Chimaera 450 on PH - Any info or thoughts?
Discussion
https://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/...
Seems like a real hard one to place a value on. Any ideas? Doesn't seem to be anything out there comparable as later car as this or anywhere near those kind of miles. Quite rare to see a TVR at 98k as many/most have done quite a bit less.
I went to look at a couple at the weekend. One wasn't for me but the other looked very decent.
Anyone know anything about this car or have any thoughts on it please?
Seems like a real hard one to place a value on. Any ideas? Doesn't seem to be anything out there comparable as later car as this or anywhere near those kind of miles. Quite rare to see a TVR at 98k as many/most have done quite a bit less.
I went to look at a couple at the weekend. One wasn't for me but the other looked very decent.
Anyone know anything about this car or have any thoughts on it please?
That’s a beauty and looks to have had proper professional work done at serious cost.
It all depends on what the asking price is.
It’s possibly one of the last few hundred or so ever made so imo a valuable car. That mileage just shows it’s been a good car I’d say.
Mileage is the last thing to worry about and that’s probably a lot more reliable than one on 29,000 miles that’s sat in a garage most of its life.
I think it’s wrong personally to consider Tvr the way you would a normal car and mileage on Tvr is like proof it’s been good and probably highly maintained throughout its life.
Mine as an example came at 38,000 miles and was a bit of a dog really.
It’s now on 75,000 miles because I just couldn’t stop driving it almost every day since I owned it but not without a huge amount of re proofing as I sort of call it.
My car after all the work is now a much better car so the mileage means very little. QBee has a car that’s now close to 100,000 miles I believe and that’s also had much work and is very reliable overall, because he has a great Tvr mechanic and QBee sorts the problems out.
The car above looks to have had lots of love and care and that to me is more important than anything else.
Dependant in price but that car just looks right to me
What sort of money are they asking for?
It all depends on what the asking price is.
It’s possibly one of the last few hundred or so ever made so imo a valuable car. That mileage just shows it’s been a good car I’d say.
Mileage is the last thing to worry about and that’s probably a lot more reliable than one on 29,000 miles that’s sat in a garage most of its life.
I think it’s wrong personally to consider Tvr the way you would a normal car and mileage on Tvr is like proof it’s been good and probably highly maintained throughout its life.
Mine as an example came at 38,000 miles and was a bit of a dog really.
It’s now on 75,000 miles because I just couldn’t stop driving it almost every day since I owned it but not without a huge amount of re proofing as I sort of call it.
My car after all the work is now a much better car so the mileage means very little. QBee has a car that’s now close to 100,000 miles I believe and that’s also had much work and is very reliable overall, because he has a great Tvr mechanic and QBee sorts the problems out.
The car above looks to have had lots of love and care and that to me is more important than anything else.
Dependant in price but that car just looks right to me
What sort of money are they asking for?
rockits said:
The seller seems like a decent enough guy. Not perfect or full service history and not perfect paint by all account. I haven't viewed it yet.
The price is a little fuzzy. Apparently it was sold a while back for £18.5k but the buyer pulled out as there was a windscreen leak and by the time it went back to DC to be resolved the buyer pulled out as had found another as it took a month to resolve.
Seller is looking for around £18.5-£19k it seems.
The price is a little fuzzy. Apparently it was sold a while back for £18.5k but the buyer pulled out as there was a windscreen leak and by the time it went back to DC to be resolved the buyer pulled out as had found another as it took a month to resolve.
Seller is looking for around £18.5-£19k it seems.
A month sounds about right.
If you were to make an informed list of what matters or at least what costs the most interiors are not cheap and can cost thousands.
If you were to find the perfect car it would have cost many many thousands to get to that point. If the chassis and running gear is in good order and the engine bay does look very tidy which is always a good sign then that’s a very fair price for such a late car.
I’d be inclined to test a few cars, that way you get a feel for them. I’m totally convinced if I did sell my car a test drive will prove my point, new dif, clutch that’s very light, Ecu with zero shunting, steering and many other joints replaced so feeling taught and rebuilt engine so also feels fast.
You can only know if you’ve been in a few.
If the paint can be repaired without a complete respray not the end of the world, I’d be looking closely at the engine details and what work has been carried out there. Pics look nice but it’s only up close you get a feel for if it’s just bling or real mainanance.
I like silver Chims so maybe rose tinted specs but that car looks real nice to me.
If you were to make an informed list of what matters or at least what costs the most interiors are not cheap and can cost thousands.
If you were to find the perfect car it would have cost many many thousands to get to that point. If the chassis and running gear is in good order and the engine bay does look very tidy which is always a good sign then that’s a very fair price for such a late car.
I’d be inclined to test a few cars, that way you get a feel for them. I’m totally convinced if I did sell my car a test drive will prove my point, new dif, clutch that’s very light, Ecu with zero shunting, steering and many other joints replaced so feeling taught and rebuilt engine so also feels fast.
You can only know if you’ve been in a few.
If the paint can be repaired without a complete respray not the end of the world, I’d be looking closely at the engine details and what work has been carried out there. Pics look nice but it’s only up close you get a feel for if it’s just bling or real mainanance.
I like silver Chims so maybe rose tinted specs but that car looks real nice to me.
If the buyer is after 18 - 19k, then I would say snap it up. It certainly looks a beauty and has had money spent in the right areas.
As a guide, in May I part-exchanged my Mk3 for a Tuscan at a well known dealer in Warwickshire who then advertised it for £24,995 and it sold in two weeks. It also was a beauty with just over 28,000 miles in Brilliant Silver with Prussian Blue interior.
