Help!! Am I being ripped off?
Discussion
I haven't got a clue about cars so I phoned up a local TVR garage because I had a water leak. Also being new to this car I didn't know where it was coming from or where to look. They said that it was probably a cracked radiator (a common problem apparently!). I asked them how much a new one would cost to be fitted and they quoted just under £200 + vat, so I booked it in. They told me it would be o.k. to drive it over to them if I was careful. When I went to start the car it wouldn't go so I phoned the garage up and they arranged to collect it. I spoke to them the next day and they said that the radiator was done but a water seal on the engine had gone. They said the gasket was going to be a couple of quid but the labour would cost about £150 which I agreed to. I spoke to them today and they faxed me a copy of the bill and I am in shock. They have done the work that I asked them to do but some things I wasn't told about have appeared on the bill i.e. sump gasket, 6l of oil, oil filter, sealent and sump washer.Can someone please tell me if it is normal practice to replace all of these things just to change a water seal and would the oil of needed replacing as it has only done 1000 miles since it was last serviced. My bill is now £738! Do you think this is about right or not?
sounds like you got the radiator done for a fair price,if indeed it definately needed replacing.the reason i say this is that they found "another leak".now whilst this may be true,at the end of the day they only quoted you £150 plus a couple of quid for the other problem.though i may be wrong on this,i dont see why they had to drop the sump, and they definately should have consulted you first about any extra charges involved.this extra work still wouldnt bring the bill to the total you have been charged.i would definately not have had oil and filter changed at this mileage.your bill shouldnt have been any more than say £400 all in.insist you didnt ask for any extras and werent consulted about any more costs.to me they are taking the p1ss and i would be at all happy.
Doubling the price without warning is not on. End of story. (It happens all the time, though.)
No leaks and then suddenly there were two. Hmmm. Possible, but also miss-diagnosis first time is possible. (Water leak from the pump can run along the underside of the chassis members and magically appear near the front of the car.) Both are common places to have leaks, and replacing the gasket on the water pump is labour intensive and therefore pricey (frankly 150 notes for that sounds OK).
I'd want a good explanation as to why they mucked around with the sump, and why I should be paying for it. When that gasket was replaced on my car, I'm certain they didn't touch the sump. I wish I could tell you how much that bit of work cost, but it was wrapped up in a bill with a lot of other minor jobs, so impossible to seperate it out.
There is nothing wrong ... ever ... with making them justify a bill. If they can't convince you that they are trustworthy, then bugger off to the nearest independent with a good reputation. Local TVRCC should be able to help with recommendations.
No leaks and then suddenly there were two. Hmmm. Possible, but also miss-diagnosis first time is possible. (Water leak from the pump can run along the underside of the chassis members and magically appear near the front of the car.) Both are common places to have leaks, and replacing the gasket on the water pump is labour intensive and therefore pricey (frankly 150 notes for that sounds OK).
I'd want a good explanation as to why they mucked around with the sump, and why I should be paying for it. When that gasket was replaced on my car, I'm certain they didn't touch the sump. I wish I could tell you how much that bit of work cost, but it was wrapped up in a bill with a lot of other minor jobs, so impossible to seperate it out.
There is nothing wrong ... ever ... with making them justify a bill. If they can't convince you that they are trustworthy, then bugger off to the nearest independent with a good reputation. Local TVRCC should be able to help with recommendations.
Thank you for your help. I really haven't got a clue about cars so I'm glad I found out about Piston Heads.
I am also a member of the TVRCC and I have bought a copy of 'The Bible' part 2 but unfortunately I am still no mechanic!!
One last thing - Please can anybody give me some idea about what I should be asking them about the work that has been done when I go to collect my car tomorrow (apart from the obvious - why didn't you tell me before doing anything else?!!)
Any suggestions would be appreciated.
I am also a member of the TVRCC and I have bought a copy of 'The Bible' part 2 but unfortunately I am still no mechanic!!
One last thing - Please can anybody give me some idea about what I should be asking them about the work that has been done when I go to collect my car tomorrow (apart from the obvious - why didn't you tell me before doing anything else?!!)
Any suggestions would be appreciated.
Tell them that for the amount you have spent on it you expect the car not to leak now and say it will be back if it does leak (you never know if they fixed the right bit). Also ask if they put coolant in, not just water. Coolant has various properties including anti corrosion and raising the boiling point of the, er, coolant.
T/.
T/.
