Another with starting gremlins... not turning over
Discussion
Have fuel pump priming ok, but not a whiff of a crank from the starter on the key. Have pulled all the fuses and reseated, and also the relays including all the flying lead ones. Have checked the fuse link behind the battery box but haven't looked at the one on the chassis yet... can't hear the starter solenoid firing and seems like current is not being drawn on the key. Remember seeing something about a mult-connector on the ignition wiring somewhere... any ideas where this is hidden?
Cheers
Cheers
Hi Pupp,
could be a few things.
Dont know how good your electrical skills are or what gear you have to test the circuits.
Check the starter is Ok by taking a wire straight from the battery +ve and touching it on the small spade connector
on the starter motor (with normal connector removed)and the engine should turn over. (car in neutral of course)
If not the starter motor is faulty.
If it does turn over then the fault is in the circuit which supplies the starter motor solonoid.
This could be the ignition switch itself.
Try connecting a bulb (12 volt side light bulb would be ideal) between the chassis of the car and the starter motor solonoid feed. (the wire you removed in the previous test) Then get someone to turn the key as if to start the car and see if the bulb lights.
If it doesn't then you need to track down where the feed is being lost to the starter motor.
Check at the ignition switch to see if you have power at the input to the switch.
Then see if the power is going out to the starter when the key is turned to the start position.
Just a steady process of elimination and you'll find the fault.
Hope this is of some help.
Cheers Paul.
could be a few things.
Dont know how good your electrical skills are or what gear you have to test the circuits.
Check the starter is Ok by taking a wire straight from the battery +ve and touching it on the small spade connector
on the starter motor (with normal connector removed)and the engine should turn over. (car in neutral of course)
If not the starter motor is faulty.
If it does turn over then the fault is in the circuit which supplies the starter motor solonoid.
This could be the ignition switch itself.
Try connecting a bulb (12 volt side light bulb would be ideal) between the chassis of the car and the starter motor solonoid feed. (the wire you removed in the previous test) Then get someone to turn the key as if to start the car and see if the bulb lights.
If it doesn't then you need to track down where the feed is being lost to the starter motor.
Check at the ignition switch to see if you have power at the input to the switch.
Then see if the power is going out to the starter when the key is turned to the start position.
Just a steady process of elimination and you'll find the fault.
Hope this is of some help.
Cheers Paul.
Cheers Paul, that's useful... I'm pretty sure it's not a 'starter' issue as such but more likely to be wiring upstream of the motor. Anyone know if the immobiliser isolates ignition as well as fuel pump... would I be safe to assume that if the pump is priming then the immobiliser is innocent? Guess sticking a meter around the ignition switch should tell me...
pupp said:
...I'm pretty sure it's not a 'starter' issue...
What makes you sure? From your description a faulty starter motor is the first thing I'd suspect.
pupp said:
...Anyone know if the immobiliser isolates ignition as well as fuel pump... would I be safe to assume that if the pump is priming then the immobiliser is innocent?
The immobiliser also isolates the low current side of the starter circuit (the supply from the ignition switch. As the immobiliser isolates these two circuits separately, it's not safe to assume it is working properly.
Cider Andy said:
pupp said:
...I'm pretty sure it's not a 'starter' issue...
What makes you sure? From your description a faulty starter motor is the first thing I'd suspect.
pupp said:
...Anyone know if the immobiliser isolates ignition as well as fuel pump... would I be safe to assume that if the pump is priming then the immobiliser is innocent?
The immobiliser also isolates the low current side of the starter circuit (the supply from the ignition switch. As the immobiliser isolates these two circuits separately, it's not safe to assume it is working properly.
If the starter or the solenoid were playing up, I'd expect some sign of current being drawn... no clicks, headlights stay bright etc? I guess if the solenoid is totally kaput then it might not draw anything? Thanks for the info on the immobiliser
Gary, sorry to hear you're having one of those irritating head scrathers of a problem that we all detest.
