Discussion
Chim's not starting. Strongly suspect the starter is a dodo, based on the bible, but appreciate any other ideas (or confirmation) - especially since #2 below seems plain weird. Symptoms:
1) Petrol pump primes OK
2) Battery light (and other indicators) goes off as I turn the ignition, as normal (but doesn't come back on when I release the key...?)
3) There's no sense of the starter trying to turn the engine and failing, like you get with low battery or hot-start problem. Plus the engine's not been running for a week, so should be cool by now :-)
4) When up on axle stands with the bonnet open I could hear a relay-like clicking from the engine bay; presumably solenoid on the starter (or "hot-start" relay - not sure where these are normally put)
5) HT lead to the starter has >11 volts on it
6) Happened once a couple of weeks ago; got a pull-start and she ran fine all the way home. Worked OK for the next week, then wouldn't start when I tried to set off last Monday.
7) Have tried rocking the car in 3rd gear; symptoms unchanged.
8) Just got her back from a camshaft replacement (not a symptom as such, but everything's been unplugged recently).
Haven't confirmed LT feed to starter is working OK since I've only got one pair of hands, and wouldn't fancy sticking my head under a car on only stands whilst someone tried to start it anyway. Comments?
1) Petrol pump primes OK
2) Battery light (and other indicators) goes off as I turn the ignition, as normal (but doesn't come back on when I release the key...?)
3) There's no sense of the starter trying to turn the engine and failing, like you get with low battery or hot-start problem. Plus the engine's not been running for a week, so should be cool by now :-)
4) When up on axle stands with the bonnet open I could hear a relay-like clicking from the engine bay; presumably solenoid on the starter (or "hot-start" relay - not sure where these are normally put)
5) HT lead to the starter has >11 volts on it
6) Happened once a couple of weeks ago; got a pull-start and she ran fine all the way home. Worked OK for the next week, then wouldn't start when I tried to set off last Monday.
7) Have tried rocking the car in 3rd gear; symptoms unchanged.
8) Just got her back from a camshaft replacement (not a symptom as such, but everything's been unplugged recently).
Haven't confirmed LT feed to starter is working OK since I've only got one pair of hands, and wouldn't fancy sticking my head under a car on only stands whilst someone tried to start it anyway. Comments?
Edited by PhilipC on Sunday 8th April 15:56
Sorry, should have been more specific about the voltage. Have a feeling it was 11.8, but couldn't remember. Was 11.77 this morning, dropping to 11.5 as the pump primed, and then ~8.7 as she promptly cranked 
Was so suprised that I set the key back to off (battery voltage back up to 11.68). Tried again, with success asgain (didn't let her fire up properly, because she's parked outside someone else's house and nobody wants to annoy the neighbours that much). Tried one final time with no response again! Key out, leave it a while (few seconds), try again with no response!
Have got the charger on to top the battery up; maybe just a little low after repeated attempts to start? This does get weirder and weirder, though: what should my next move be?
Was so suprised that I set the key back to off (battery voltage back up to 11.68). Tried again, with success asgain (didn't let her fire up properly, because she's parked outside someone else's house and nobody wants to annoy the neighbours that much). Tried one final time with no response again! Key out, leave it a while (few seconds), try again with no response!
Have got the charger on to top the battery up; maybe just a little low after repeated attempts to start? This does get weirder and weirder, though: what should my next move be?
Edited by PhilipC on Monday 9th April 07:37
Battery now fully charged (~12.6V), so it's not that. Battery voltage did NOT dip when I turned the ign to start, so the starter itself can't getting any juice. Unless someone with more of a clue can offer a fourth choice, this probably means either:
1) The switch signal isn't getting to the solenoid
2) The solenoid isn't connecting the power line to the starter
3) The starter's coils are stuffed (?possible?)