If I was in the market for another Chim, I'd have contacted the seller of the example we discussing pretty damn sharpish.
As a guide, in May I part-exchanged my Mk3 for a Tuscan at a well known dealer in Warwickshire who then advertised it for £24,995 and it sold in two weeks. It also was a beauty with just over 28,000 miles in Brilliant Silver with Prussian Blue interior.
If I was in the market for another Chim, I'd have contacted the seller of the example we discussing pretty damn sharpish.
Thanks all. Very useful info and much appreciated.
There is an issue with maybe HT leads or socks that the seller has mentioned so is a bit jumpy when hot. He has also been honest that it isn't a concourse show winning car with the body or under-bonnet.
I may differ to many but the biggest jobs and most expensive jobs seem to be outriggers & chassis. Then engine/gearbox/diff. The interior is less of a plus for me. It is very nice don't get me wrong but is cosmetic and doesn't stop the car working or driving. The mechanicals are far more important to be right IMHO.
I understand what is being said about mileage. I'm not afraid of mileage and have a very nice XC90 4.4 V8 that has done over 200k that drives really well and has served me really well. However the mechanicals on a 98k car will have twice the wear as a 46k car. There is no getting away from that.
When I bought my 4200 I spent a year looking and researching as it was my first foray in Maserati ownership and a world apart from other marques I had up until that point. I bought the very best I could find and bought an 11k mile garage queen from the original/first owner. It has never seen a winter, never been driven in the rain, always been garaged under a soft OEM indoor cover in a dehumidified space. It is pretty mint and still smells new. I paid maybe 5-7.5k more than a car 2-3 years old, with 20-60k more miles with worse history. I felt the extra cost was more than worth it and the car would always be worth that premium more and possibly more as it aged. That proved to be a good move.
The problem is rightly or wrongly not many value a high miles car the same or more than a lower miles car. The yardstick in the trade is 1% per 000 miles as a guide. I know that TVR's are very different. I just don't see it worth the same or more than these 2 for example:
https://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/...
https://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/...
Generally a dealer retail car will be maybe £2-£5k more than a private sale car depending on marque and dealer in my experience. Are we saying that this car at 98k miles and not perfect history and couple of little issues if sorted and retailed would be circa £25-£27k?
There is an issue with maybe HT leads or socks that the seller has mentioned so is a bit jumpy when hot. He has also been honest that it isn't a concourse show winning car with the body or under-bonnet.
I may differ to many but the biggest jobs and most expensive jobs seem to be outriggers & chassis. Then engine/gearbox/diff. The interior is less of a plus for me. It is very nice don't get me wrong but is cosmetic and doesn't stop the car working or driving. The mechanicals are far more important to be right IMHO.
I understand what is being said about mileage. I'm not afraid of mileage and have a very nice XC90 4.4 V8 that has done over 200k that drives really well and has served me really well. However the mechanicals on a 98k car will have twice the wear as a 46k car. There is no getting away from that.
When I bought my 4200 I spent a year looking and researching as it was my first foray in Maserati ownership and a world apart from other marques I had up until that point. I bought the very best I could find and bought an 11k mile garage queen from the original/first owner. It has never seen a winter, never been driven in the rain, always been garaged under a soft OEM indoor cover in a dehumidified space. It is pretty mint and still smells new. I paid maybe 5-7.5k more than a car 2-3 years old, with 20-60k more miles with worse history. I felt the extra cost was more than worth it and the car would always be worth that premium more and possibly more as it aged. That proved to be a good move.
The problem is rightly or wrongly not many value a high miles car the same or more than a lower miles car. The yardstick in the trade is 1% per 000 miles as a guide. I know that TVR's are very different. I just don't see it worth the same or more than these 2 for example:
https://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/...
https://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/...
Generally a dealer retail car will be maybe £2-£5k more than a private sale car depending on marque and dealer in my experience. Are we saying that this car at 98k miles and not perfect history and couple of little issues if sorted and retailed would be circa £25-£27k?
Rigger replacement is one of the cheapest ( big jobs) but if it needs riggers you have to be sure that's all it needs as a chassis full resto is expensive.
There is potential for any moving part to fail at 50,000 miles or might last 200,000 miles. There’s a Tuscan I think that's over 225,000 miles and a Chim that’s around 170,000 I seem to remember that’s serviced by a respected specialist and runs on and on.
This is where it gets difficult because being a Performance car you now have to decide who or if it’s been treated like a dog at sometime.
Someone who likes racing lights to lights will be wearing his car out much more than a retired nurse
This is where driving them comes into it.
Your Mazeratti sounds very nice, I’m sure it should drive accordingly.
The same goes for a Tvr
So you’d assume a lower mileage car is exactly as you suggest.
The niggles the owner honestly mentions can and do appear on many of them as they age.
If one or the other of the cars suggested on this thread has an overall merit score better than the other then that’s surely the better buy.
If at any time one or the other requires major works like a diff or gearbox or engine rebuild then the later car will gain value as the mileage will mean less.
Both cars look very nice so condition condition condition would be my feeling plus just how it drives.
The diffs loosen up and it won’t ever lfeel as taught as your Mazerratti on any of them and as far as I’m aware both examples are on the original ignition systems so a plug extender failing or whatever is possible on any car offered for sale unless it has an updated/ rated system.
The wheels on the later car are valued anything from £1000-£1500 so it’s all pros and cons.
The later car I’d suggest is more desirable to some buyers with flared in headlights etc as standard but if you like the earlier car with lower miles then that's the one to go for. If you aim to be a long time owner the cars mileage will soon catch up.