It sounds like your electrical ability is equal to, or greater than, mine but if you want some morale support or a second head to do some sctaching with you then give me a call.
Either PM me or Skinner has my mobile (Mobile number is a better bet as don't know for definite when I'll get to the PC again)
Alan
It sounds like your electrical ability is equal to, or greater than, mine but if you want some morale support or a second head to do some sctaching with you then give me a call.
Either PM me or Skinner has my mobile (Mobile number is a better bet as don't know for definite when I'll get to the PC again)
Alan
Edited by tyre_tread on Saturday 8th July 12:00
tyre_tread said:
Gary, sorry to hear you're having one of those irritating head scrathers of a problem that we all detest.
It sounds like your electrical ability is equal to, or greater than, mine but if you want some morale support or a second head to do some sctaching with you then give me a call.
Either PM me or Skinner has my mobile (Mobile number is a better bet as don't know for definite when I'll get to the PC again)
Alan
It sounds like your electrical ability is equal to, or greater than, mine but if you want some morale support or a second head to do some sctaching with you then give me a call.
Either PM me or Skinner has my mobile (Mobile number is a better bet as don't know for definite when I'll get to the PC again)
Alan
Edited by tyre_tread on Saturday 8th July 12:00
Cheers Alan... you may yet regret that offer if I run out of Anglo Saxon vocab and need prompting!
Ok... update.
The chassis mount fuse link is intact and current is getting to the starter ok. If I bridge the battery lead to the solenoid +ve the starter fires so starter and solenoid seem fine, as does their earthing.
Now, the curious bit.... if I connect up a digital multimeter to measure voltage to the solenoid +ve lead termination, I get a measured 12 volts on turn of the key with pump primed (ie immobiliser off). If I do the same measurement with an analogue meter I get the barest hint of a needle deflection (even on the instrument's most sensitive range setting)but nothing like a measured 12v. I'm concluding that there is insufficient current being delivered to fire the solenoid although the background voltage is getting through... might this indicate a resistance in a connector somewhere or is it more typical of a component failure (in the immobiliser maybe)? DAsh out tomorrow
The chassis mount fuse link is intact and current is getting to the starter ok. If I bridge the battery lead to the solenoid +ve the starter fires so starter and solenoid seem fine, as does their earthing.
Now, the curious bit.... if I connect up a digital multimeter to measure voltage to the solenoid +ve lead termination, I get a measured 12 volts on turn of the key with pump primed (ie immobiliser off). If I do the same measurement with an analogue meter I get the barest hint of a needle deflection (even on the instrument's most sensitive range setting)but nothing like a measured 12v. I'm concluding that there is insufficient current being delivered to fire the solenoid although the background voltage is getting through... might this indicate a resistance in a connector somewhere or is it more typical of a component failure (in the immobiliser maybe)? DAsh out tomorrow
I don't have experience of it myself, but from reading earlier threads on here I understand there's a plastic connector for the ignition switch wires (I think it's near the steering column) that's notorious for bad connections. The results from your meter tests appear to point to a high resistance somewhere, so you're probably right. Keep the immobiliser in mind though, it could still be that.
I don't know whether this will help, but I had a similar problem in France after a bit of a blat down the new road past Le mans. Pulled into services, filled up, had a coffee. Fuel pump primed but no turn over, transpired that one of the wires on the starter motor had come off, one's bolted on the other ain't! The one that ain't fell orf! 18 clebs later all's well.
Cider Andy said:
I don't have experience of it myself, but from reading earlier threads on here I understand there's a plastic connector for the ignition switch wires (I think it's near the steering column) that's notorious for bad connections. The results from your meter tests appear to point to a high resistance somewhere, so you're probably right. Keep the immobiliser in mind though, it could still be that.
Thanks for that... done some more digging on here and the overwhelming weight of anecdotes appears to idicate immobiliser and related wiring deficiencies as the culprit. If anyone wants to share by pm/email the 'method' for isolating the immobiliser, that would be appreciated.
