Upchange 2nd to 3rd. Oops, got 1st!

[Chim Chim Cheree]

This is a little scary, and I want to see if it's a normal feature of the T5 'box to be careful of.
On changing up from 2nd to 3rd in my 98 450, say at 60+mph, it is possible to select 1st entirely easily. Especially if upchanging snappily and sloppily.
This can cause problems on so many levels, I'm sure...
Fortunately I noticed I'd done it before letting out the clutch. Which is why I'm able to ask this question.
It surprised and worried me as all other cars I've driven previously don't allow this. Now I'm aware, I'm extra careful, but wanted to get advice on whether this is a normal feature of a performance gearbox, and therefore the responsibility of the driver, or whether I have a fault with the gearbox maybe.

I do have other slight gearbox/clutch symptoms, such as
- a bit of a clunk (barely noticeable) engaging drive in 1st & 2nd from the 'box area on moderate gas
- and a slight catch on disengaging the clutch, like it sticks v.slightly, on starting off mainly or low speed manoeuvres.
- Moving out of 4th, the selector can stick a little requiring a bit more of a shove than the other gears.

Clutch bites in the middle, and bites well, and nothing else seems unusual - apart from all the rattles, I assume from the bushes all over the car, at cold. Eases completely after a few miles.
Other than that, drives like a dream.

Any thoughts please? Cheers.

[GreenV8S]

Chim Chim Cheree said:

It surprised and worried me as all other cars I've driven previously don't allow this.

Seems to me that you must have driven some very strange cars then, because it's not normal to have any interlocks on the forward gears. The only thing stopping you grabbing a random gear is the synchro, which might baulk if you ask it to accommodate a really huge speed differential such as fifth to first quicker than it can handle.

[Chim Chim Cheree]

Some strange, most not so strange. I expect it was as you suggest speed differential/synchro rather than some kind of mechanical prevention.
However, you didn't really answer. Have you selected 1st at speed accidentally?

ETA, though it looks like you may have a different 'box?

Edited by Chim Chim Cheree on Sunday 20th January 01:13

[Cider Andy]

I'm with Chim Chim Cheree on this: I've never had a manual car that's easy to select first gear in without some force at anything above walking speed. Except high mileage ones with a lot of gearbox wear and then it's always been accompanied by a lot of grinding!

[GreenV8S]

Chim Chim Cheree said:

However, you didn't really answer. Have you selected 1st at speed accidentally?

I'm sure that at some time or other I must have selected the wrong gear by mistake, but it's so rare that I couldn't tell you last time it happened - certainly years ago. I don't recall specifically getting first instead of third. Probably my most common mistake is trying to change up from fifth in the heat of the moment, must be two or three times I've done that now.

It may be that this is happening to you at the moment because of the way you're holding the gear lever. The gearbox position is a bit unusual on these cars because it's so high relative to the driver, and it may be that you're unconsciously adopting the wrong grip as a result. Second to third should be done by pushing the lever forward with the palm of your hand, the hand moving in a diagonal line between the two gears. If you're holding the lever and trying to positively place it into the right gear instead of just pushing it, you will need to be very accurate to find the right slot in the gate and this is harder to get right consistently. Let the gearbox do it, and you'll find it's far easier.

[stackmonkey]

I've done this before (once) in my Chim - cue graunchy noise, briefly locked rear wheels and very brief massive over revving, plus lots of embarrassment.
I was lucky to get away with no engine damage (apparently would have been quickly obvious).

[spend]

GreenV8S said:

..Probably my most common mistake is trying to change up from fifth in the heat of the moment...

That is why I actually prefer the LT77 layout, frequently look for 6th on the R380 version

I didn't think syncro was present on the lower gears of many cheap cars, which may account for differences in the actual downchange feedback.

Dave

[That Daddy]

spend said:

GreenV8S said:

..Probably my most common mistake is trying to change up from fifth in the heat of the moment...

That is why I actually prefer the LT77 layout, frequently look for 6th on the R380 version

I didn't think syncro was present on the lower gears of many cheap cars, which may account for differences in the actual downchange feedback.

Dave

really,what cheap cars are these Dave,Ford Anglia,s?blimey Dave, you do come out with some chestnutsyou are awful but i like ya

[Aubrey]

Chim Chim Cheree said:

- Moving out of 4th, the selector can stick a little requiring a bit more of a shove than the other gears.

I get this, when I'm trying to change up or down from 4th, the gear stick seems to stick a little requiring a firm shove. I find if If I move gently sideways a tiny bit it sorts it.
Aubrey

[That Daddy]

Aubrey said:

Chim Chim Cheree said:

- Moving out of 4th, the selector can stick a little requiring a bit more of a shove than the other gears.

