Clutch cylinder woes
Discussion
Managed to complete the G & T run with half a clutch today (and didn't get left behind)! Basically the clutch pedal travel seems to either be reduced or limited in some way. The biting point crept further down until the biting point was about 10mm further than the pedal could travel! Could not select a gear with the engine running, had to shut it down and restart in gear, and even then we had to keep the brake on to stop it creeping! The car's a '95 4.0 with a T5 box BTW.
During the run we were advised it would probably be the master cylinder at fault, as it was low on fluid and the fluid itself had some black gunk in it. There was some fluid on the drivers mat, but very little. I've done alot of searching on here aswell now and found lots of useful ideas ion previous threads. It looks like it could be a worthy contender, but I'm gonna try bleeding it first just in case it is air, wishful thinking I know, and I've plenty of DOT 4 kicking around to waste! It needs a flush anyway.
Could see no fluid underneath the car but haven't been able to actually get under it fully. I'm guessing MC, but other than the SC, is there anything else that could cause it? It did briefly start working again for about 15mins when the pedal was light as normal, then went stiff half way down and found some extra travel (this was after we topped the fluid up). After that it returned to it's faulty state.
Has anyone done a CMC on a Chim recently? I'm guessing it's a front seat out (for better access on your back) and then a case of getting right underneath and trying to free the pin that fixes the pedal to the actuator arm? Then undo the two bolts that hold the MC on after removing the pipe and pull it out?
Lastly, I've found nothing on what the cylinder is off of. Could it actually be a TVR part? Is it worth just buying the repair kit, or do they often rub the bores up inside making it too oval to re-use?
Thanks for your time!
During the run we were advised it would probably be the master cylinder at fault, as it was low on fluid and the fluid itself had some black gunk in it. There was some fluid on the drivers mat, but very little. I've done alot of searching on here aswell now and found lots of useful ideas ion previous threads. It looks like it could be a worthy contender, but I'm gonna try bleeding it first just in case it is air, wishful thinking I know, and I've plenty of DOT 4 kicking around to waste! It needs a flush anyway.
Could see no fluid underneath the car but haven't been able to actually get under it fully. I'm guessing MC, but other than the SC, is there anything else that could cause it? It did briefly start working again for about 15mins when the pedal was light as normal, then went stiff half way down and found some extra travel (this was after we topped the fluid up). After that it returned to it's faulty state.
Has anyone done a CMC on a Chim recently? I'm guessing it's a front seat out (for better access on your back) and then a case of getting right underneath and trying to free the pin that fixes the pedal to the actuator arm? Then undo the two bolts that hold the MC on after removing the pipe and pull it out?
Lastly, I've found nothing on what the cylinder is off of. Could it actually be a TVR part? Is it worth just buying the repair kit, or do they often rub the bores up inside making it too oval to re-use?
Thanks for your time!
your options are buy a part from a TVR parts dealer at 50 odd quid and get a cylinder with the fitting hole to m atch your existing pipe or get the generic part from rally design or a land rover part supplier (it was also used on morris marinas/other triumphs i believe) for half that cost, but you will need to winkle out the pipe and get a different fitting put on for a couple of quid, and winkle the pipe back in...
the basic part was generic but TVR had the female fitting in the top of the cylinder bored out to the next size up.
cheers
schmo
the basic part was generic but TVR had the female fitting in the top of the cylinder bored out to the next size up.
cheers
schmo
The clutch fluid on the floor in the driver's footwell would tend to suggest the master cylinder is leaking. It's easy to fit a repair kit (cost c. £8, Lucas/Girling SP2102 for a Hillman Imp) from inside without removing the actual cylinder, but if the cylinder is scored inside it's time to buy a new one. I fitted a repair kit that worked faultlessly until I renewed the cylinder because it started creaking/squeaking afterwards.
It's possible the clutch may come back briefly as you described, especially as you still had some fluid left. Another possible cause is the clutch release arm: its pivot can to wear a hole in it! If it's almost through I imagine you'd have similar symptoms, but as far as I can tell you just lose the clutch altogether.
It's possible the clutch may come back briefly as you described, especially as you still had some fluid left. Another possible cause is the clutch release arm: its pivot can to wear a hole in it! If it's almost through I imagine you'd have similar symptoms, but as far as I can tell you just lose the clutch altogether.
Ok thanks for the advice so far. I've found a new master cylinder which can be had for around £60, so I'll just plump for a new unit I think. Me and repair kits don't always get along and as people are saying, theres a possibility it's scored the bore up inside.
Just hope it's not this arm I've heard about!
Just hope it's not this arm I've heard about!
Worst problem is putting the cylinder back as it is very difficult - almost impossible to get something onto the bottom mounting bolt. I machined a thin ally plate that goes between the fire wall and the cylinder with a couple of threaded holes. Tighten the bolts into the plate and they stay in position and you don't need a spanner/socket on the other end. Push cylinder in place and simply tighten up the nuts on the other side.
Cider Andy said:
The clutch fluid on the floor in the driver's footwell would tend to suggest the master cylinder is leaking. It's easy to fit a repair kit (cost c. £8, Lucas/Girling SP2102 for a Hillman Imp) from inside without removing the actual cylinder, but if the cylinder is scored inside it's time to buy a new one. I fitted a repair kit that worked faultlessly until I renewed the cylinder because it started creaking/squeaking afterwards.
