Heads, cams and valve springs
Discussion
I've looking to do some upgrades to my 450chim.
I've been on the V8developments site, and I'm looking at the "Warrior" heads and a stealth cam.
The site says that double valve springs are recommended for use with the stealth cam. All good.
I have a feeling that double valve springs are used on the 450 anyway, does anyone know for sure if I'm remembering correctly??
If not, what sort of cost am I looking at for a set?? I can't find them of the v8dev site!
Thanks!
I've been on the V8developments site, and I'm looking at the "Warrior" heads and a stealth cam.
The site says that double valve springs are recommended for use with the stealth cam. All good.
I have a feeling that double valve springs are used on the 450 anyway, does anyone know for sure if I'm remembering correctly??
If not, what sort of cost am I looking at for a set?? I can't find them of the v8dev site!
Thanks!
http://www.v8developments.co.uk/technical/head_por...
Specifies they come assembled with double valve springs to suit your chosen camshaft.
Specifies they come assembled with double valve springs to suit your chosen camshaft.
Macbags said:
Steve. I'd be interested to hear your journey so far, the effectiveness of any current upgrades and the experience you have with new heads and a cam.
I have an entirely stock 450 and will no doubt soon be tempted into sensible and progressive upgrades
C
I'm not far ahead of you reallyI have an entirely stock 450 and will no doubt soon be tempted into sensible and progressive upgrades
C
I've replaced all the coolant and heater pipes with silicone versions from ACT.
I also picked up a set of ceramic plug leads while I was in the US and fitted those.
I have a full induction kit from ACT sitting here waiting to go on, along with one of Clives decat Y pieces.
I also have a new set of PAS pipes.
At the moment I'm at the preventative stage, rather than the mods, but the mods are on the way!
Belle427 said:
Don't rule out going forced induction, you will pay out probably the best part of £3000 for heads, cam and induction etc to gain around roughly 40 bhp.
You can gain probably 80 bhp with a low psi turbo install.
Absolutely agree.You can gain probably 80 bhp with a low psi turbo install.
I have a few things holding me back on FI.
Nobody can tell me how MOT compatible these turbo cars are, and I don't want to have to take it all off to refit the cat every year.
I don't want to get too far away from how the car came from the factory. I think staying N/A is truer to the cars original design.
My car is reasonably reliable, I don't want to take away from that at all.
Its not totally out of the question though!!
My 450 engine was brought upto Dominator spec by V8D which Inc 72mm plen and 45mm trumpets, with an AP clutch for circa £5k. That did Inc a few GEMS mods as Well come to think of it.
I simply saw keeping it NA was the way I wanted to go (or stay) with my upgrades. I also got the confidence of a fully rebuilt engine!
I simply saw keeping it NA was the way I wanted to go (or stay) with my upgrades. I also got the confidence of a fully rebuilt engine!
motul1974 said:
My 450 engine was brought upto Dominator spec by V8D which Inc 72mm plen and 45mm trumpets, with an AP clutch for circa £5k. That did Inc a few GEMS mods as Well come to think of it.
I simply saw keeping it NA was the way I wanted to go (or stay) with my upgrades. I also got the confidence of a fully rebuilt engine!
Is it still a 4.6, or did that include a capacity upgrade too??I simply saw keeping it NA was the way I wanted to go (or stay) with my upgrades. I also got the confidence of a fully rebuilt engine!
What sort of power is it putting out now?
SteveR1979 said:
Macbags said:
Steve. I'd be interested to hear your journey so far, the effectiveness of any current upgrades and the experience you have with new heads and a cam.
I have an entirely stock 450 and will no doubt soon be tempted into sensible and progressive upgrades
C
I'm not far ahead of you reallyI have an entirely stock 450 and will no doubt soon be tempted into sensible and progressive upgrades
C
I've replaced all the coolant and heater pipes with silicone versions from ACT.
I also picked up a set of ceramic plug leads while I was in the US and fitted those.
I have a full induction kit from ACT sitting here waiting to go on, along with one of Clives decat Y pieces.
I also have a new set of PAS pipes.
