PAS or not - you tell me

[victormeldrew]

Jury is out on the benefits, or otherwise, but with two separate threads currently on the first page of "Whats New" related to PAS failures, surely the benefits should be beyond question?

[url]If it's not one thing|http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=198048&f=8&h=0[/url]
[url]Steering rack -|http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=197939&f=8&h=0[/url]

Cost/benefit analysis just doesn't work for me!

[Big Al.]

OH

Parking in town is a breeze!

[victormeldrew]

Not for those two guys at the moment its not.

[kslett]

To be fair, I don't think that this problem of mine is untoward in a 10 year old car. I test drove both PAS and non PAS before buying and felt that both were equally good at speed; if anything the slightly lower lock to lock with PAS was better, and there is always the advantage with parking as mentioned before.

Now running away from the fuse I've just lit...

[Wilko100100]

Mine has PAS, and yes a leaky rack at the moment but one which can be re conditioned for £170. It's 95 car so ten year life span on that + the fact it's done 70k is not bad in my opinion. I test drove both too on at least 6 different cars,4 without and 2 with.

At speed the difference is not noticeable but going round roundabouts at slower speeds, parking etc and slower driving I prefered the PAS by a country mile and in the end I would not buy one without it.

It's a personal choice to be honest, try both and decide yourself. I still think though if I had found the right car with the colour combo I wanted and it was in very good condition and didn't have PAS i would have gone with it anyway but after driving a few that weren't up to the mark I then only looked at ones which did have it.

Sorry if I made it more confusing for you but I really think at the end of the day it's a personal choice, maybe I should've just said that and saved myself all this rambling on this post!!

[Cider Andy]

Mine has power steering and not having driven a similar car without PAS I can't compare them directly. But the last car I had without it was eight cars and thirteen years ago: I wouldn't choose a car without it. Also the last car with which I could make a direct comparison (a 1991 1.8 litre Astra) there was no contest. The PAS car won hands down.

[Ribol]

No down side to PAS IMO.

Steering quicker, easier to park and one reason less for someone not to buy your car when you come to sell it.

[GreenV8S]

Ribol said:

No down side to PAS IMO.

There is one, it reduces steering feedback, which may not be a big deal in gentle driving but might be important if you are a more enthusiastic driver.

[Mad Mitch]

Surely 99% of people buy TVR for 3 main reasons. The sound, the speed and most importantly the driving experience.!! In a world full of cars driven more by electronic trickery than a driver, surely we all agree that it is fantastic that we can still run a car that offers the driving pleasure and one that, on occasions, can be a challenge of a bygone age of motoring. I`d rather come home after a drive knowing that i have had one, totaly satisfying nailing the right corners on the right roads and feeling every little ripple and twitch.. PAS spoils the feel.

[shpub]

PAS spoils the feel.... is this the feel that happens when the car hits the scenary because you can't get the opposite lock on or off quick enough?

Yes it is a personal choice and I have had both. I have tracked many of the cars back to back and the non-PAS cars were really tiring to drive hard compared to the PAS ones. Less effort means quicker responses and a less tired driver which more than makes up for any feeling loss (something I am not totally convinced about anyway).

Interestingly enough many of the Tasmin racers are now retrofitting PAS. Same thing happened with the Tuscans. BTW Cerberas and Tuscans all have PAS. No choice in the matter. So it isn't the retrograde step that many think it is.

Anyway it is personal choice providing you drive a TVR where there is one...

[M@H]

A lot depends on budget really.. if you have a set budget then you'll want the bast overall "car" for the money. Assuming you'll pay a £500 - £1000 premium for power steering, on a fixed budget thats £500 - £1000 that isn't somewhere else in the car (i.e. other bits may well be more tatty for the same money)

At the end of the day it is personal preference, I've driven both and currently have a non PAS car. When I was looking for my current car, the most important things for me (aside from colour) were; good chassis, good engine, reasonable mileage, clean interior, good wishbones THEN whether is had PAS or not.

The odds of finding the "perfect" car that meets all your criteria for a set budget are pretty small.. I think you've just got to decide if its a priority to you or not

Cheers
Matt.

>> Edited by M@H on Thursday 4th August 09:33

[victormeldrew]

kslett said:

To be fair, I don't think that this problem of mine is untoward in a 10 year old car. I test drove both PAS and non PAS before buying and felt that both were equally good at speed; if anything the slightly lower lock to lock with PAS was better, and there is always the advantage with parking as mentioned before. Now running away from the fuse I've just lit...

I agree, its isn't untoward in a 10 year old PAS equipped car, but I think you're all missing the point here! Pump failures and leaks are unheard of in a non PAS car - I wonder why?!

As this post says, and I quote" "... both were equally good at speed; if anything ...". Now that's hardly a huge differential is it? A barely discernable difference? And the downside - which there patently IS, just search the forum - is that the added complication causes failures, maintenence and expense. Witness, as I was highlighting, two out of the first what, twenty posts being PAS failures. That's on top of a supposed premium for buying one with PAS in the first place!