The first car will be a mark 3 so not many of those about. With the right amount of work yes a valuable car and could easily be worth 25k plus to the right buyer. The older car will have to be very good to be worth that but frankly both look pretty good from a few pictures.
The recent history file and what work has been carried out will make a difference. Both are likely to have had cam shaft replacents by now so see which one has been maintained the most.
Some say the 5.0 is more fragile for instance, it’s commonly excepted the 4.6 engine is the best platform moving forward for mods but the 5 will be slightly faster as standard.
The 4.6 can suffer piston liner issues so it’s sort of 6 of one and half a dozen of the other. The 4.6 will feel smoother in most cases.
Again the 5.0 is a premium and sort after.
The last cars have the best switch gear and bodies are normally strong and smooth but that’s all a matter of opinion.
I have a late car so bound to be biased but I wouldn’t swap it for an older one as I think it just looks better, not entirely sure why though.
I was once told by someone that worked at Tvr the last cars had a better overall quality of build but I’m not really sure if that’s true.
The technicians were building the more sophisticated T cars and these late Chims are supposed to have been built by these higher skilled men who also Built the Cerbera.
I d read up and ask all you can, get your research together then start driving them.
A really early car might drive better, it’s like asking how long is a piece of string.
All I do know is if you like that connected feeling and love a deep V8 they are all great.
There is potential for any moving part to fail at 50,000 miles or might last 200,000 miles. There’s a Tuscan I think that's over 225,000 miles and a Chim that’s around 170,000 I seem to remember that’s serviced by a respected specialist and runs on and on.
This is where it gets difficult because being a Performance car you now have to decide who or if it’s been treated like a dog at sometime.
Someone who likes racing lights to lights will be wearing his car out much more than a retired nurse
This is where driving them comes into it.
Your Mazeratti sounds very nice, I’m sure it should drive accordingly.
The same goes for a Tvr
So you’d assume a lower mileage car is exactly as you suggest.
The niggles the owner honestly mentions can and do appear on many of them as they age.
If one or the other of the cars suggested on this thread has an overall merit score better than the other then that’s surely the better buy.
If at any time one or the other requires major works like a diff or gearbox or engine rebuild then the later car will gain value as the mileage will mean less.
Both cars look very nice so condition condition condition would be my feeling plus just how it drives.
The diffs loosen up and it won’t ever lfeel as taught as your Mazerratti on any of them and as far as I’m aware both examples are on the original ignition systems so a plug extender failing or whatever is possible on any car offered for sale unless it has an updated/ rated system.
The wheels on the later car are valued anything from £1000-£1500 so it’s all pros and cons.
The later car I’d suggest is more desirable to some buyers with flared in headlights etc as standard but if you like the earlier car with lower miles then that's the one to go for. If you aim to be a long time owner the cars mileage will soon catch up.
The first car will be a mark 3 so not many of those about. With the right amount of work yes a valuable car and could easily be worth 25k plus to the right buyer. The older car will have to be very good to be worth that but frankly both look pretty good from a few pictures.
The recent history file and what work has been carried out will make a difference. Both are likely to have had cam shaft replacents by now so see which one has been maintained the most.
Some say the 5.0 is more fragile for instance, it’s commonly excepted the 4.6 engine is the best platform moving forward for mods but the 5 will be slightly faster as standard.
The 4.6 can suffer piston liner issues so it’s sort of 6 of one and half a dozen of the other. The 4.6 will feel smoother in most cases.
Again the 5.0 is a premium and sort after.
The last cars have the best switch gear and bodies are normally strong and smooth but that’s all a matter of opinion.
I have a late car so bound to be biased but I wouldn’t swap it for an older one as I think it just looks better, not entirely sure why though.
I was once told by someone that worked at Tvr the last cars had a better overall quality of build but I’m not really sure if that’s true.
The technicians were building the more sophisticated T cars and these late Chims are supposed to have been built by these higher skilled men who also Built the Cerbera.
I d read up and ask all you can, get your research together then start driving them.
A really early car might drive better, it’s like asking how long is a piece of string.
All I do know is if you like that connected feeling and love a deep V8 they are all great.
looks a nice car, if the cam has been changed then that’s a bonus too as they are generally worn out by 100 k, although mine looked fine at 78 k.
My crank bearings were badly worn at 78 k, probably due to the fact it was not used enough and started briefly to move around etc.
I’d rather see a well used well maintained car personally, that mileage would not bother me too much.
These engines will solider on forever with regular oil changes and with the correct quality oil.
The only thing I will say is that it’s a buyers market out there at the moment so don’t rush into a purchase.
My crank bearings were badly worn at 78 k, probably due to the fact it was not used enough and started briefly to move around etc.
I’d rather see a well used well maintained car personally, that mileage would not bother me too much.
These engines will solider on forever with regular oil changes and with the correct quality oil.
The only thing I will say is that it’s a buyers market out there at the moment so don’t rush into a purchase.
Great, thanks Classic Chim. Very kind of you to offer all this information. Really appreciated.
I have a Mk1 Chimaera 400 non-PAS at the moment and not sure if I'll keep or sell yet.
I agree with all your points but maybe we differ a little on the price of this Chimaera. I'm not tight but a canny purchaser most of the time and part of my work is buying IT/tech kit that we resell to our customers. I tend to work out the price I think is the right price for me or what it is worth to me, go forward with that and stick to it. Some you win and some you don't but there is never often a shortage of opportunities. I also haven't tons of cash to be too frivolous.
