Engine mount failure
Discussion
My Chim just expired in clouds of vile smelling steam. It has punched a hole in the swirl pot neck, and lost all cooolant. Fortunately I was only 2 minutes from home.
I should have know there was a problem. The car has been playing up with an occasional misfire and some nasty driveline shunting. Then my oil gauge failed, but did so in a strange gradual fashion - the needled dropped as I accelerated, came bak up when I eased off. (I fitted an extra gauge, with the temp pickup in the sump plug, for those wondering). And for a couple of weeks there has been something juyst not quite right under acceleration, something just holding back. Not to mention the excessive movement of the gear level under acceleration - I noticed it, but just thought "I never noticed that before". Doh!
So, the top pulley has been munching away at the swirl pot as the engine has been rocking on its mounts. No doubt the lead to the sump plug oil temp sender has been disconnected by the same engine rocking.
Engine mounts gone, for sure. The top pulley is minus a lip now, and probably needs replacing. The belt is a little worn along the edge, and will be replaced if the pulley is. Plus a new swirl tank.
The car doesn't do many miles, and I guess thats part of the problem. The mounts have just aged and perished.
I should have know there was a problem. The car has been playing up with an occasional misfire and some nasty driveline shunting. Then my oil gauge failed, but did so in a strange gradual fashion - the needled dropped as I accelerated, came bak up when I eased off. (I fitted an extra gauge, with the temp pickup in the sump plug, for those wondering). And for a couple of weeks there has been something juyst not quite right under acceleration, something just holding back. Not to mention the excessive movement of the gear level under acceleration - I noticed it, but just thought "I never noticed that before". Doh!
So, the top pulley has been munching away at the swirl pot as the engine has been rocking on its mounts. No doubt the lead to the sump plug oil temp sender has been disconnected by the same engine rocking.
Engine mounts gone, for sure. The top pulley is minus a lip now, and probably needs replacing. The belt is a little worn along the edge, and will be replaced if the pulley is. Plus a new swirl tank.
The car doesn't do many miles, and I guess thats part of the problem. The mounts have just aged and perished.
Just caught mine before they caused any damage, just through inspecting really. The drivers side was generally ok but the passenger side was split down both sides top to bottom. I dont think thetop being so close to the manifold helps and there are some pics in The Griff forum showing some that have heat shiled on.
Heres my old one which I guess is the original as I have no reciepts of it being changed before. So 9 years old
Heres my old one which I guess is the original as I have no reciepts of it being changed before. So 9 years old
I guess those horses will look for the easiest way out! If its easier to twist the engine around the propshaft than turn the driven wheels then thats what they'll do. If both mounts have perished (I haven't had mine over the pit to check yet, but I suspect they have) then there's only stuff like the exhaust, and the swirl tank, stopping the engine from spinnning like a top.
Anyone with an older car would be well advised to make sure their mounts are inspected at every service; it may be wise to replace them as a routine every 5/6 years. Its only a 2/3 hour job, allegedly.
One last thought. If you check my profile, you'll notice a recent thread of mine was about my throttles jamming wide open, which could easily have had fatal consequences.
Is it possible that the throttles jammed because of the excessive movement of the engine? I wouldn't bet money against it.
Pics of the damage to the swirl pot and pulley:
Apologies for the lack of focus. I haven't had time to work out how the macro features of my camera work, I'm sure its a clever bit of techno, but I'm techno'd out with other stuff and this just has to be a point and click thing for now!
>> Edited by victormeldrew on Saturday 22 October 10:42
Anyone with an older car would be well advised to make sure their mounts are inspected at every service; it may be wise to replace them as a routine every 5/6 years. Its only a 2/3 hour job, allegedly.
One last thought. If you check my profile, you'll notice a recent thread of mine was about my throttles jamming wide open, which could easily have had fatal consequences.
Is it possible that the throttles jammed because of the excessive movement of the engine? I wouldn't bet money against it.
Pics of the damage to the swirl pot and pulley:
Apologies for the lack of focus. I haven't had time to work out how the macro features of my camera work, I'm sure its a clever bit of techno, but I'm techno'd out with other stuff and this just has to be a point and click thing for now!
>> Edited by victormeldrew on Saturday 22 October 10:42
Mine have gone as well, the chassis is holding my engine up.