It's possible the clutch may come back briefly as you described, especially as you still had some fluid left. Another possible cause is the clutch release arm: its pivot can to wear a hole in it! If it's almost through I imagine you'd have similar symptoms, but as far as I can tell you just lose the clutch altogether.
What he said, but i did buy and fit a complete new one first for about £50, before finding out it was the clutch fork, RAC and £300 later all is fine!It's possible the clutch may come back briefly as you described, especially as you still had some fluid left. Another possible cause is the clutch release arm: its pivot can to wear a hole in it! If it's almost through I imagine you'd have similar symptoms, but as far as I can tell you just lose the clutch altogether.
Master cylinder did need doing though, so was justified to the wife!!!!!!
Thanks for all the good advice so far! Ordered a new cylinder from Westover today and I'll have it tomorrow morning.
I removed the drivers seat this evening....possibly the easiest thing I've ever removed from a car
Crawled underneath to try and catch a glimpse of this cylinder etc and noticed there was a fair bit of fluid around the base of it. Theres also alot of play in the pedal. Doesn't look too tricky to remove afterall. Happy days I thought.
But could I get the pin out of the end of the rod (which fixes it to the pedal)?? Could I bo
ocks!
It's this one:
What special touch am I clearly lacking then?
I removed the drivers seat this evening....possibly the easiest thing I've ever removed from a car
Crawled underneath to try and catch a glimpse of this cylinder etc and noticed there was a fair bit of fluid around the base of it. Theres also alot of play in the pedal. Doesn't look too tricky to remove afterall. Happy days I thought.
But could I get the pin out of the end of the rod (which fixes it to the pedal)?? Could I bo
ocks!It's this one:
What special touch am I clearly lacking then?
What a nightmare this is turning into!
The cylinder supplied is the right one thankfully, but what a B*****d of a job!!
Don't know who's clever idea it was to use locking nuts on a bolt that you simply can't get a spanner onto the other end of, but I hope they have since recieved an equal amount of stress that I've endured! Plus a slap for good measure!
I guess they bolt everything to that pedal box and just bolt the whole lot in at the factory, leaving us that stupid sized inspection hole.
So it's nearly in, but still no closer to actually working. I managed to remove the old one with the help of my g/f, but doing the new one up is ever worse. I can see the benefits of that plate idea, but if I had a welder I'd just weld the bolt into the lower hole.
Plan is tomorrow to fit some proper sized bolts like 13mm rather than 1/2inch or whatever these are, some anti-rattle washers and some standard nuts. Hopefully we'll be in and working!
The cylinder supplied is the right one thankfully, but what a B*****d of a job!!
Don't know who's clever idea it was to use locking nuts on a bolt that you simply can't get a spanner onto the other end of, but I hope they have since recieved an equal amount of stress that I've endured! Plus a slap for good measure!I guess they bolt everything to that pedal box and just bolt the whole lot in at the factory, leaving us that stupid sized inspection hole.
So it's nearly in, but still no closer to actually working. I managed to remove the old one with the help of my g/f, but doing the new one up is ever worse. I can see the benefits of that plate idea, but if I had a welder I'd just weld the bolt into the lower hole.
Plan is tomorrow to fit some proper sized bolts like 13mm rather than 1/2inch or whatever these are, some anti-rattle washers and some standard nuts. Hopefully we'll be in and working!
Right:
Cylinder fitted.....check
Cylinder attatched to piping and to clutch pedal.....check
System bled thoroughly with no air, or any leaks.....check
Clutch pedal depression.....not so good
Clutch operation....negative
Clutch actuator rod poking through clutch release arm.....check
The master cylinder WAS leaking and the old unit feels awful and rough, it was probably due anyway so not too bothered about replacing something that wasn't technically causing the problem. But now it looks like a bigger problem. I've seen this mentioned in the searches and it seems to be a comon failure around 70-80k miles. Any thoughts or tips would be really appreciated!!
Thanks
Cylinder fitted.....check
Cylinder attatched to piping and to clutch pedal.....check
System bled thoroughly with no air, or any leaks.....check
Clutch pedal depression.....not so good
Clutch operation....negative
Clutch actuator rod poking through clutch release arm.....check
The master cylinder WAS leaking and the old unit feels awful and rough, it was probably due anyway so not too bothered about replacing something that wasn't technically causing the problem. But now it looks like a bigger problem. I've seen this mentioned in the searches and it seems to be a comon failure around 70-80k miles. Any thoughts or tips would be really appreciated!!
Thanks
Edited by Kitchski on Sunday 6th January 16:08
Well the short story is that the arm had worn through on the pivot and we managed to source a new arm and pivot bolt and replace this fairly easily without removing the gearbox. Problem solved, we've got all the gears again!
Also gave the chassis the ultimate test be jacking up one side on an outrigger. Solid as a rock
Thanks to Tobs for the online advice and T66ORA (Tony) for the practical assistance
Also gave the chassis the ultimate test be jacking up one side on an outrigger. Solid as a rock
Thanks to Tobs for the online advice and T66ORA (Tony) for the practical assistance
Edited by Kitchski on Sunday 20th January 10:02
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