Smuggling Sam said:
I don't know whether this will help, but I had a similar problem in France after a bit of a blat down the new road past Le mans. Pulled into services, filled up, had a coffee. Fuel pump primed but no turn over, transpired that one of the wires on the starter motor had come off, one's bolted on the other ain't! The one that ain't fell orf! 18 clebs later all's well.
Cheers Sam... have checked and all secure. Is an obvious candidate though
Right, really not amused now... when I left the car yesterday evening and resorted to beer, it was dead. Nothing, zilch, niet, nada. Went out this morning and turned the key, it starts (and restarts, and restarts etc...). WTF?
Is this an electrical joke that non-electrical folk just don't get?
Is this an electrical joke that non-electrical folk just don't get?
The fact that you get different results with the digital and analogue meter suggests that you have a high resistance in the supply. I assume you were measuring the voltage at the solenoid end of the wiring, while the wire was disconnected.
The next step is to measure the voltage at the ignition switch end of the solenoid wire and see if you get a good solid 12v there. If so, the voltage is being lost somewhere along that wire, which indicates wiring fault or an alarm problem.
Just as a sanity check, are you sure the analogue meter actually works and that you were getting a good contact on the probes? I'm reluctant to trust 'zero' readings, I prefer to double check them by measuring the same thing another way e.g. measure to 12v instead of to earth
The next step is to measure the voltage at the ignition switch end of the solenoid wire and see if you get a good solid 12v there. If so, the voltage is being lost somewhere along that wire, which indicates wiring fault or an alarm problem.
Just as a sanity check, are you sure the analogue meter actually works and that you were getting a good contact on the probes? I'm reluctant to trust 'zero' readings, I prefer to double check them by measuring the same thing another way e.g. measure to 12v instead of to earth
GreenV8S said:
The fact that you get different results with the digital and analogue meter suggests that you have a high resistance in the supply. I assume you were measuring the voltage at the solenoid end of the wiring, while the wire was disconnected.
The next step is to measure the voltage at the ignition switch end of the solenoid wire and see if you get a good solid 12v there. If so, the voltage is being lost somewhere along that wire, which indicates wiring fault or an alarm problem.
Just as a sanity check, are you sure the analogue meter actually works and that you were getting a good contact on the probes? I'm reluctant to trust 'zero' readings, I prefer to double check them by measuring the same thing another way e.g. measure to 12v instead of to earth
The next step is to measure the voltage at the ignition switch end of the solenoid wire and see if you get a good solid 12v there. If so, the voltage is being lost somewhere along that wire, which indicates wiring fault or an alarm problem.
Just as a sanity check, are you sure the analogue meter actually works and that you were getting a good contact on the probes? I'm reluctant to trust 'zero' readings, I prefer to double check them by measuring the same thing another way e.g. measure to 12v instead of to earth
I'm confident that the meters were telling the 'truth' (so far as relatively cheap instruments are capable)... TBH, I've worked through all the connectors in the relevant circuitry and cleaned up those that I could easily do. As the thing is working now, I've not been able to measure anything unexpected again and I'm going to do the Modwise hot start mod just to see if that helps (figure it wont harm anything). Sort of thinking immobiliser now but not fully sure. AA card living in car at mo
Gary, on the upside I'm glad you're mobile again, on the downside, I too hate an unknown quantity.
Is it possible that the differnt reading you were getting on the 2 meters is down to the leads on one being faulty?
My initial thought is: what changed from last night? Only temperature. but that would only have been different by a few degrees from yesterday's.
I tend to think this is an alarm problem and thet when you operated the alarm/immob this morning it resolved a coding problem. No way to prove that though.
Is it possible that the differnt reading you were getting on the 2 meters is down to the leads on one being faulty?
My initial thought is: what changed from last night? Only temperature. but that would only have been different by a few degrees from yesterday's.
I tend to think this is an alarm problem and thet when you operated the alarm/immob this morning it resolved a coding problem. No way to prove that though.
Edited by tyre_tread on Monday 10th July 10:00
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