Back at Ian's later on this afternoon for the shocks to be fitted and a new engine mounting (I think... though with Ian god knows what else he will find), I did try and get away from there last night without him fiddling but didn't manage it
Ian, Get the coffee and heating on.
Claire
Back at Ian's later on this afternoon for the shocks to be fitted and a new engine mounting (I think... though with Ian god knows what else he will find), I did try and get away from there last night without him fiddling but didn't manage it
Ian, Get the coffee and heating on.
Claire
Ian sounds like one of the few peeps doing proper thorough inspections at service time .. the engine mounts are a well known failure item and should be checked at every service anyway (compensation time from your service agent maybe in that case?).. 
to Ian though, great fella 
.. if he's finding stuff to do Claire it's only 'cos he's looking after you well ..
to Ian though, great fella .. if he's finding stuff to do Claire it's only 'cos he's looking after you well .. trackcar said:
Ian sounds like one of the few peeps doing proper thorough inspections at service time .. the engine mounts are a well known failure item and should be checked at every service anyway (compensation time from your service agent maybe in that case?)..
I know and I am really happy I have found Ian. Not only is he a great mechanic, he is a brilliant bloke all round. Plus when the others turn up, it just becomes like a pub, but without the alcohol..
great way to spend an evening (apart from the cold). Ian did get the engine mount done, albeit about 4 hours late
but I dont care, saved me going out in Manc and spending money. Will be down there again sometime next week, I reckon Ian and the rest of them will get sick of seeing me and Miss Daisy soon.
Claire
trackcar said:I've got the Chim over the pit at the moment. The mounts look to be in perfect condition, no visible signs of deterioration. No cracking, no visible ageing - certainly nothing I'd expect to have been cause for concern at the last service. Looks like perfectly healthy squishy black rubber if you poke them with a screwdriver. I'm a bit puzzled.
Ian sounds like one of the few peeps doing proper thorough inspections at service time .. the engine mounts are a well known failure item and should be checked at every service anyway (compensation time from your service agent maybe in that case?)..
There does look to be a gap of a couple of mm between the rubber and the metal on the one above the exhaust, just at the top of the mounting, but no signs of tearing or splitting (though its difficult to see that one clearly without dropping the exhaust).
There MUST be a problem with the mounts, at least on the passenger side, for the engine to be moving so much. It's beginning to look like the mounting has just come apart cleanly, the rubber separating from the metal. Has anyone heard of this happening? Is it even possible?
If I get a bit of time later today I'll post some pics of the mounts in situ.
I have swapped out the passenger side mount. It was sheared completely in two, and looks to me like its been that way for some time, and has melted somewhat. I'll post pics when I find my camera! Apart from being in two pieces, the rubber looks in good condition - no surface cracking or deterioration visible. The rubber looks as smooth as the new one I've replaced it with.
The driver side mount is in perfect nick as far as I can see. It has been operating as a hinge in fact. I am planning to leave that one, so I have a spare for the one that melts!
I am going to get hold of some heat shield to protect the mounting. It is sandwiched between the manifold and main exhaust, and must get very hot.
The driver side mount is in perfect nick as far as I can see. It has been operating as a hinge in fact. I am planning to leave that one, so I have a spare for the one that melts!
I am going to get hold of some heat shield to protect the mounting. It is sandwiched between the manifold and main exhaust, and must get very hot.
dlewis said:
Can you summarise the procedure.. access, exhausts, jacking etc?
'kin hard would be my description !!
Had to replace one of mine a couple of months ago, (drivers side). Accessed it through the wheel arch and un-bolted the engine mounting bracket from the engine and removed the mounting from the bracket on the work bench.
Made some inquires into uprated mounts, apparently there aren't any available and according to a guy at RPI, the main cause of engine mounting failure is an unbalanced engine. Also, you cannot get OE SD1 engine mountings anymore (they have the bulges at the ends), they are all pattern parts of dubious quality, well unless you can find someone who still has some on the shelf.
wixer said:Seconded. The one I fitted didn't have the bulges.
Can you summarise the procedure.. access, exhausts, jacking etc?
'kin hard would be my description !!
Had to replace one of mine a couple of months ago, (drivers side). Accessed it through the wheel arch and un-bolted the engine mounting bracket from the engine and removed the mounting from the bracket on the work bench.
