Chimaera running LPG?
Discussion
Hi all,
I'm in the process of getting my "sensible" car (4 litre V6 Ford Explorer) converted to LPG - from the research I've done this seems like a good financial move on such a large and thirsty vehicle. Course this got me wondering how my Chim would take to running on Gas.
If the Detroit lump takes to it well and availability turns out OK in my area then I may well consider converting the V8 - the Rover engine has been converted thousands of times in Range Rovers and with an octane rating of 110 (with I presume some timing advances) then LPG could be the TVR sporting fuel of the future! I've even found a Rover V8 specialist who knows about LPG (on the off roaders)but also specialises in tuning Rover V8's in cars like TVR's - I think it could be a goer, only real downside I can see is loss of boot space and therefore trouble getting the roof in when it's "lid off" weather. 38p/litre for a pokey fuel (assuming it could be tweaked and still run as a dual fuel car) is appealing to me.
Anyone ever thought of this or got any views on potential problems?
- Andy.
I'm in the process of getting my "sensible" car (4 litre V6 Ford Explorer) converted to LPG - from the research I've done this seems like a good financial move on such a large and thirsty vehicle. Course this got me wondering how my Chim would take to running on Gas.
If the Detroit lump takes to it well and availability turns out OK in my area then I may well consider converting the V8 - the Rover engine has been converted thousands of times in Range Rovers and with an octane rating of 110 (with I presume some timing advances) then LPG could be the TVR sporting fuel of the future! I've even found a Rover V8 specialist who knows about LPG (on the off roaders)but also specialises in tuning Rover V8's in cars like TVR's - I think it could be a goer, only real downside I can see is loss of boot space and therefore trouble getting the roof in when it's "lid off" weather. 38p/litre for a pokey fuel (assuming it could be tweaked and still run as a dual fuel car) is appealing to me.
Anyone ever thought of this or got any views on potential problems?
- Andy.
Mate of mine converted his 4 litre Disco and thinks it's great.
I guess, as you said, the only downside is loss off boot space. Might make it a little harder to kick the rear out too as you will have a fairly heavy pressure vessel behind the rear wheels.
Might mean that once the rear is out it will have more momentum and a bit of a pendulum effect could come into play like in the early 911's??
Do it and let us know!
Rog
I guess, as you said, the only downside is loss off boot space. Might make it a little harder to kick the rear out too as you will have a fairly heavy pressure vessel behind the rear wheels.
Might mean that once the rear is out it will have more momentum and a bit of a pendulum effect could come into play like in the early 911's??
Do it and let us know!
Rog
Whilst I can see that it makes financial sense this really does not seem to be entering into the spirit of the game.
I cannot see you ever getting the roof in the boot, fair enough, you drive with the roof on in summer. The other thing is I bet you a penny to a pound that whilst it may work ok with a standard Rover V8 in a low state of tune it will not be so clever with the TVR spec. No problem, you just down the state of tune and lose the power.
I hope you remove the TVR badges out of respect for the marque.
Ivan
I cannot see you ever getting the roof in the boot, fair enough, you drive with the roof on in summer. The other thing is I bet you a penny to a pound that whilst it may work ok with a standard Rover V8 in a low state of tune it will not be so clever with the TVR spec. No problem, you just down the state of tune and lose the power.
I hope you remove the TVR badges out of respect for the marque.
Ivan
My concern with LPG is how long will the government continue with the tax breaks attached to LPG??? Sure at the moment while there are only a small %age of cars using it they are happy to appear to be doing their bit for the environment, but you can guarantee that as soon as it becomes more popular the tax will go up and the 'boot space' issue and having a nasty hole drilled in the side of the car will not be offset by the benefits.
Just my synical opinion.
Cheers Dan
Just my synical opinion.
Cheers Dan
I subscribe to the cynical view.
I've been looking into it for another car and it seems that the tax level on LPG was frozen until 2004 I think (don't remember any particular date during tho') and I'm told LPG is actually more expensive that petrol before tax, so a reversion to standard tax levels once enough people have commited could leave you paying more. Something similar happened with tax reductions at the launch of unleaded (different situaltion as you had no choice in the end).