Get them to explain the work to you stage by stage. Act as ignorant as you like. Get them to show you pictures and diagrams if you like.
Apologies for patronising you, but if you don't know, here is some basic information to clarify things. The sump is the reservoir at the bottom of the engine that holds all of the oil (when you fill up the car with oil, it all falls to the bottom - logical really!!). From here, the engine picks up, circulates and returns the oil when it is running. It does this by magic. Part of the oil cycle is through the oil filter, which removes small pieces of junk that get carried in suspension in the oil as it circulates. The filter is disposable (about £10) and has to be replaced from time to time as it gets clagged up.
Normally you change the oil by undoing a small plug on the bottom of the sump and it all runs out. You then put the plug back in (with a new sump washer), remove and replace the filter and fill the engine up with oil again (about 6l). Its a messy, but very simple job, and the more frequently you change your oil the better (so they have not done any harm).
The sump itself is like an upturned washing-up bowl attached to the bottom of the engine. You don't normally have to remove it as you can get the oil out by the plug. You only normally remove it to fix things that you can only get to via the bottom of the engine. These things are usually serious things like the magic device that distributes the oil. However, removing the sump is quite easy, after the oil has been drained, but you must fit a gasket between the sump itself and the engine block. A gasket is a bit of paper or similar substance that seals gaps between two surfaces (sump and engine in this case). Gaskets are cheap as chips.
To remove a sump, change the oil etc. etc. is less than one hours work for a competent mechanic.
Why the hell they had to do any of these to fix a water leak is beyond me. Pies may have a point, but I can't think of a water leak that you would access from inside the sump without major work (essentially block damage) which would be very expensive. Replacing a gasket for a water leak would normally point at something more mundane like water pump or thermostat - neither of which would need the sump to come off. The sump does not hold any water!!
There may be a reason that someone who knows these engines better than I can elaborate on, and we should not automatically assume that the garage is corrupt, but I'm stumped.
I really hope that gives you enough information to ask lots of 'why, why, why', type questions. Best of luck.
Apologies for patronising you, but if you don't know, here is some basic information to clarify things. The sump is the reservoir at the bottom of the engine that holds all of the oil (when you fill up the car with oil, it all falls to the bottom - logical really!!). From here, the engine picks up, circulates and returns the oil when it is running. It does this by magic. Part of the oil cycle is through the oil filter, which removes small pieces of junk that get carried in suspension in the oil as it circulates. The filter is disposable (about £10) and has to be replaced from time to time as it gets clagged up.
Normally you change the oil by undoing a small plug on the bottom of the sump and it all runs out. You then put the plug back in (with a new sump washer), remove and replace the filter and fill the engine up with oil again (about 6l). Its a messy, but very simple job, and the more frequently you change your oil the better (so they have not done any harm).
The sump itself is like an upturned washing-up bowl attached to the bottom of the engine. You don't normally have to remove it as you can get the oil out by the plug. You only normally remove it to fix things that you can only get to via the bottom of the engine. These things are usually serious things like the magic device that distributes the oil. However, removing the sump is quite easy, after the oil has been drained, but you must fit a gasket between the sump itself and the engine block. A gasket is a bit of paper or similar substance that seals gaps between two surfaces (sump and engine in this case). Gaskets are cheap as chips.
To remove a sump, change the oil etc. etc. is less than one hours work for a competent mechanic.
Why the hell they had to do any of these to fix a water leak is beyond me. Pies may have a point, but I can't think of a water leak that you would access from inside the sump without major work (essentially block damage) which would be very expensive. Replacing a gasket for a water leak would normally point at something more mundane like water pump or thermostat - neither of which would need the sump to come off. The sump does not hold any water!!
There may be a reason that someone who knows these engines better than I can elaborate on, and we should not automatically assume that the garage is corrupt, but I'm stumped.
I really hope that gives you enough information to ask lots of 'why, why, why', type questions. Best of luck.
Beljames says
"Why the hell they had to do any of these to fix a water leak is beyond me. Pies may have a point, but I can't think of a water leak that you would access from inside the sump without major work (essentially block damage) which would be very expensive. Replacing a gasket for a water leak would normally point at something more mundane like water pump or thermostat - neither of which would need the sump to come off.
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Allow me to try and explain.