At the moment I'm at the preventative stage, rather than the mods, but the mods are on the way!
Haven't had mine for that long and for a decent amount of time I thought she had plenty of horses but then after a while you want a bit more! I'm a little nervous as she currently runs great and will pull from tick over in every gear without any sign of shunt. I'd be so mad with myself if a chase an additional 30-50 bhp and loose what I've already got.
Keep on posting your thoughts and ultimately your findings....I'll follow your thread with interest
C
Just be aware that forced induction requires lower compression, whereas modifying a normally aspirated engine tends to involve higher compression.
So it's one or the other, not down one route and then the other as well.
For reference, my 4.6 engine was built planning to turbocharge, from an absolutely standard Range Rover block, pistons, crank and heads, specifically to keep the compression low.
Stock TVR 400s make about 225-240 bhp
Stock TVR 450s make about 260-270 bhp give or take.
Stock 500s make under 300 bhp.
You will hear other versions of this.
My engine has been turbocharged without going mad. It makes 325 bhp at 2.5 psi boost, and 395 bhp at 7.5 psi.
The big numbers you read about are made by using far higher boost levels, but that is where the risks start.
The other thing turbocharging, or supercharging, does is gives you serious amounts of torque.
My engine makes around 400 ft lbs at low boost, 525 ft lbs at higher boost.
Final comment - when you have spent your first £2,000+ gaining 20-30 bhp, you will realise that its only the bigger gains that make a real difference, so take your time, work out what you want from the car, talk to people including experts, and plan, plan, plan.
And there's a lot to be said for keeping the car exactly as it came out of the factory. Bloody sight cheaper, for one thing.
So it's one or the other, not down one route and then the other as well.
For reference, my 4.6 engine was built planning to turbocharge, from an absolutely standard Range Rover block, pistons, crank and heads, specifically to keep the compression low.
Stock TVR 400s make about 225-240 bhp
Stock TVR 450s make about 260-270 bhp give or take.
Stock 500s make under 300 bhp.
You will hear other versions of this.
My engine has been turbocharged without going mad. It makes 325 bhp at 2.5 psi boost, and 395 bhp at 7.5 psi.
The big numbers you read about are made by using far higher boost levels, but that is where the risks start.
The other thing turbocharging, or supercharging, does is gives you serious amounts of torque.
My engine makes around 400 ft lbs at low boost, 525 ft lbs at higher boost.
Final comment - when you have spent your first £2,000+ gaining 20-30 bhp, you will realise that its only the bigger gains that make a real difference, so take your time, work out what you want from the car, talk to people including experts, and plan, plan, plan.
And there's a lot to be said for keeping the car exactly as it came out of the factory. Bloody sight cheaper, for one thing.
^^ This is definitely the best advice you'll get^^
Tuning a Rover V8 to produce meaningful gains is an expensive business, so if you're chasing numbers the most cost effective option has to be a turbo, but as Anthony says adding forced induction safely needs careful planning.
I took my 4.0HC and added a Stealth cam from V8 Developments, completely decatted the exhaust system by removing the pre-cats and adding an ACT Y piece, added an ACT induction kit then replaced the Lucas 14CUX system and distributor with a Canems engine management system removing the restrictive airflow meter all of which cost me roughly £3,000 in total.
What I ended up with is a 4.0 Chimaera that made a genuine 250ft/lbs and 260ft/lbs which is about as far as you can go before getting into some serious further spending so I stopped trying at that point and started to look at other ways to make the car quicker and more enjoyable to drive. Lets be clear 250ft/lbs and 260ft/lbs in any car that weighs under 1100kg should make for rapid progress on the road so to me spending a further £3k just to add the next 30hp simply didn't make financial sense especially as it was quite clear the limiting factor for the car was nothing to do with a lack of power.
To access the full performance potential meant readjusting my attention and spending away from making the engine produce more power and focusing on tyres, suspension and brakes. I enjoyed great results from a set of Uniroyal Rainsport 3 tyres, a set of the latest spec Bilstein coil overs, a full suspension geometry setup by Mat Smith and the Brembo caliper and big disc upgrade.