It is indeed a buyers market out there art the moment more than I have ever seen in my lifetime IMHO. Lots of big lumpy stuff is becoming very unpopular for most due to sentiment, electrification etc. and I don't see this trend changing. Don't get me wrong I love a V8 and have 5 of them with a Busso V6 as well.
You can buy a decent Merc E55K (£70k new) or QP V (£80k new) both cracking cars and have owned both for £10k and less. I have an T/99 R129 SL500 (I sold my SL60 AMG...idiot!) that was £85k new that cost a little over £10k. The SL60 was £100k new that I bought for £9k. The 4200 I have was £75k new & bought for £25k. I had low mileage SL55 AMG that was £100k new that cost £10k. There is a lot of stuff out there like this and the prices are getting smaller all the time. All these cars were decent examples and not sheds.
In comparison this Mk3 Chimaera would have been about £37k new and is £18-£19k at 98k miles. There aren't many cars with such low long term depreciation. It is quite rare other than some crazy Ferrari or other similar exotica prices. Again I love TVR's and what they are about and always wanted one as a kid so I have fulfilled a dream to get one. I am going to get annihilated here I'm sure but they nowhere near the same level of engineering as a Maserati 4200 with a 4.2 Ferrari V8 & Ferrari F1 gearbox or an E55K with that supercharged AMG V8. The older Mercs of the 80's & 90's are engineered so well. I am not going to say the TVR was a jumped up kit car but when they came out of the factory they weren't so great. Lots of enthusiastic owners have made them so much better over the years and that is great to see. However my head often just nudges ruling my heart as I am not made of money and have to be frugal to achieve what I do. I am just saying they are not a bargain in comparison to lots of other options.
That being said lots of other options are dull, boring and don't the same thrill of ownership or driving that a TVR does. What Peter Wheeler thought and the way he stuck to his gains is applauded and I thank him for it. I wish more operated in the same way. A zero compromise approach to all that he believed in. A rare thing then and even more so these days. Hats off to him.
I remember seeing Wedges and specifically a 420/250 SEAC at the Earl's Court motorshow when I was a kid. What a car these TVR's where and still are. However sensible head on I don't think this car is a bargain at £18-£19k IMHO as a private sale as it is. I have made an offer at what I think is the right price and it hasn't been rejected or accepted yet. If another comes along that I like and the price is right I will buy it. I have a chunk of cash sitting there ready to go but am not in any particular rush.
I have a Mk1 Chimaera 400 non-PAS at the moment and not sure if I'll keep or sell yet.
I agree with all your points but maybe we differ a little on the price of this Chimaera. I'm not tight but a canny purchaser most of the time and part of my work is buying IT/tech kit that we resell to our customers. I tend to work out the price I think is the right price for me or what it is worth to me, go forward with that and stick to it. Some you win and some you don't but there is never often a shortage of opportunities. I also haven't tons of cash to be too frivolous.
It is indeed a buyers market out there art the moment more than I have ever seen in my lifetime IMHO. Lots of big lumpy stuff is becoming very unpopular for most due to sentiment, electrification etc. and I don't see this trend changing. Don't get me wrong I love a V8 and have 5 of them with a Busso V6 as well.
You can buy a decent Merc E55K (£70k new) or QP V (£80k new) both cracking cars and have owned both for £10k and less. I have an T/99 R129 SL500 (I sold my SL60 AMG...idiot!) that was £85k new that cost a little over £10k. The SL60 was £100k new that I bought for £9k. The 4200 I have was £75k new & bought for £25k. I had low mileage SL55 AMG that was £100k new that cost £10k. There is a lot of stuff out there like this and the prices are getting smaller all the time. All these cars were decent examples and not sheds.
In comparison this Mk3 Chimaera would have been about £37k new and is £18-£19k at 98k miles. There aren't many cars with such low long term depreciation. It is quite rare other than some crazy Ferrari or other similar exotica prices. Again I love TVR's and what they are about and always wanted one as a kid so I have fulfilled a dream to get one. I am going to get annihilated here I'm sure but they nowhere near the same level of engineering as a Maserati 4200 with a 4.2 Ferrari V8 & Ferrari F1 gearbox or an E55K with that supercharged AMG V8. The older Mercs of the 80's & 90's are engineered so well. I am not going to say the TVR was a jumped up kit car but when they came out of the factory they weren't so great. Lots of enthusiastic owners have made them so much better over the years and that is great to see. However my head often just nudges ruling my heart as I am not made of money and have to be frugal to achieve what I do. I am just saying they are not a bargain in comparison to lots of other options.
That being said lots of other options are dull, boring and don't the same thrill of ownership or driving that a TVR does. What Peter Wheeler thought and the way he stuck to his gains is applauded and I thank him for it. I wish more operated in the same way. A zero compromise approach to all that he believed in. A rare thing then and even more so these days. Hats off to him.
I remember seeing Wedges and specifically a 420/250 SEAC at the Earl's Court motorshow when I was a kid. What a car these TVR's where and still are. However sensible head on I don't think this car is a bargain at £18-£19k IMHO as a private sale as it is. I have made an offer at what I think is the right price and it hasn't been rejected or accepted yet. If another comes along that I like and the price is right I will buy it. I have a chunk of cash sitting there ready to go but am not in any particular rush.
I've been through plenty of cars myself and your points about the depreciation of performance cars is valid, I've had my eye on E55 and Maserati QP myself! But those are still considered modern cars and on the downwards trend.