Made some inquires into uprated mounts, apparently there aren't any available and according to a guy at RPI, the main cause of engine mounting failure is an unbalanced engine. Also, you cannot get OE SD1 engine mountings anymore (they have the bulges at the ends), they are all pattern parts of dubious quality, well unless you can find someone who still has some on the shelf.
I went in through the wheel arch. I used a big block of wood under the sump the jack the engine up, with the car safely on axle stands. First I unbolted the two 4" bolts clamping the engine mount to the chassis. To get these out I had to take the weight off the mounts by jacking the engine up until the bolts slipped out. As I removed the second bolt half of the destroyed engine mount fell out.
Rather than struggle with the two nylok nuts at the back of the other part of the mount, which face towards the engine, I decided to remove the whole bracket. Two bolts at the bottom, the second of which is pretty difficult to get at unless you have a couple of extension bars and a "wobble joint". Then there is a 13mm bolt at the top, and if you jack the engine just right you will get a 1/4 inch socket through between the chassis and manifold to get this out. You can then manoeuvre the bracket with the remains of the engine mount out. You should get this far inside an our, unless like me you don't have a "wobble joint" and have to break off for a Halfords visit.
Once out the nylok nuts come off easy, and now is a good time to clean up the bracket and paint it up. I didn't have and POR15 handy, so smooth Hammerite had to do, over some rust converter. There wasn't a lot of rust on there anyway, but it was flaking at the edges a bit. I also added an extra coat of Hammerite to the new mounts, as the black finish on there was rice paper thin.
Next day (having left the lot to dry overnight) assembly is the reverse procedure (
). I bolted the mount to the bracket (with new nyloks) and maneouvred it back into place. I put the two lower bolts in first, finger tight (and copaslipped of course). Then I jacked the engine back up to line up the bolts through the chassis and into the mount - straight in, clean as a whistle, once the engine was jacked to the right position. Last was the little bolt at the top, which wasn't at all lined up until the engine was jacked a bit further. A bit tricky to get in without dropping it, as you have to thread it between chassis and manifold again, and there isn't much room, but it went after a couple of attempts. Then I tightened everything up and put the wheel back on.
If you are not bothered about cleaning up and painting the bracket, I reckon anyone half competant should be able to replace the one side in about an hour and a half. Nothing was seized, but access is (as ever) a bit awkward. I guess access would be improved considerably if you dropped the exhaust, but having spent an enjoyable hour trying to mate exhaust to downpipe before in the past I wasn't keen on that approach. There is enough room going in through the wheelarch.
If you didn't want to remove the bracket, the two nylocks on the back of the mount are fairly accessible, just not a lot of room to get leverage to undo them if they are tight. You will get a fairly flat ring spanner onto them OK, 17mm.
I did have a pretty bad misfire shortly before the mount collapsed, maybe that was the straw that broke the camels back. Misfire as in total ignition loss then bang back into life - water getting somewhere it shouldn't in streamimg rain. It fekt pretty much like the engine getting ripped out, and I guess it was. It does look like its melted though. Now where is that bloody camera ...
Here's some pics of the failed mounting:
and here are the tools I used for the job (except for the spark plug socket, which I used to, er, remove the spark plugs).
Apologies for the poor quality, I just can't seem to get a decent picture out of this camera. I long for something with a focus ring that you can actually control the image with. Why digital cameras persist with digital controls is beyond me.
>> Edited by victormeldrew on Sunday 13th November 22:53
and here are the tools I used for the job (except for the spark plug socket, which I used to, er, remove the spark plugs).
Apologies for the poor quality, I just can't seem to get a decent picture out of this camera. I long for something with a focus ring that you can actually control the image with. Why digital cameras persist with digital controls is beyond me.
>> Edited by victormeldrew on Sunday 13th November 22:53
Seasider said:Nope, its just there were a couple of spots of the creeping orange on there, so while the opportunity presented itself ...
Done mine and a mates without removing the engine bracket.
Can't remember looking at it and thinking it would be easier sans bracket...
Having said that, it may be easier to get the bolts lined up with the bracket at least loosened; I had no problems at all with alignment, but I know some have found it a biatch to get the two long chassis/mount bolts back in.
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