All this cost £1,000 less than a set of of heads which were only ever going to add an additional 30hp or so, to me a standard TVR Chimaera is somewhat of a rough diamond with huge potential for polishing out some of the flaws that can make the car frustrating to live with. The engine management change made the biggest improvement adding drivability, usability, engine refinement and throttle response which I further improved by adding a flywheel that's a full 10lbs lighter than the millstone heavy one the car came with from the factory.
I then went on to add leather Recaro seats from a Jag XJS that offer far better comfort and cornering support, deleted the Chimaera gear linkage improving the gear shift and host of other little improvements that combined with the right tyres, the latest Bilteins and more powerful brakes transformed the car into quite the rapid weapon on tight winding roads but retained the car's comfortable mile munching GT credentials.
Finally I dramatically improved the fuel economy to deliver the petrol cost equivalent of 50mpg while retaining that 250ft/lbs and 260ft/lbs which quite simply means I use and enjoy the car a whole lot more than when I was getting a 23mpg on expensive petrol. It's just a different approach to the normal number chasing journey most people seem to take, but it worked for me
Tuning a Rover V8 to produce meaningful gains is an expensive business, so if you're chasing numbers the most cost effective option has to be a turbo, but as Anthony says adding forced induction safely needs careful planning.
I took my 4.0HC and added a Stealth cam from V8 Developments, completely decatted the exhaust system by removing the pre-cats and adding an ACT Y piece, added an ACT induction kit then replaced the Lucas 14CUX system and distributor with a Canems engine management system removing the restrictive airflow meter all of which cost me roughly £3,000 in total.
What I ended up with is a 4.0 Chimaera that made a genuine 250ft/lbs and 260ft/lbs which is about as far as you can go before getting into some serious further spending so I stopped trying at that point and started to look at other ways to make the car quicker and more enjoyable to drive. Lets be clear 250ft/lbs and 260ft/lbs in any car that weighs under 1100kg should make for rapid progress on the road so to me spending a further £3k just to add the next 30hp simply didn't make financial sense especially as it was quite clear the limiting factor for the car was nothing to do with a lack of power.
To access the full performance potential meant readjusting my attention and spending away from making the engine produce more power and focusing on tyres, suspension and brakes. I enjoyed great results from a set of Uniroyal Rainsport 3 tyres, a set of the latest spec Bilstein coil overs, a full suspension geometry setup by Mat Smith and the Brembo caliper and big disc upgrade.
All this cost £1,000 less than a set of of heads which were only ever going to add an additional 30hp or so, to me a standard TVR Chimaera is somewhat of a rough diamond with huge potential for polishing out some of the flaws that can make the car frustrating to live with. The engine management change made the biggest improvement adding drivability, usability, engine refinement and throttle response which I further improved by adding a flywheel that's a full 10lbs lighter than the millstone heavy one the car came with from the factory.
I then went on to add leather Recaro seats from a Jag XJS that offer far better comfort and cornering support, deleted the Chimaera gear linkage improving the gear shift and host of other little improvements that combined with the right tyres, the latest Bilteins and more powerful brakes transformed the car into quite the rapid weapon on tight winding roads but retained the car's comfortable mile munching GT credentials.
Finally I dramatically improved the fuel economy to deliver the petrol cost equivalent of 50mpg while retaining that 250ft/lbs and 260ft/lbs which quite simply means I use and enjoy the car a whole lot more than when I was getting a 23mpg on expensive petrol. It's just a different approach to the normal number chasing journey most people seem to take, but it worked for me
Your std 450 engine is perfect for turboing and as already said just use a light pressure system and keep your original ecu etc and that's your best value for money by far.
If you want to tune your normally aspirated 450 then you're kind of starting from the wrong place, what with the 450 being about the lowest compression std tvr engine.
Knowing what I know from tuning many of these cars - if I had a 450 I wouldn't think twice about adding a light pressure turbo. It's a no-brainer to me.
If you want to tune your normally aspirated 450 then you're kind of starting from the wrong place, what with the 450 being about the lowest compression std tvr engine.
Knowing what I know from tuning many of these cars - if I had a 450 I wouldn't think twice about adding a light pressure turbo. It's a no-brainer to me.