I get this, when I'm trying to change up or down from 4th, the gear stick seems to stick a little requiring a firm shove. I find if If I move gently sideways a tiny bit it sorts it.
Aubrey

I had this problem,lubed all the linkages under the centre console for the remote linkage and all is well(4th and 5th gears affected on my one)more noticable when the car was hot or weather hot.

[spend]

That Daddy said:

really,what cheap cars are these Dave,Ford Anglia,s?blimey Dave, you do come out with some chestnutsyou are awful but i like ya

Typical professional! too busy with sharp intake of breath and muttering "that sounds expensive" whilst dreaming of next holiday in Antigua to engage brain

"cheap" to buy, skipped on maintenance, abused... ie no working synchromesh left...

Dave

[That Daddy]

spend said:

That Daddy said:

really,what cheap cars are these Dave,Ford Anglia,s?blimey Dave, you do come out with some chestnutsyou are awful but i like ya

Typical professional! too busy with sharp intake of breath and muttering "that sounds expensive" whilst dreaming of next holiday in Antigua to engage brain

"cheap" to buy, skipped on maintenance, abused... ie no working synchromesh left...

Dave

like the professional bit though Dave

Edited by That Daddy on Sunday 20th January 15:14

[E1DJH]

I've not experienced this in 20k+ miles in my 450.
Try changing UP using left palm with thumb UP, and change DOWN with thumb DOWN, i.e. turn you hand over so that the palm faces the passenger seat (caps for emphasis, not shouting )
Hope it's solved by a simple hand position adjustment - not a gearbox issue

[2 sMoKiN bArReLs]

Once tried 5th to reverse (other car has 6 gears), that was a bit noisy.

[spend]

E1DJH said:

I've not experienced this in 20k+ miles in my 450.
Try changing UP using left palm with thumb UP, and change DOWN with thumb DOWN, i.e. turn you hand over so that the palm faces the passenger seat (caps for emphasis, not shouting )
Hope it's solved by a simple hand position adjustment - not a gearbox issue

I believe there is a thread on the web feedback forum proposing an isolated forum for this very subject

Dave

[Chim Chim Cheree]

Thanks guys. This all makes me feel better. I'm still learning what's normal.
Good advice GreenV8S and E1DJH, I'll practice. The hand/knob position is definitely new to me (Eh, eh, Mr Spend. Fnar fnar. Steady on now...)
And thanks for that nugget That Daddy. I'll look at greasing my linkage (watchit, Spend) when I'm next in the area.
A recent car of mine was a 6-speed, and it does take a bit of getting used to when downgrading to a 5 speed again. I know you're supposed to go 5th-Rev in these cars, but at 70mph it does feel wrong.

[E1DJH]

spend said:

E1DJH said:

I've not experienced this in 20k+ miles in my 450.
Try changing UP using left palm with thumb UP, and change DOWN with thumb DOWN, i.e. turn you hand over so that the palm faces the passenger seat (caps for emphasis, not shouting )
Hope it's solved by a simple hand position adjustment - not a gearbox issue

I believe there is a thread on the web feedback forum proposing an isolated forum for this very subject

Dave

who sir? me sir? "left handed" sir? no sir!!

[Uncle Fester]

Another possibility is that the transmission is being loaded and unloaded.
When I bought the car it came with an intermittent misfire that turned out to be a worn dizzy and an AFM telling lies.
You could drive for ages and it would be perfect. No misfire, never selected 1st instead of 3rd.
As soon as started to misfire, it became possible that you would select 1st instead of 3rd.
Having learned by letting the clutch half way up once, I always confirmed it had the correct gear.
Stopping the car and switching off, then back on would often cure the misfire and the tendency to get a wrong gear would disappear.
The only explanation I could think of to account for the coincidence was that as it misfired it was rapidly loading and unloading the drive train. Things must have been moving on their mounts. All the mounts were checked and found good as was the gear linkage.

I can only think that in the moved position, things line up wrong.

Can anyone think of another explanation?

[spend]

Uncle Fester said:

Can anyone think of another explanation?

You bought a nail?

Dave

[crackedfinger]

Chim Chim Cheree said:

This is a little scary, and I want to see if it's a normal feature of the T5 'box to be careful of.
On changing up from 2nd to 3rd in my 98 450, say at 60+mph, it is possible to select 1st entirely easily. Especially if upchanging snappily and sloppily.
This can cause problems on so many levels, I'm sure...
Fortunately I noticed I'd done it before letting out the clutch. Which is why I'm able to ask this question.

I've done it too, was just pulling out to overtake & pulling up the clutch into what I thought was 3rd, 1/2 way through biting the car engine braked, lucky I put the clutch back in(!). Learned less to pay more attention when changing gears.