Most TVRs due to their age are now into 'classic' territory. 5/6 yrs ago, cars like that would have struggled to reach 4 figures. I bought a 2000 reg 400 with 80k on in for under £7k in 2013. It had a few niggles but nothing major. Kept it over 3 years.
Many buyers when they find a car say it is a 'keeper' but it rarely is. When it comes to resale time, that car will have over 100k on it and even if it is immaculate and runs great, it will be valued less by most potential buyers, it's just a fact.
There have been several for sale with so-called 'high' mileage recently. This one in the classifieds has been reduced from £10,500 to £10k and now to £8995:
https://www.classicandsportscar.com/classifieds/cl...
And this one with over 100k miles on it was reduced from £9995 to £8750 (now sold)
https://www.classicandsportscar.com/classifieds/cl...
Most TVRs due to their age are now into 'classic' territory. 5/6 yrs ago, cars like that would have struggled to reach 4 figures. I bought a 2000 reg 400 with 80k on in for under £7k in 2013. It had a few niggles but nothing major. Kept it over 3 years.
Many buyers when they find a car say it is a 'keeper' but it rarely is. When it comes to resale time, that car will have over 100k on it and even if it is immaculate and runs great, it will be valued less by most potential buyers, it's just a fact.
There have been several for sale with so-called 'high' mileage recently. This one in the classifieds has been reduced from £10,500 to £10k and now to £8995:
https://www.classicandsportscar.com/classifieds/cl...
And this one with over 100k miles on it was reduced from £9995 to £8750 (now sold)
https://www.classicandsportscar.com/classifieds/cl...
Classic Chim said:
There is potential for any moving part to fail at 50,000 miles or might last 200,000 miles. There’s a Tuscan I think that's over 225,000 miles and a Chim that’s around 170,000 I seem to remember that’s serviced by a respected specialist and runs on and on.
I think Frank's chim (Blaze_away on here) has done around 240,000 miles but you'd never think it to look at.To me it seems the low mileage = better attitude is still very prevalent on TVRs though, with just about every ad referencing 'low-mileage' and a cursory glance though the classifieds seems to suggest that 70k+ mileage Chimaeras are almost into 'high-mileage Ferrari' levels of rarity...
Not suggesting anything untoward but I find it incredible that so many of these cars, many 20+ years old, have barely turned a wheel. I also wonder whether some might have benefited from the not-particularly-rare case of failed speedometer?! I reckon the annual MOT/service trip is the only mileage some of these cars do!
A personal favourite was one advertised a while ago that had done just a few hundred miles in around 8 years, advertised with the line 'regular, light use' - suggesting the car was driven out of the garage and driven straight back in again, every 3rd Tuesday providing the date equaled the root of a diverse integer...
I agree that the more these cars are used the less problems occur. I would always prefer the sign that one had been used regularly over a lower mileage example. Mine has clocked up over 2,000 miles since May............. mostly going back and forwards from a TVR specialist
I'd agree with all of this. I make a concerted effort and point to use my 4200 often enough it doesn't suffer from typical garage queenitus. Even when not taken out for a drive it gets moved and run up to temperature. It does about 1k miles per year and in a 55%RH dehumidified garage. Many TVR's are not kept this was don't get driven year to year and even miss MOT's. Regardless of how low the mileage is this is not good for any car. They need to be used often enough. My 4200 never gets used for short journeys and will always do 20-30 miles min always allowing it a bit of time to get engine/box up to temp before giving it anywhere near full beens. She leads a charmed life!
I would never pay over the top for silly low miles cars unless I felt it was warrantied. Many of these never do long runs only doing short stop/start journeys not even getting up to full temperature. This is terrible for all cars and some idiots a re paying more for a car that is actually worse in the real workld than a cheaper higher miles more used car. More fool them.
I think an ideal TVR for me has been regularly used, well serviced and looked after always having money spent when required. A car of 2-6k miles per year is great and ideal for me. I haven't written off the 2002 Mk3 450 I mentioned at the start but don't see that paying £18-£19k makes sense. Rightly or wrongly for the bulk of the market it won't be an easy car to resell if I ever wanted to as most will wrongly discount it on mileage alone. Those a little less short sighted and more in the know will understand it is an option for sure. However I am not going to pay more than I think it is worth.
Ultimately the market always decides. You only need one buyer to rock up and stump up the cash. As I know from the Maserati world some cars can take months and years to sell sometimes. Often the longer they are for sale the worse it gets as people wonder why it hasn't sold. Sometimes it can be a great car and for whatever reason it doesn't sell.
All I know is when a deal is on the table sometimes it is best to take a guaranteed quick sale. Yes, you could sell for more but also you could never sell or take ages. A bird in the hand and all that. If the seller takes too long to decide and I find another I will buy it and their back to square one. No skin off my back. One thing is for sure.....these kind of cars are far from main stream and there will never be an abundance of buyers biting your arm off to buy it. It is a tiny tiny spec in the marketplace.
The first Chim I bought was my ideal car. With 4 previous owners all well looked after with full documented history from day one. Nice colour combo and good upgrades with 52k miles. It wasn't silly cheap or silly dear just the right price.
I guess the question should be if this 98k miles car was 50k what price would it be?
I would never pay over the top for silly low miles cars unless I felt it was warrantied. Many of these never do long runs only doing short stop/start journeys not even getting up to full temperature. This is terrible for all cars and some idiots a re paying more for a car that is actually worse in the real workld than a cheaper higher miles more used car. More fool them.
