posts explain is almost inevitable at some point. I shall go the garage where car is still in situ and discuss all this with them armed with all this fantastic knowledge from the forum agree an action plan to get this all sorted per your suggestions.Longer term the new alarm installation seems like a good thing to do.
DastardlyDick said:
I think I now understand all this - many thanks Dave. I did fit the Modwise thing a couple of years ago but I suspect what has now happened is precisely what your posts explain is almost inevitable at some point. I shall go the garage where car is still in situ and discuss all this with them armed with all this fantastic knowledge from the forum agree an action plan to get this all sorted per your suggestions.Longer term the new alarm installation seems like a good thing to do.
Excellent stuff Richard, I'm glad I was able to help.The way I see it we are all enthusiasts for these cars, so we should all support each other
Good luck with it and don't forget to complete this post with your findings and those of your mechanic as soon as the issue has been fixed, this will help others searching the PH TVR forum archive for answers to the same issues in the future
Kind regards, Dave.
I back up the last paragraph of Dave’s long post - mine went wrong big time in 2012, I had the hot start issue from day 1 of ownership (actually on day 1). And then I came out one morning to find the left side indicator permanently on (not flashing) and the battery nearly dead.
I took mine to Carl Baker (other alarm gurus are availablue) and he spent an entire day installing the latest Meta system, completely rewriting the whole alarm immobiliser and installing the boot plipper. Never had an issue since.
The only reason I didn’t do the ChimpOnGas bypass was that Dave didn’t have that excellent essay on speed-dial in 2012 (well, and I had more problems than just immobiliser).
It’s a good one Dave. Spot on.
I took mine to Carl Baker (other alarm gurus are availablue) and he spent an entire day installing the latest Meta system, completely rewriting the whole alarm immobiliser and installing the boot plipper. Never had an issue since.
The only reason I didn’t do the ChimpOnGas bypass was that Dave didn’t have that excellent essay on speed-dial in 2012 (well, and I had more problems than just immobiliser).
It’s a good one Dave. Spot on.
DastardlyDick said:
96 400 Chimaera - turn key - fuel pump primes, but absolutely nothing from starter motor, no click - nothing. Car is at garage at moment and they have confirmed that 125amp fuse next to starter is fine and that there is power to the starter. Car will bump start no problem. It's a new battery so that shouldn't be an issue. Is the starter motor fubar? If it is I will be annoyed as it's only about 2 years old and is an expensive refurb unit supplied by a well known TVR specialist.
If there is 12v on the small wire to the starter when trying to start the engine then the starter motor is broken. If the garage means there are 12v on the big red wire then that is normal. If you do have 12v on the small wire when trying to crank the engine then it is not an immobiliser issue. The garage can touch a wire to the small terminal directly from the big red wire (permanently live) and the starter should turn. If it does not then it has failed.
I would not start investigating immobiliser issues and confusing the mechanic until the basics have been done first.
It staggers me that a garage has not already proven a direct connection from main cable to the solenoid.
The report then should have been one of two answers....
We've tested the starter and its dead.
We've tested the starter and it seems fine so your problem has to be somewhere else in your wiring. This may be followed by 'we have no experience of TVRs so any further investigation is out of our league'.
Steve
The report then should have been one of two answers....
We've tested the starter and its dead.
We've tested the starter and it seems fine so your problem has to be somewhere else in your wiring. This may be followed by 'we have no experience of TVRs so any further investigation is out of our league'.
Steve
Guys - I am going to visit garage on Tuesday to fully discuss following all the great info provided by you all. It may well be that they have already tested the circuitry as you say but that ( due to my own lack of understanding) I didn't really fully understand what they were telling me. So I'm prepared to give them the benefit of the doubt until I speak to them again as they do seem to be trying to be genuinely helpful. However, if I feel any doubt about their ability or desire to fix this for me then I will get the car to a garage with specific TVR knowledge. I'll post again after visiting the garage.
DastardlyDick said:
96 400 Chimaera - turn key - fuel pump primes, but absolutely nothing from starter motor, no click - nothing. Car is at garage at moment and they have confirmed that 125amp fuse next to starter is fine and that there is power to the starter. Car will bump start no problem. It's a new battery so that shouldn't be an issue. Is the starter motor fubar? If it is I will be annoyed as it's only about 2 years old and is an expensive refurb unit supplied by a well known TVR specialist.
If there is power to the starter, but nothing happens then that is where to start the investigation in my opinion. Easy if the car is in the air, less so if it isnt! Getting into the wiring stuff discussed cant do any harm but the car starts when bumped started, so not to much wrong with the electrics in that scenario.
Re a new starter motor, on my first car, I bought one from ebay that was suggested on here and it was faster and cheaper than the recommended/specialist one. It certainly lasted longer than a couple of years and I believe is still going strong.
Another thumbs up for Dave’s ( Chimp on gas) immobiliser by pass👍. Towards the end of last year my 500 was starting to show signs of the dreaded hot start issue, it was fine most of the time but started to give me trouble when trying to restart when the fans were running and drawing all those extra amps, it I disconnected the wire to the fans shed turn over fine, reconnect the fans and ‘click’ nothing
So today as it looked like it was going to be the only dry day over Easter in Essex, I followed his emailed instructions and I’m pleased to say the problem seems to be solved, I still have a working immobiliser but on the starter circuit, simples 🙂
Dave
So today as it looked like it was going to be the only dry day over Easter in Essex, I followed his emailed instructions and I’m pleased to say the problem seems to be solved, I still have a working immobiliser but on the starter circuit, simples 🙂
Dave
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