Incidentally with L/Rovers you can remove the petrol tank and fit LPG in the same space, but you still require a small tank of petrol for starting and in VERY cold weather (LPG may not vapourize properly and you'd need to run on petrol).
Some instalers claim better performance from LPG citing higher octane values, most people say there's a loss of performance. Can't really commet on that, the only LPG I've driven was an old 3 speed auto 3.5 Range Rover, but that was bloody slow!
Cheers,
Andy
I've been looking into it for another car and it seems that the tax level on LPG was frozen until 2004 I think (don't remember any particular date during tho') and I'm told LPG is actually more expensive that petrol before tax, so a reversion to standard tax levels once enough people have commited could leave you paying more. Something similar happened with tax reductions at the launch of unleaded (different situaltion as you had no choice in the end).
Incidentally with L/Rovers you can remove the petrol tank and fit LPG in the same space, but you still require a small tank of petrol for starting and in VERY cold weather (LPG may not vapourize properly and you'd need to run on petrol).
Some instalers claim better performance from LPG citing higher octane values, most people say there's a loss of performance. Can't really commet on that, the only LPG I've driven was an old 3 speed auto 3.5 Range Rover, but that was bloody slow!
Cheers,
Andy
Hi again,
Come on Ribol, who says high performance sports cars have to guzzle loads of fuel in order for them to be in the spirit of the game. I kind of see where you're coming from but read-on....
I agree with Dan on the government issue, but I can't see them bringing up tax to the same level as petrol in one hit, more likely over a period of years so there is still time to do it - but appreciate what you say from a long term point of view. Of course whilst people are worried by this (witness the same with diesel 5 years ago)this will keep take-up low and therefore the tax won't go on, the government have said it will only riase the duty when take-up warrants. Even for this government it would be bizarre for them on the one hand give you a grant to convert the car, waive congestion charges for you and reduce the annual road fund fee if they then make the fuel itself expensive. Either they want us to use it or not! Still we will see and let's face it this tory government has welched on us in the past - ask any IT contractor!
Come on Ribol, who says high performance sports cars have to guzzle loads of fuel in order for them to be in the spirit of the game. I kind of see where you're coming from but read-on....
I agree with Dan on the government issue, but I can't see them bringing up tax to the same level as petrol in one hit, more likely over a period of years so there is still time to do it - but appreciate what you say from a long term point of view. Of course whilst people are worried by this (witness the same with diesel 5 years ago)this will keep take-up low and therefore the tax won't go on, the government have said it will only riase the duty when take-up warrants. Even for this government it would be bizarre for them on the one hand give you a grant to convert the car, waive congestion charges for you and reduce the annual road fund fee if they then make the fuel itself expensive. Either they want us to use it or not! Still we will see and let's face it this tory government has welched on us in the past - ask any IT contractor!
Continued......
As for the power issue. The dual fuel converters say that with modern conversions you are looking at a 2-4% power loss with dual fuel. This is because the car is tuned in a compromise fashion to run on both petrol and LPG. If the car is set up for single LPG only then it could be optimised for the 110 octane levels available from LPG and hence more power - is this in the spirit Ribol?! Mind you the availability of LPG fuel stops comes into play then.
Anyway, I'll see how my SUV goes on gas first and then maybe revisit. Can't help to think it's an interesting concept.
Thanks for your views....
- Andy.
As for the power issue. The dual fuel converters say that with modern conversions you are looking at a 2-4% power loss with dual fuel. This is because the car is tuned in a compromise fashion to run on both petrol and LPG. If the car is set up for single LPG only then it could be optimised for the 110 octane levels available from LPG and hence more power - is this in the spirit Ribol?! Mind you the availability of LPG fuel stops comes into play then.
Anyway, I'll see how my SUV goes on gas first and then maybe revisit. Can't help to think it's an interesting concept.