I think an ideal TVR for me has been regularly used, well serviced and looked after always having money spent when required. A car of 2-6k miles per year is great and ideal for me. I haven't written off the 2002 Mk3 450 I mentioned at the start but don't see that paying £18-£19k makes sense. Rightly or wrongly for the bulk of the market it won't be an easy car to resell if I ever wanted to as most will wrongly discount it on mileage alone. Those a little less short sighted and more in the know will understand it is an option for sure. However I am not going to pay more than I think it is worth.
Ultimately the market always decides. You only need one buyer to rock up and stump up the cash. As I know from the Maserati world some cars can take months and years to sell sometimes. Often the longer they are for sale the worse it gets as people wonder why it hasn't sold. Sometimes it can be a great car and for whatever reason it doesn't sell.
All I know is when a deal is on the table sometimes it is best to take a guaranteed quick sale. Yes, you could sell for more but also you could never sell or take ages. A bird in the hand and all that. If the seller takes too long to decide and I find another I will buy it and their back to square one. No skin off my back. One thing is for sure.....these kind of cars are far from main stream and there will never be an abundance of buyers biting your arm off to buy it. It is a tiny tiny spec in the marketplace.
The first Chim I bought was my ideal car. With 4 previous owners all well looked after with full documented history from day one. Nice colour combo and good upgrades with 52k miles. It wasn't silly cheap or silly dear just the right price.
I guess the question should be if this 98k miles car was 50k what price would it be?
rockits said:
You can buy a decent Merc E55K (£70k new) or QP V (£80k new) both cracking cars and have owned both for £10k and less. I have an T/99 R129 SL500 (I sold my SL60 AMG...idiot!) that was £85k new that cost a little over £10k. The SL60 was £100k new that I bought for £9k. The 4200 I have was £75k new & bought for £25k. I had low mileage SL55 AMG that was £100k new that cost £10k. There is a lot of stuff out there like this and the prices are getting smaller all the time. All these cars were decent examples and not sheds.
In comparison this Mk3 Chimaera would have been about £37k new and is £18-£19k at 98k miles. There aren't many cars with such low long term depreciation.
There's a solid reason for that and it's pretty much the same that has lifted prices of air-cooled Porsches (antedeluvian devices compared to the above, too) over the past decades. Well, two, actually: 1) a driving experience uncorrupted by interfering technology and excess weight and 2) long-term sustainability and low running costs due to the lack of interfering technology and excess weight, combined with proven, simple and mostly abundant componentry. In comparison this Mk3 Chimaera would have been about £37k new and is £18-£19k at 98k miles. There aren't many cars with such low long term depreciation.
They were built by hand in a shed, I can rebuild it using the same techniques in my garage almost indefinitely. And where high technology will always be superseded by more modern technology at some point, analogue/mechanical devices can only be bettered by spending disproportionally more money (see the exponential rise of Singer Porsche pricing into the stratosphere in the course of just a few years, for example).
Over the past few years, I've been developing my Chimaera along similar lines as Eagle/Alfaholics et al with cost only a secondary consideration (if at all). I can afford that. But I'd wince at the financial prospect of running any of the above cars for longer than a couple of years, let alone develop them to a level that I'd be happy with long-term (suspension, brakes, specific weak points - all significantly more expensive to do 'right' on a 1,700 kg 'sports' vehicle compared to one that barely weighs a tonne.
Of course, there's lots of cheaper Chimaeras out there, even with low mileages. However they tend to be not very good.
A couple of things but I don’t disagree with any of the logic on here.
1 The other second hand cars mentioned,,, are likely to cost significantly more to own and run and especially if they go wrong
2 the late car mentioned on here with a bit of TLC and a few bob knocked of the price is to my mind still a good price because of its relative rarity and it’s the newest one.
People mention low mileage as a selling point because that's what drives dealers and they set a precedent so we all think it’s the most important thing, maybe it is but one of the best cars I ever owned had over 240,000 miles
Yes indeed Franks car has over 200,000 and with some clever painting here or there looks great and goes proper fast, triggers broom maybe but it proves they ain’t dead with a few miles on them.
Finally if the later car is almost what 8-10 years younger so is the wiring and every other component.
If you buy an older car with lower miles that’s great, nothing wrong with that and if re sale value is all that counts you’ll hardly drive it or it will become a High miler.
Unfortunately I think many cars get left to semi die because people dare not put miles on them which has been discussed countless times and shows they often have a lot of faults lurking because until you do drive and put them through proper usage gators to any number of other things are suffering brittleness etc
If a few K either way matters so much that people don’t use them to re sell them down the line then fair enough but in the scheme of things you have half the fun and just as much worry.
If you hope to recoupe your costs then you simply can’t drive them at all because every mile will knock off re sale later on.
Half the speedos don’t work properly or have had faults. Any car driven in or around major cities will be higher mileage than recorded as half don’t register a thing below 25 mph.
I think in both cases I like and think both look like good cars and I’m not happy to be publically comparing them. They both appear to have great merit.
Finally they are Tvr so rare as hell if it’s the colour combo engine config you like as there only about 1500/2000 registered on the road the last time I looked ( years ago)
Brexit is the reason so many are forsale so some people are cashing in or just can’t afford to keep them anymore as well as times are changing with electric this and that etc.
What I do know is there’s nothing quite like a Tvr and High miler or not that silver car has a lot of potential in the hands of a someone who like spannering and bringing cars to the boil
I had a rebuilt engine at 48,000 miles mostly because at the time I could rather than because it was needed. Franks car is a classic case in point, someone spent a lot of money on that car over a long period, Frank robbed it off the owner ( only joking big man ) because of the huge mileage. Frank has also spent money and has really given it a new lease of life, if he’d got a 48,000 mile car he’d still be doing half the repairs and updates as it’s necessary on many of them.
