Outrigger Woes!!!
Discussion
Hi all,
Just after some comments and opinions please.
Last night i was bored and decided to grease up the UJ's on the steering rack and grease the suspension bushes and noticed loads of c**p had built up on top of the out riggers.
I had a poke about with a small screwdriver
to remove them and a hole appeared on the top of the outrigger that runs along the underside of the door sill.
This is not a huge problem as i used to be a welder and was going to strip the car right down to do a complete restoration on it over the winter, as in shotblast the chassis, repair and replace any rough condition metal, re-coat and replace as much as possible.
However i was thinking of a cunning plan...
Why not replace the tubes with stainless instead of mild steel...???
I know the strengths and properties are slightly differnet but if you had a side impact that would bend these tubes i think you would be worrying about a lot more other things.
Also the stainless woould outlast the rest of the car.
There would also be no complications in welding stainless to mild steel as you can get dis-similar welding rods specially designed for this purpose.
And just think...no more struggling to make sure the tops of the tubes are painted!!!
Has anyone got any thoughts or opinions on why i should not go down this route...???
Just after some comments and opinions please.
Last night i was bored and decided to grease up the UJ's on the steering rack and grease the suspension bushes and noticed loads of c**p had built up on top of the out riggers.
I had a poke about with a small screwdriver
to remove them and a hole appeared on the top of the outrigger that runs along the underside of the door sill. This is not a huge problem as i used to be a welder and was going to strip the car right down to do a complete restoration on it over the winter, as in shotblast the chassis, repair and replace any rough condition metal, re-coat and replace as much as possible.
However i was thinking of a cunning plan...
Why not replace the tubes with stainless instead of mild steel...???
I know the strengths and properties are slightly differnet but if you had a side impact that would bend these tubes i think you would be worrying about a lot more other things.
Also the stainless woould outlast the rest of the car.
There would also be no complications in welding stainless to mild steel as you can get dis-similar welding rods specially designed for this purpose.
And just think...no more struggling to make sure the tops of the tubes are painted!!!
Has anyone got any thoughts or opinions on why i should not go down this route...???
Casting my mind back a few years I would say that brittle failure would be your only concern. Stainless will work harden more quickly than plain carbon steel and if there is a combination of stress and salt the fatigue life will be much lower. However I can't see much stress going on in outriggers. Different story if you were going to do wishbone mountings or suchlike. As for bending strength, what grade of carbon steel do the factory use? Unlikely to be high strength, in which case 304 or 316 would be almost the same, if worried, see what wall thickness are available and go up one on the original.
jason1788 said:
Casting my mind back a few years I would say that brittle failure would be your only concern. Stainless will work harden more quickly than plain carbon steel and if there is a combination of stress and salt the fatigue life will be much lower. However I can't see much stress going on in outriggers. Different story if you were going to do wishbone mountings or suchlike. As for bending strength, what grade of carbon steel do the factory use? Unlikely to be high strength, in which case 304 or 316 would be almost the same, if worried, see what wall thickness are available and go up one on the original.
the stress in the outriggers comes when the car is lifted by these at a service
I would have thought that most of the stress in lifting would have gone into the diagonals at the front and rear...not the ones that run along the sills.
In theory you could PROABABLY lift from those points without the tube running along the sills as they are not load bearing???
Hey Ray_Von,
If you were a real mate and being a fellow chim owner who lives just round the corner when are you going to pop round to give me a hand...should only take a night or two!!!
In theory you could PROABABLY lift from those points without the tube running along the sills as they are not load bearing???
Hey Ray_Von,
If you were a real mate and being a fellow chim owner who lives just round the corner when are you going to pop round to give me a hand...should only take a night or two!!!
smb said:
the stress in the outriggers comes when the car is lifted by these at a service
True, but this will only be applied a few hundred times in the life of the vehicle. As the stress itself would be quite low I would expect well into the thousands or maybe tens of thousands of cycles before the fatigue risk would be significant.
Might be getting mixed up here...but seem to remember reading something about peter wheelers tuscan race car chassis NOT being made from steel, was it stainless? or an alloy?
Plus...in terms of a chassis jig...wonder what TVR do with the old ones? Do TVR make/sell replacement chassis and hence hold on to the jigs? Saw a chimaera jig on the factory tour as part of he back home event this year so they are still there...
Good luck Andy!
Plus...in terms of a chassis jig...wonder what TVR do with the old ones? Do TVR make/sell replacement chassis and hence hold on to the jigs? Saw a chimaera jig on the factory tour as part of he back home event this year so they are still there...
Good luck Andy!
I have heard they keep the jigs...cant remember where from though.
And to be honest from TVR's point of view...the main consumable on the cars are going to be wishbones and chassis.
Unless something mechanical fails or its involved in a crash!!!
Think i best read up on that thread 'Deep breath for the body off...'
And to be honest from TVR's point of view...the main consumable on the cars are going to be wishbones and chassis.
Unless something mechanical fails or its involved in a crash!!!
Think i best read up on that thread 'Deep breath for the body off...'
petea said:
Might be getting mixed up here...but seem to remember reading something about peter wheelers tuscan race car chassis NOT being made from steel, was it stainless? or an alloy?