SteveR1979 said:
What are the Gems mods????
Excuse my ignorance!!
Gems specific cam with Modified front cover to to suit + flywheel sensor mod. Gems needs cam and crank sensors - simpler to add when the engines out.Excuse my ignorance!!
Oh and i forgot, I was fortunate that my 450 already had pocketed pistons and Big Valves which saved money - it seems a bit of a lottery as to how it left the factory! Lol
Add a Turbo drop the value by 1/3rd and struggle to sell it.
Pointless waste of money as are most tuning aids on a car that needs serious updates in other areas to even consider it as a reasonable option.
Don’t get sucked into the idea you’ll use your car more, you won’t you’ll use it less then sell as almost all of them get sold.
I’ve not known a Turbo converted car that hasn’t has some if not major problems usually not long after install.
Like all you read on Pistonheads there’s a lot owners never mention about problems etc.
I’d include highly tuned engines of any description as risky in a road car from a reliability point of view.
Turbo delete the muscle car feel, looses all its character for a few moments of wooosh but years of heat bordering overheat and an engine bay that’s crammed full of pipes and red hot heat.
If competing against other more modern day road users with safer proper handling cars you’ll be behind after the first turn so what’s the point.
Hedge finders.
The 450 is a gem of an engine and has less power than the 500 but spins up and vibrates less so actually propels you almost as good. Big figures are just two numbers at the end of the Rev range, what about how the engine works in between those two set of numbers. Less engine resistance = more power.
Look to fine tune your 450 rather than make drastic changes would be my advice.
If it runs well with no shunting I’d be inclined to leave well alone.
Once you’ve got over whatever power you have which might be 260 to 400 and you will get used to it rather quickly your left still driving our roads at 2000 -3500 revs 95% of the time so its drivability becomes far more important imho.
It is ironic and factual what QBee says.
The car in its original make up can be very reasonable on fuel etc and if you have a shunt free one with tight mechanicals a very desirable car.
Overall the sound of a N/A Tvr is one of its finest assets because it sounds so great pottering through a town or village,,, you just don’t need to drive fast to leave a deep impression.
BV heads, decked block and or heads , 4.0 pistons, you’ll not need much more on a 450 to have a deeply powerful smooth engine. Do some research, bag some old pistons etc, for the cost of any decent FI install you could have a very fast car with a rock solid engine fully rebuilt.
Far too much is said about bhp numbers, it’s one aspect of the cars rather than the only aspect.
Now before I get ripped
I also like FI cars and all tuning aids but only if I wanna win something,,, my 450 is not the most powerful by a long long way but still goes really well and holds its own against cars with 50 hp more,,,, what’s going on there then.
I can do long road trips, I can run to the shops, I use it as a daily ,,,,, when I’m using it !
Just runs sweet as a nut and revs to limiter effortlessly. A few hp less but gets used twice as much..
I’m starting an action group
KEEP OUR TVR PURE and free from modern tech,,,,,, unless it’s an ECU change, decent tyres Suspension, steering etc etc,,,,
Pinch of salt boys but I worry nearly all tuned cars become bit part players and owners loose interest or simply sell them.
I like stories that go something like
17 years ownership and still love it.
Nearly always cars that are near bod standard..... makes you think.
Pointless waste of money as are most tuning aids on a car that needs serious updates in other areas to even consider it as a reasonable option.
Don’t get sucked into the idea you’ll use your car more, you won’t you’ll use it less then sell as almost all of them get sold.
I’ve not known a Turbo converted car that hasn’t has some if not major problems usually not long after install.
Like all you read on Pistonheads there’s a lot owners never mention about problems etc.
I’d include highly tuned engines of any description as risky in a road car from a reliability point of view.
Turbo delete the muscle car feel, looses all its character for a few moments of wooosh but years of heat bordering overheat and an engine bay that’s crammed full of pipes and red hot heat.
If competing against other more modern day road users with safer proper handling cars you’ll be behind after the first turn so what’s the point.
Hedge finders.