The difference is Frank enjoys his Tvr without worrying about the resale costs which is a very good thing when you own these things or indeed any other specialist vehicle.
If I’ve had years of fun and pleasure from my car a few K lost on resale has to be worth it as I’ve never believed in owning anything just to look at.
As I say my car is now twice the mileage it was when I got it, it’s also twicevthe car imho.
If some fool thinks a 28,000 mile standard car is better then go buy it. I’ve probably spent close to 20,000 pounds which a form of madness so dont listen too me
Hmmm just a couple of points,,,,
ETA
A dealer said mine was high mileage at 75,000 miles ,,,, f
king wker st head prick,,, I hope this is censored but for god sake. They will be driving owners off the road with that attitude. Remember they are only interested in capitol profit and on second hand cars it really upsets me as everyone thinks they are experts, no they just want money end of. Sorry but it’s true. One offered less than 14 for mine and suggested the upgrades meant nothing, well try driving it then tell me that.
I’m inclined to keep it as it’s future proofed for a good 10/15 years in good hands.
And breath,, Enjoy looking and testing, when one just feels right to drive it’s probably the best car regardless of any old flannel a dealer comes out with.
1 The other second hand cars mentioned,,, are likely to cost significantly more to own and run and especially if they go wrong
2 the late car mentioned on here with a bit of TLC and a few bob knocked of the price is to my mind still a good price because of its relative rarity and it’s the newest one.
People mention low mileage as a selling point because that's what drives dealers and they set a precedent so we all think it’s the most important thing, maybe it is but one of the best cars I ever owned had over 240,000 miles
Yes indeed Franks car has over 200,000 and with some clever painting here or there looks great and goes proper fast, triggers broom maybe but it proves they ain’t dead with a few miles on them.
Finally if the later car is almost what 8-10 years younger so is the wiring and every other component.
If you buy an older car with lower miles that’s great, nothing wrong with that and if re sale value is all that counts you’ll hardly drive it or it will become a High miler.
Unfortunately I think many cars get left to semi die because people dare not put miles on them which has been discussed countless times and shows they often have a lot of faults lurking because until you do drive and put them through proper usage gators to any number of other things are suffering brittleness etc
If a few K either way matters so much that people don’t use them to re sell them down the line then fair enough but in the scheme of things you have half the fun and just as much worry.
If you hope to recoupe your costs then you simply can’t drive them at all because every mile will knock off re sale later on.
Half the speedos don’t work properly or have had faults. Any car driven in or around major cities will be higher mileage than recorded as half don’t register a thing below 25 mph.
I think in both cases I like and think both look like good cars and I’m not happy to be publically comparing them. They both appear to have great merit.
Finally they are Tvr so rare as hell if it’s the colour combo engine config you like as there only about 1500/2000 registered on the road the last time I looked ( years ago)
Brexit is the reason so many are forsale so some people are cashing in or just can’t afford to keep them anymore as well as times are changing with electric this and that etc.
What I do know is there’s nothing quite like a Tvr and High miler or not that silver car has a lot of potential in the hands of a someone who like spannering and bringing cars to the boil
I had a rebuilt engine at 48,000 miles mostly because at the time I could rather than because it was needed. Franks car is a classic case in point, someone spent a lot of money on that car over a long period, Frank robbed it off the owner ( only joking big man ) because of the huge mileage. Frank has also spent money and has really given it a new lease of life, if he’d got a 48,000 mile car he’d still be doing half the repairs and updates as it’s necessary on many of them.
The difference is Frank enjoys his Tvr without worrying about the resale costs which is a very good thing when you own these things or indeed any other specialist vehicle.
If I’ve had years of fun and pleasure from my car a few K lost on resale has to be worth it as I’ve never believed in owning anything just to look at.
As I say my car is now twice the mileage it was when I got it, it’s also twicevthe car imho.
If some fool thinks a 28,000 mile standard car is better then go buy it. I’ve probably spent close to 20,000 pounds which a form of madness so dont listen too me
Hmmm just a couple of points,,,,
ETA
A dealer said mine was high mileage at 75,000 miles ,,,, f
king wker st head prick,,, I hope this is censored but for god sake. They will be driving owners off the road with that attitude. Remember they are only interested in capitol profit and on second hand cars it really upsets me as everyone thinks they are experts, no they just want money end of. Sorry but it’s true. One offered less than 14 for mine and suggested the upgrades meant nothing, well try driving it then tell me that. I’m inclined to keep it as it’s future proofed for a good 10/15 years in good hands.
And breath,, Enjoy looking and testing, when one just feels right to drive it’s probably the best car regardless of any old flannel a dealer comes out with.
Edited by Classic Chim on Tuesday 21st August 11:43
Classic Chim said:
ETA
A dealer said mine was high mileage at 75,000 miles ,,,,
A dealer said mine was high mileage at 75,000 miles ,,,,
My '95 car is on 79,000 - the thing is the first owner did 50,000 of those in the first 5 years!
If subsequent owners had kept that up it would be giving Frank's car a run for it's money
79k works out at less than 3,500/year over it's life and the fact that is considered 'high mileage' is mental.
Many of these cars must just sit in garages for years gathering dust.
Most are though, polished and brought out for Burghley once a year,,,
This mileage thing is just a kick in the balls used by dealers to well kick you in the balls and designed mostly to disarm you.