Plus...in terms of a chassis jig...wonder what TVR do with the old ones? Do TVR make/sell replacement chassis and hence hold on to the jigs? Saw a chimaera jig on the factory tour as part of he back home event this year so they are still there...
Good luck Andy!
Plus...in terms of a chassis jig...wonder what TVR do with the old ones? Do TVR make/sell replacement chassis and hence hold on to the jigs? Saw a chimaera jig on the factory tour as part of he back home event this year so they are still there...
Good luck Andy!
IRC it was made of Stainless Steel !!
andy-w said:
...
Think i best read up on that thread 'Deep breath for the body off...'
www.griffith.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/ Is a rather good rebuild link too..Think i best read up on that thread 'Deep breath for the body off...'
RichardD said:
andy-w said:
...
Think i best read up on that thread 'Deep breath for the body off...'
www.griffith.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/ Is a rather good rebuild link too..Think i best read up on that thread 'Deep breath for the body off...'
Excellent link and a good detailed write up...especially as i was going to strip and rebuild the engine as well!!!
What are the outriggers exactly? I've been researching Chimera's with the intent of buyiong for months and months, but I've been too embarassed to ask for fear of looking stupid. But now i'd really like to know. Can someone tell me / post a pic? Thank you.
Oh, and I've done loads of searches, and all that seems to get returned, are threads with people talking 'about' them, not saying what they are.
Thank you in advance.
Oh, and I've done loads of searches, and all that seems to get returned, are threads with people talking 'about' them, not saying what they are.
Thank you in advance.
Its not a question to get embarrassed over.
If you check them and they are in good condition then you dont have to do the massive job i have got to do now!!!
They run along the length of the carbetween the wheel under the door sills...they are the outermost parts of the chassis.
If you look toward the rear of the front wheel arch you will see tow tubes running from the main chasssis rails to the bottom edge of the wheel arch (in line with the wheel) where these join there is a third tube that runs back to the rear wheel arch.
Its these that rot...badly!!!
To fix them you replace them you really need to remove the chassis, cut them out and weld new ones in place...
Hang on...
...i could always spray expanding foam down the hole!!!!
If you check them and they are in good condition then you dont have to do the massive job i have got to do now!!!
They run along the length of the carbetween the wheel under the door sills...they are the outermost parts of the chassis.
If you look toward the rear of the front wheel arch you will see tow tubes running from the main chasssis rails to the bottom edge of the wheel arch (in line with the wheel) where these join there is a third tube that runs back to the rear wheel arch.
Its these that rot...badly!!!
To fix them you replace them you really need to remove the chassis, cut them out and weld new ones in place...
Hang on...
...i could always spray expanding foam down the hole!!!!andy-w said:
Its not a question to get embarrassed over.
If you check them and they are in good condition then you dont have to do the massive job i have got to do now!!!
They run along the length of the carbetween the wheel under the door sills...they are the outermost parts of the chassis.
If you look toward the rear of the front wheel arch you will see tow tubes running from the main chasssis rails to the bottom edge of the wheel arch (in line with the wheel) where these join there is a third tube that runs back to the rear wheel arch.
Its these that rot...badly!!!
To fix them you replace them you really need to remove the chassis, cut them out and weld new ones in place...
Hang on... ...i could always spray expanding foam down the hole!!!!
If you check them and they are in good condition then you dont have to do the massive job i have got to do now!!!
They run along the length of the carbetween the wheel under the door sills...they are the outermost parts of the chassis.
If you look toward the rear of the front wheel arch you will see tow tubes running from the main chasssis rails to the bottom edge of the wheel arch (in line with the wheel) where these join there is a third tube that runs back to the rear wheel arch.
Its these that rot...badly!!!
To fix them you replace them you really need to remove the chassis, cut them out and weld new ones in place...
Hang on...
...i could always spray expanding foam down the hole!!!!One extra thing, at the back end of the outrigger in front of the rear wheel is a metal plate with a bolt through it - thats the seat belt mounting (see my 'Mucky Pic's' thread under the Griff forum) - now you want to make sure this is rotten for obvious reasons
jason1788 said:
smb said:
the stress in the outriggers comes when the car is lifted by these at a service
True, but this will only be applied a few hundred times in the life of the vehicle. As the stress itself would be quite low I would expect well into the thousands or maybe tens of thousands of cycles before the fatigue risk would be significant.
when a car is lifted , the pads don't sit centreed on the diagonals, so a twisting force would be extered, the side sills will take the strain to stop this twisting occuring.
So yes the diagonals take most ogf the stresses, but if the outiggers are weakened the lifting poiints have the potential to move, and cause problems.
There was a lengthy thread on here a couple of year's back where it was concluded that this would be a bad idea. As I recall StSt cannot absorb the flexing that these chassis see. The tubes would fatigue and fracture where the twisting motion is greatest, possibly where the outriggers attach to the ladder frame hangers. You may get away with using thicker gauge tubing to prevent flexing but StSt is heavier than mild steel so your planned 'heavy' chassis would be very heavy.
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