(2) seems unlikely, since I heard a relay-like clicking noise from the engine bay when turning the key yesterday, despite the starter not working. (3) seems very unlikely, given that it's an intermittant problem. I'm guessing at (1) until I can get a reading off the switch inlet on the starter (andor hot-wire it). Is the switch voltage supposed to just be 12V?
1) The switch signal isn't getting to the solenoid
2) The solenoid isn't connecting the power line to the starter
3) The starter's coils are stuffed (?possible?)
(2) seems unlikely, since I heard a relay-like clicking noise from the engine bay when turning the key yesterday, despite the starter not working. (3) seems very unlikely, given that it's an intermittant problem. I'm guessing at (1) until I can get a reading off the switch inlet on the starter (andor hot-wire it). Is the switch voltage supposed to just be 12V?
From those symptoms I would guess a sticking starter solenoid most likely, next guess would be a poor engine earth. If it is an earth fault you would see a positive voltage (relative to battery earth) on the engine block when you try to turn the engine over. Worst case scenario this sort of fault can also damage the ECU, but fingers crossed once you manage to get the starter working it will fire up OK.
Next time, don't try it until you're willing to start the engine and make sure you don't let go of the key in surprise if it does go.
Next time, don't try it until you're willing to start the engine and make sure you don't let go of the key in surprise if it does go.
Think the culprit has been found; the relay between the ignition and the low-power feed to the starter. Coil is energising with the start position on the key, and the switched side sits between +12V and the starter solenoid. It's reacting (I could feel it), but not switching (confirmed with multimeter). Having taken it out I can't find a problem, but I'll swap it and see if that fixes things. I'll re-post later to confirm. Much better than a broken wire or a duff starter, though.
Edited by PhilipC on Monday 9th April 12:09
Ugh. Not the relay, then. Looks like what's actually happening is that the relay activates correctly and pulls it's +12V feed to earth, presumably through the starter solenoid's windings. The starter side of the solenoid isn't being switched up to +12V from the main lead, though. So Peter may well have been on the money.
It seems that the solenoid is held to the body of the starter with a bolt on the bottom, and I'm assuming another on the top. Is it possiblesensible to try to remove, clean, grease(?) and re-fit the solenoid as a DIY job? In an afternoon?
It seems that the solenoid is held to the body of the starter with a bolt on the bottom, and I'm assuming another on the top. Is it possiblesensible to try to remove, clean, grease(?) and re-fit the solenoid as a DIY job? In an afternoon?
Take a look at the end of this thread - it might just save you a few bob!
www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&t=355936&hw=+%2Bjack+%2Bhandle
Basically, it was a sticking solenoid, which was released by giving it a 'gentle'
from above (through the engine bay) with a jack handle!
www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&t=355936&hw=+%2Bjack+%2Bhandle
Basically, it was a sticking solenoid, which was released by giving it a 'gentle'
from above (through the engine bay) with a jack handle! Edited by chim666 on Thursday 12th April 16:23
I had problem of turn over getting slow (like duff battery) then not even trying to start at all. fuel pump primes but not even a solenoid click. read about hot start, wiring issues etc.
i decided to take the starter off and opened it up, It was full of wet stickly black stuff/dirt, all over the bushes etc. Carefully cleaned it (not to damage commutator surface or bushes), jumps into life ever since.
mike
i decided to take the starter off and opened it up, It was full of wet stickly black stuff/dirt, all over the bushes etc. Carefully cleaned it (not to damage commutator surface or bushes), jumps into life ever since.
mike
Many thanks all. Took the starter off, removed the solenoid, dismantled & cleaned and re-built. Now works like a treat. Suspect the problem was dirty contacts inside the solenoid. Detail follows for the benefit of future searches; to be taken with a healthy dose from the bible.