If I were in the market for a car I'd be looking at PAS as a possible negative factor rather than a large positive ... there just is no conclusive and overriding argument for letting yourself in for expense and hassle. There is way too much
"advice" claiming PAS as an essential for your checklist, when it doesn't really warrant being on there, but if it were would rank way below ashtray/no ashtray as a purchasing choice (as that one is never going to cost you money).

Of course the same argument could be used to justify purchase of anything other than a TVR, so maybe I'd better get my coat

Edited to ad: Stop the press! With Power Steering Noise making an appearance that's three out of twenty PAS related posts, not including this one. I rest my case m'lud.


>> Edited by victormeldrew on Thursday 4th August 09:54

[M@H]

Agree with Victor, but to balance the argument slightly, when I was looking for my last chim I reckon 2/3rds of the 8-10 yr olds I saw had worn manual racks. Some were minor, some were awful.

Granted you are very very unlikely to have a non pas rack "fail" and leave you stranded, but they do have their own problems that need considering.

I have a spare non PAS rack in the shed for when mine gives up the ghost.

Cheers
Matt.

>> Edited by M@H on Thursday 4th August 10:00

[harrow_chim]

Why do people get so het up on this subject. Try both and buy the one you want. I did and decided on the PAS variant. Other folks have decided differently - fine - it's a free(ish) country.
Nick
(and my arms don't ache at the end of a trackday)

[Nuggs]

To sum up the debate so far:

Perceived Disadvantages of PAS
Dampens steering feel
More prone to fault/failure
Expensive to fix
Ladyboy image

Perceived Advantages of PAS
Quicker lock gets you out of trouble quicker
Easier to park
More desirable on the used car market
Higer values on the used car market
Less tiring, esp on track days
Goes better with pink spandex one-piece outfits

I'm going to stick my neck out here and suggest that there is no right or wrong answer (good arguments on each side) and that it comes down to personal choice.

Can we please get back to discussing the salient issues of Chimaera ownership such as why silver ones are fastest, whether any 'hottie points' are on offer for 'giving it a johny large potatoes 500 in front of a gaggle of babes' and just how much knicker elastic Trinitycall's WoC has snapped...

Nuggs the ladyboy

>> Edited by Nuggs on Thursday 4th August 10:30

[victormeldrew]

Ah, Perception!

Actual Disadvantages of PAS
Dampens steering feel
More prone to fault/failure
Expensive to fix

Actual Advantages of PAS
Quicker lock gets you out of trouble quicker (but may get you in it to start with)
Easier to park

Slightly different picture, no?

"Higher values on the used car market" - this is the crux of it. WHY? Don't try to answer - there is no reason, other than perception. Which as any Speed 6 owner will tell you is a fickle but powerful thing.

I feel like Canute.


>> Edited by victormeldrew on Thursday 4th August 11:08

[shpub]

Based on my recent scientific survey of Chimp questions, I think you should remove the tyres as they generate more posts than anything and obviously the economics are pretty bad. They don't last and forever need replacing. You would think that in today's market someone would invent a tyre that would last and not wear out so quickly. And the cost is unbelievable. Some people have to fork out £1000 a set. You can't tell me that is justifiable. Take my advice, get rid of them and run on the wheels directly. Better still find some good old cartwheels. They won't wear out.... And while I'm at it... all these shocks and suspension stuff. Fit a set of cart springs and it will last a lifetime...




>> Edited by shpub on Thursday 4th August 11:37

[Nuggs]

victormeldrew said:

Actual Disadvantages of PAS Dampens steering feel

Hmmm... according to the jury on this thread, that may not be entirely accurate. Mine certainly feels very direct with no 'cotton wool' between the wheel and the wheels... When I was test driving, I struggled to tell much difference at road speeds.

victormeldrew said:

I feel like Canute.

Now try saying that after 10 pints...

[victormeldrew]

[quote=shpub]Based on my recent scientific survey of Chimp questions, I think you should remove the tyres as they generate more posts than anything and obviously the economics are pretty bad. They don't last and forever need replacing. You would think that in today's market someone would invent a tyre that would last and not wear out so quickly. And the cost is unbelievable. Some people have to fork out £1000 a set. You can't tell me that is justifiable. Take my advice, get rid of them and run on the wheels directly. Better still find some good old cartwheels. They won't wear out.... And while I'm at it... all these shocks and suspension stuff. Fit a set of cart springs and it will last a lifetime...



quote] Walked into that one! Same could be said of the fans of course - rip 'em out, tear off the bonnet, what's wrong with aircooled engines anyway!

Comparing like with like though, how many threads refer to broken non-PAS racks?

[victormeldrew]

nuggs said:

When I was test driving, I struggled to tell much difference at road speeds.

Thanks, another vote for PAS being at best pointless then!