Funny how dealers keep the respect of the community as they are clearly the ones trying to profiteer and often someone sells a car as the dealer sucks through his teeth at huge loss then a week later is advertised for mant thousands more. A warrantee is not worth thevpaper so,etimrs and if it’s a big failure will do all they can to get out of it.
I might need to sell, some dealers are kind gentle types who have my interests at heart,,,,,,,, !
That’s my cards marked I’d rather sell privately for less than let dealers take my car and add 5k after a bit of polishing.
This mileage thing is just a kick in the balls used by dealers to well kick you in the balls and designed mostly to disarm you.
Funny how dealers keep the respect of the community as they are clearly the ones trying to profiteer and often someone sells a car as the dealer sucks through his teeth at huge loss then a week later is advertised for mant thousands more. A warrantee is not worth thevpaper so,etimrs and if it’s a big failure will do all they can to get out of it.
I might need to sell, some dealers are kind gentle types who have my interests at heart,,,,,,,, !
That’s my cards marked
I’d rather sell privately for less than let dealers take my car and add 5k after a bit of polishing. Classic Chim said:
Unfortunately I think many cars get left to semi die because people dare not put miles on them which has been discussed countless times and shows they often have a lot of faults lurking because until you do drive and put them through proper usage gators to any number of other things are suffering brittleness etc
Exactly that. And another thing - the moment a car is properly embedded into the classic scene, no one cares about the mileage except when it's near 'delivery milage' (and I might hope, has been properly stored in the interim). For all other cars the notion is accepted that to have passed through time in a condition that allows the next owner to enjoy it on the road, it has seen a proper amount of refurbishment which renders the recorded mileage from new a tad irrelevant. I don't think the likes of Singer will bat an eyelid when you provide them with a base car that has covered 150,000, 200,000 or 300,000 miles either The end result (and value thereof) will be the same. I'd say there's only two things to consider when buying a TVR -
- Is this the car/spec I really want, or can it be brought up to that spec without destroying or diminishing the intrinsic value of the car - for which you after all will be paying? (i.e. no use buying a pristine collector-grade car if you are going to tear it apart, change the colour, re-trim the interior etc, anyway)
- Condition, condition, condition.
Classic Chim said:
A couple of things but I don’t disagree with any of the logic on here.
1 The other second hand cars mentioned,,, are likely to cost significantly more to own and run and especially if they go wrong
2 the late car mentioned on here with a bit of TLC and a few bob knocked of the price is to my mind still a good price because of its relative rarity and it’s the newest one.
ETA
A dealer said mine was high mileage at 75,000 miles ,,,, fking wker st head prick,,, I hope this is censored but for god sake. They will be driving owners off the road with that attitude. Remember they are only interested in capitol profit and on second hand cars it really upsets me as everyone thinks they are experts, no they just want money end of. Sorry but it’s true. One offered less than 14 for mine and suggested the upgrades meant nothing, well try driving it then tell me that.
I’m inclined to keep it as it’s future proofed for a good 10/15 years in good hands.
And breath,, Enjoy looking and testing, when one just feels right to drive it’s probably the best car regardless of any old flannel a dealer comes out with.
Great to see there is so much passion on here for the brand.1 The other second hand cars mentioned,,, are likely to cost significantly more to own and run and especially if they go wrong
2 the late car mentioned on here with a bit of TLC and a few bob knocked of the price is to my mind still a good price because of its relative rarity and it’s the newest one.
ETA
A dealer said mine was high mileage at 75,000 miles ,,,, f
king wker st head prick,,, I hope this is censored but for god sake. They will be driving owners off the road with that attitude. Remember they are only interested in capitol profit and on second hand cars it really upsets me as everyone thinks they are experts, no they just want money end of. Sorry but it’s true. One offered less than 14 for mine and suggested the upgrades meant nothing, well try driving it then tell me that. I’m inclined to keep it as it’s future proofed for a good 10/15 years in good hands.
And breath,, Enjoy looking and testing, when one just feels right to drive it’s probably the best car regardless of any old flannel a dealer comes out with.
Edited by Classic Chim on Tuesday 21st August 11:43
All of those cars expect for the QP are surprisingly cost effective to keep as have zero depreciation and in some cases have appreciated. The QP is still finding its bottom which is why I offloaded mine a few months back as didn't fancy dropping £5k on it. The 4200 has been a great buy as has cost £2k over 3 years to service/maintain. I have spent £3k on tasteful mods that I can get back on the car as increased price or remove back to stock and sell parts for same £3k easy. It has gone up in value by £5k so am totally neutral on it or £3k up. The SL has gone up in value and the E55K has bottomed now.
I guess like TVR's.....buy a bad one and it can hurt.....buy a good one and it can be much kinder to the old back pocket.
I agree the later car with a bit of work & cash could make sense but I don't think it does at £18-£19k for me. My offer was £15k which I thought was about right.
Do the body-shells every deteriorate over time/years and become less strong etc? Good of course there is no rust issue on the bodies but I guess fibreglass has its own issues with star cracks.
I get the impression your not a fan of dealers?! I am not a fan either but they are there for a reason as many people (again rightly or wrongly) won;t buy private anymore. A dealer can offer perceived piece of mind and finance/warranty etc. regardless of what we think of its worth. There are less private sales now than years back due to the way people buy/run/finance cars now. Also want less time wasted and less hassle. They want to drive in, swap and drive out.
I am sure for most of us enthusiasts the chase and searching is half the fun. Less fun come resale time and the selling can be painful, time consuming with plenty of dipsticks & dreamers out there.
Decisions decisions
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