There are three gaskets at the front of the engine involving the cooling system. One is the thermostat gasket, and another is the gasket between the water pump and the timing cover. These would have been relatively straight forward to fix and would not have involved removing the sump. The third gasket is the one between the timing cover and the front of the engine block. To replace this gasket you have to remove the timing cover. However, there is at least one and possibly two bolts which secure the sump pan onto the bottom of the timing cover. So in order to remove the timing cover you have to loosen those sump bolts. This necessitates draining off the engine oil. If you are very lucky you may then be able to seperate the timing cover from the sump pan without damaging the sump gasket and need only use a dab of sealant to reseal the sump gasket on reassembly. If however the sump gasket is damaged as you remove
the timing cover (very likely!) then that gasket will also have to be renewed. The engine oil would not have been re-used as it may have been contaminated by water, either as a result of the gasket failure or in the dismantling process itself. The filter would therefore be changed as a matter of course. This job, although time consuming involves no specialst tools and can be undertaken, by any reasonably competent home mechanic using the relavant Haynes Range Rover manual. It took me around 5 hours from start to finish so £150 for labour for this part of the job doesn't seem unreasonable at todays garage rates. The oil, oil filter, sump gasket, and sump plug washer are necessary extras on the bill
>> Edited by sparkythecat on Monday 24th March 23:22
>> Edited by sparkythecat on Monday 24th March 23:31
"Why the hell they had to do any of these to fix a water leak is beyond me. Pies may have a point, but I can't think of a water leak that you would access from inside the sump without major work (essentially block damage) which would be very expensive. Replacing a gasket for a water leak would normally point at something more mundane like water pump or thermostat - neither of which would need the sump to come off.
----------------------------------------------------
Allow me to try and explain.
There are three gaskets at the front of the engine involving the cooling system. One is the thermostat gasket, and another is the gasket between the water pump and the timing cover. These would have been relatively straight forward to fix and would not have involved removing the sump. The third gasket is the one between the timing cover and the front of the engine block. To replace this gasket you have to remove the timing cover. However, there is at least one and possibly two bolts which secure the sump pan onto the bottom of the timing cover. So in order to remove the timing cover you have to loosen those sump bolts. This necessitates draining off the engine oil. If you are very lucky you may then be able to seperate the timing cover from the sump pan without damaging the sump gasket and need only use a dab of sealant to reseal the sump gasket on reassembly. If however the sump gasket is damaged as you remove
the timing cover (very likely!) then that gasket will also have to be renewed. The engine oil would not have been re-used as it may have been contaminated by water, either as a result of the gasket failure or in the dismantling process itself. The filter would therefore be changed as a matter of course. This job, although time consuming involves no specialst tools and can be undertaken, by any reasonably competent home mechanic using the relavant Haynes Range Rover manual. It took me around 5 hours from start to finish so £150 for labour for this part of the job doesn't seem unreasonable at todays garage rates. The oil, oil filter, sump gasket, and sump plug washer are necessary extras on the bill
>> Edited by sparkythecat on Monday 24th March 23:22
>> Edited by sparkythecat on Monday 24th March 23:31
Thanks to all of you for your help. It has made things a bit clearer. It's nice to know I can turn to Piston Heads for advice. Still not sure how I am going to break the news to the other half. Still, he's just volunteered to go and collect it. Hope he's got his credit card with him!!!
I would also ask the following:-
1) Where was the seal that had gone?
2) It sounds very co-incidental that both a seal and the rad failed at the same time?
3) Ask them to explain why it failed to start - I would certainly want to be sur ethey had identified this fault and cured it.
4) Ask to see the failed rad and ask them to show you where it was leaking from
I would be a bit suspicious of the rad', however for what it's worth if the seal (where ever it is) allowed water to contaminate the oil then changing the oil was essential, oh and has been said ensure there is coolant (anti-freeze) in the system. Rich...
1) Where was the seal that had gone?
2) It sounds very co-incidental that both a seal and the rad failed at the same time?
3) Ask them to explain why it failed to start - I would certainly want to be sur ethey had identified this fault and cured it.
4) Ask to see the failed rad and ask them to show you where it was leaking from
I would be a bit suspicious of the rad', however for what it's worth if the seal (where ever it is) allowed water to contaminate the oil then changing the oil was essential, oh and has been said ensure there is coolant (anti-freeze) in the system. Rich...
Sorry. It's me again. My partner picked the car up today and they explained everything to him. Can't remember exactly what they said but he is happy, even with the price!! They showed him all the work they had done and explained why they had to do it. He thought they were vey helpful. I think I will just leave this sort of stuff to him in the future. Thanks again for all your help.
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