Starter removal:
You'll need an 8mm hex key to remove the two bolts. To get the top one out the long arm will need to be >15cm, and to losen either you'll need an extender bar to get enough torque. I used 15mm copper pipe for the bottom bolt (with the long arm of the hex key inside it), but the copper ripped before the bolt came loose when I only had the short arm in for the top bolt; the tolley jack's handle served purpose instead. If you lie with your head under the back end of the driver's-side wishbone you can just see to put the key into the top bolt (with the bonet open for illumination); otherwise reach through the side of the chassis rails by the wheel and feel for it. Once the bolts are out the starter will try to twist, due to the weight of the solenoid on once side. It is quite heavy, but it extends about 5cm inside "the engine", so you can support it simply by pressing it against the engine. It's a tight squeeze to get it out, but it does come.
Solenoid removal & strip-down:
Bolts out - the solenoid plunger is spring-loaded, so it will come away from the starter as the bolts come loose. Solenoid off (the plunger will stay on the starter). To remove the plastic back of the starter you'll need to remove the two screws AND de-solder the two wiring terminals. You'll need to get a LOT of crud off to SEE the terminals, but they are there. You should be able to just melt the solder and waggle the cap free, and then use a bulb or braid to remove the remaining solder afterwards. There are rubber washers around the two screws and between the end cap and the solenoid body. The main contact bar runs on a pin between the metal body and the plastic end cap; it'll come loose after the cap is free. You can now take some fine wet&dry to the copper contacts. There is copper under all that carbon dust, I promise. No, really. Re-assembly is just a reverse of the above, and the plastic end-cap is keyed to only fit one way around. There are labels on the outside of the cap for which contact goes to the starter and which to the battery, but if you can't clean it up enough to see them (and forgot to label things) the smaller post on mine went to the starter. I put plenty of copper lube on the terminal bolts, since these were also sticking a bit when I dismantled, but kept the plunger and mounting faces clean.
Edited to add: Took me about 45 mins total for removal efitting (judging by how long the clock had lost without power). Strip-down and re-build was done in a morning, with interruptions.
Starter removal:
You'll need an 8mm hex key to remove the two bolts. To get the top one out the long arm will need to be >15cm, and to losen either you'll need an extender bar to get enough torque. I used 15mm copper pipe for the bottom bolt (with the long arm of the hex key inside it), but the copper ripped before the bolt came loose when I only had the short arm in for the top bolt; the tolley jack's handle served purpose instead. If you lie with your head under the back end of the driver's-side wishbone you can just see to put the key into the top bolt (with the bonet open for illumination); otherwise reach through the side of the chassis rails by the wheel and feel for it. Once the bolts are out the starter will try to twist, due to the weight of the solenoid on once side. It is quite heavy, but it extends about 5cm inside "the engine", so you can support it simply by pressing it against the engine. It's a tight squeeze to get it out, but it does come.
Solenoid removal & strip-down:
Bolts out - the solenoid plunger is spring-loaded, so it will come away from the starter as the bolts come loose. Solenoid off (the plunger will stay on the starter). To remove the plastic back of the starter you'll need to remove the two screws AND de-solder the two wiring terminals. You'll need to get a LOT of crud off to SEE the terminals, but they are there. You should be able to just melt the solder and waggle the cap free, and then use a bulb or braid to remove the remaining solder afterwards. There are rubber washers around the two screws and between the end cap and the solenoid body. The main contact bar runs on a pin between the metal body and the plastic end cap; it'll come loose after the cap is free. You can now take some fine wet&dry to the copper contacts. There is copper under all that carbon dust, I promise. No, really. Re-assembly is just a reverse of the above, and the plastic end-cap is keyed to only fit one way around. There are labels on the outside of the cap for which contact goes to the starter and which to the battery, but if you can't clean it up enough to see them (and forgot to label things) the smaller post on mine went to the starter. I put plenty of copper lube on the terminal bolts, since these were also sticking a bit when I dismantled, but kept the plunger and mounting faces clean.
Edited to add: Took me about 45 mins total for removal efitting (judging by how long the clock had lost without power). Strip-down and re-build was done in a morning, with interruptions.
Edited by PhilipC on Sunday 15th April 12:36
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