The 450 is a gem of an engine and has less power than the 500 but spins up and vibrates less so actually propels you almost as good. Big figures are just two numbers at the end of the Rev range, what about how the engine works in between those two set of numbers. Less engine resistance = more power.
Look to fine tune your 450 rather than make drastic changes would be my advice.
If it runs well with no shunting I’d be inclined to leave well alone.
Once you’ve got over whatever power you have which might be 260 to 400 and you will get used to it rather quickly your left still driving our roads at 2000 -3500 revs 95% of the time so its drivability becomes far more important imho.
It is ironic and factual what QBee says.
The car in its original make up can be very reasonable on fuel etc and if you have a shunt free one with tight mechanicals a very desirable car.
Overall the sound of a N/A Tvr is one of its finest assets because it sounds so great pottering through a town or village,,, you just don’t need to drive fast to leave a deep impression.
BV heads, decked block and or heads , 4.0 pistons, you’ll not need much more on a 450 to have a deeply powerful smooth engine. Do some research, bag some old pistons etc, for the cost of any decent FI install you could have a very fast car with a rock solid engine fully rebuilt.
Far too much is said about bhp numbers, it’s one aspect of the cars rather than the only aspect.
Now before I get ripped
I also like FI cars and all tuning aids but only if I wanna win something,,, my 450 is not the most powerful by a long long way but still goes really well and holds its own against cars with 50 hp more,,,, what’s going on there then.
I can do long road trips, I can run to the shops, I use it as a daily ,,,,, when I’m using it !
Just runs sweet as a nut and revs to limiter effortlessly. A few hp less but gets used twice as much..
I’m starting an action group
KEEP OUR TVR PURE and free from modern tech,,,,,, unless it’s an ECU change, decent tyres Suspension, steering etc etc,,,,
Pinch of salt boys but I worry nearly all tuned cars become bit part players and owners loose interest or simply sell them.
I like stories that go something like
17 years ownership and still love it.
Nearly always cars that are near bod standard..... makes you think.
SteveR1979 said:
Nobody can tell me how MOT compatible these turbo cars are, and I don't want to have to take it all off to refit the cat every year.
MoT won't care about a turbo, neither do the DVLA. It isn't listed on the V5.Standard MoT emissions tests will apply, and with no load on the engine emissions should be unchanged from n/a. Obviously discussions around Cats and MoT compliance is completely separate to having a turbo or not. And the answer will be the same for n/a and turbo.
QBee said:
Just be aware that forced induction requires lower compression,
For reference, my 4.6 engine was built planning to turbocharge, from an absolutely standard Range Rover block, pistons, crank and heads, specifically to keep the compression low.
My engine has been turbocharged without going mad. It makes 325 bhp at 2.5 psi boost, and 395 bhp at 7.5 psi.
I still struggle to believe that 395hp figure on only 7.5psiFor reference, my 4.6 engine was built planning to turbocharge, from an absolutely standard Range Rover block, pistons, crank and heads, specifically to keep the compression low.
My engine has been turbocharged without going mad. It makes 325 bhp at 2.5 psi boost, and 395 bhp at 7.5 psi.
Jaguar failed to make such gains on the AJV8 when they added boost. I know it was a supercharger, but they are running more boost on a better engine that made more power to begin with, and they failed to get anywhere close to your gains.............
In fact you seemed to have done twice as good as any of the big auto makers have ever done on that level of boost.
motul1974 said:
My 450 engine was brought upto Dominator spec by V8D which Inc 72mm plen and 45mm trumpets, with an AP clutch for circa £5k. That did Inc a few GEMS mods as Well come to think of it.
I simply saw keeping it NA was the way I wanted to go (or stay) with my upgrades. I also got the confidence of a fully rebuilt engine!
Slightly different question. How did these mods impact emissions MoT time?I simply saw keeping it NA was the way I wanted to go (or stay) with my upgrades. I also got the confidence of a fully rebuilt engine!
Only reason I ask is I've been looking at camming my LS1 (not in a TVR) and there are a lot of scare stories about doing so can make them fail MoT emission. I don't see why an RV8 would be any different if it is being tested to the same MoT emissions standards.
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