Thanks for your views....
- Andy.
I'm with Ribol here. You seem to have missed the point of his argument. I think it's along the lines of why buy a TVR if you want something that runs on LPG. I can follow the cost thingy and even perhaps the octane argument. But there are certain things you just don't do to a TVR - it's up there with MAX Power stickers and those dayglo 'paint' splodge stickers. I expect you'll be asking if there's acompany that makes towbars for them next so you can tow your caravan.
so why are guys looking down on this idea?
'remove the tvr badges'? hope you're joking.
presumably your cars are tucked up in the garage during the week.
couldn't get the roof in the boot? well hell - why are you driving a sports car with a boot? 'proper' sports cars don't have boot space do they?
this line of argument is b*ll*cks. sorry.
i for one would not be against reducing my gas expenditure by 50%
if you can fit the tank on the nearside, ( assuming the spare is on the offside - i know later chims had the wheel in the middle ), i don't see why it wouldn't fit. why would you have to put a hole in the side of the car? - there isn't one for the petrol filler and i don't see why this couldn't be fitted to the top of the tank itself.
ok, i know jack about converting a car to LPG, but it certainly seems worth investigating given the cost of super-ul.
i wish you the best of luck Andy - you do what you like with YOUR car and to hell with these luddites.
i'll be interested to hear how you get on.
'remove the tvr badges'? hope you're joking.
presumably your cars are tucked up in the garage during the week.
couldn't get the roof in the boot? well hell - why are you driving a sports car with a boot? 'proper' sports cars don't have boot space do they?
this line of argument is b*ll*cks. sorry.
i for one would not be against reducing my gas expenditure by 50%
if you can fit the tank on the nearside, ( assuming the spare is on the offside - i know later chims had the wheel in the middle ), i don't see why it wouldn't fit. why would you have to put a hole in the side of the car? - there isn't one for the petrol filler and i don't see why this couldn't be fitted to the top of the tank itself.
ok, i know jack about converting a car to LPG, but it certainly seems worth investigating given the cost of super-ul.
i wish you the best of luck Andy - you do what you like with YOUR car and to hell with these luddites.
i'll be interested to hear how you get on.
WRONG! Chimburt. Mt Tiv is sitting outside on the drive right now with dirt all over it. I use it everyday and until recently it lived outside with no protection at all. I am not a luddite, I believe the car should be loved cherished and DRIVEN!
Get a grip man, no self respecting TVR driver would fit LPG.
I do like stirring up a bit of controversy
Get a grip man, no self respecting TVR driver would fit LPG.
I do like stirring up a bit of controversy
Chimburt,
Just for the record I am not for giving money to the tax man, you’ll have to trust me on that one. Forgetting the money side of things for a minute, I think the whole installation would make a mess of the car. If you put a tank on either side (have you ever seen one of these things?) you would NOT get the roof in. The reason I am driving a sportscar with a boot is that is I drive somewhere in crap weather and it brightens up I have the option of having the roof off on the way home.
I will concede the point that it is a better option than diesel though. As a final point, I wonder what it would do to the resale value, I for one wouldn’t buy it.
Ivan
Just for the record I am not for giving money to the tax man, you’ll have to trust me on that one. Forgetting the money side of things for a minute, I think the whole installation would make a mess of the car. If you put a tank on either side (have you ever seen one of these things?) you would NOT get the roof in. The reason I am driving a sportscar with a boot is that is I drive somewhere in crap weather and it brightens up I have the option of having the roof off on the way home.
I will concede the point that it is a better option than diesel though. As a final point, I wonder what it would do to the resale value, I for one wouldn’t buy it.
Ivan
I totally agree with you yiw1393, I have obviously missed the point of yours and Ribol's arguments. The LPG single fuel conversion I am mooting offers to enhance the power of the car - ie offer more power than a similar Tiv running on Petrol, I can't equate with how that's up there with the Max Power boys (I really hope you don't have a sports exhaust on your car???) and fail to see what caravans have to do with anything. Strikes me you are being very narrow minded here, there may be something out there that offers half price mileage with better performance (not to mention reduced engine wear, lesser emissions and no congestion charging). In the 1940's the British government had a similar view saying "an aeroplane, without a propeller!" to Frank Whittle.....
Me thinks this sort of TVR would sell extremely well on the second hand market, I for one would buy one!
Anyway, it's just an idea, I'm sorry you two seem so wound up about it and am surprised at your reactions. I'm not stopping you carrying on filling up with expensive 97 Octane Optimax, it's just I fancy the 35p/litre 110 Ron high performance stuff.
Everyone to their own, look out for me in Sprint if I do....
- A.
Me thinks this sort of TVR would sell extremely well on the second hand market, I for one would buy one!
Anyway, it's just an idea, I'm sorry you two seem so wound up about it and am surprised at your reactions. I'm not stopping you carrying on filling up with expensive 97 Octane Optimax, it's just I fancy the 35p/litre 110 Ron high performance stuff.
Everyone to their own, look out for me in Sprint if I do....
- A.
yiw1393 said: I'm with Ribol here. You seem to have missed the point of his argument. I think it's along the lines of why buy a TVR if you want something that runs on LPG. I can follow the cost thingy and even perhaps the octane argument. But there are certain things you just don't do to a TVR - it's up there with MAX Power stickers and those dayglo 'paint' splodge stickers. I expect you'll be asking if there's acompany that makes towbars for them next so you can tow your caravan.
Funny you should say that, I was overtaken in the range rover not so long ago by a cerbera, You might think thats normal a range rover being overtaken by a cerbera, but this one was TOWING A BLOODY CARAVAN!!!!!, To say I was slighty surprised was an understatement!!!!!
I don't normally venture into the Chimaera forum but I'm just going to add my 2p's worth.
I think the idea of fitting LPG to a TVR is a great one, especially if you can use the octane improvement to gain more power.
The only question I have is why?
What I mean is the cost of conversion is likely to be huge. The government probably won't give you a grant cos its a sports car so you'll be left footing the bill.
Even with a TVR's fuel consumption won't it take you years to make a saving?
As much as I dislike paying tax on fuel (see my replies about bio deisel cars in other threads) the way I see it is that the government has petrol consumers over a barrel and can do what they want.
Which sucks.
Andy
I think the idea of fitting LPG to a TVR is a great one, especially if you can use the octane improvement to gain more power.
The only question I have is why?
What I mean is the cost of conversion is likely to be huge. The government probably won't give you a grant cos its a sports car so you'll be left footing the bill.
Even with a TVR's fuel consumption won't it take you years to make a saving?
As much as I dislike paying tax on fuel (see my replies about bio deisel cars in other threads) the way I see it is that the government has petrol consumers over a barrel and can do what they want.
Which sucks.
Andy
Hi Andy,
Depends on the mileage you do - on the Explorer I'm converting I reckon at 15000 miles per year the conversion will have paid for itself in a year. It's costing me £2.5K for that particular 4 litre V6, it'll be more on a V8 (and no, the government didn't give me a grant on the Explorer either!). So, if you do the miles, it could pay quite quickly....which is just as well because I bet you in 5 years time the duty on LPG will be much higher than today.
- Andy.
Depends on the mileage you do - on the Explorer I'm converting I reckon at 15000 miles per year the conversion will have paid for itself in a year. It's costing me £2.5K for that particular 4 litre V6, it'll be more on a V8 (and no, the government didn't give me a grant on the Explorer either!). So, if you do the miles, it could pay quite quickly....which is just as well because I bet you in 5 years time the duty on LPG will be much higher than today.
- Andy.
I think what everyone is saying is that an LPG TVR would be pretty naff.A power increase would be marginal, if any .Also have you thought about what your insurance company is going to say, when you tell them you are going to put a tank of highly flammable gas in the back of a fibre glass sports car. Additionally when it comes to reselling the car the resale value will suffer as people are going to see it as an oddball.
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