Fueling/Lambda question
Discussion
Hi all,
After getting the Emerald system up and running completely I have been left with two small issues regarding the engine running. The first was it not starting or idling properly when cold which I've sorted today by altering the stepper motor map so it now idles much happier (great satisfaction from that!). The second is the lambda reading my Innovate LC-1 is giving out which I haven't been able to solve. I thought I'd ask for a few opinions to try this weekend before I give Dave a call on Monday. So here's the story so far:
Ok on the Emerald live screen, once warm and idling I get a value of around 12.1 when it should be around 14.5. So First off, I re-calibrated the sensor and ended up with the same reading. So I then checked the analog output by plugging the lappy into the lambda controller and running the Innovate software; it reads more like 11.8. So there is a small amount of earthing interference which these things are prone to, but not much and that can be solved by re-earthing straight to the battery which I will do asap. It still reads bloody rich though so after speaking to Bill (the Innovate guy in the UK), he said it could be a broken sensor so sent me out a new one. I just plumbed that in and it reads exactly the same as the other one, so it's not the sensor.
Now the engine doesn't smell that rich but to check I started playing with the injector trim on the live adjustment screen and found that I could get the lambda reading to come down to around 14.5 by trimming the injectors back by around 7-9ms at idle by which point, the car is still idling ok, but the engine is starting to shake a bit, implying it's going to soon stall. Bumping it back up to 0 trim and it sounds much happier (where Dave mapped it). So As far as I can tell; it's not running rich, it's not got a faulty sensor or a bad earthing problem so I'm just a bit stumped! Has anyone had any experience in this area and do you have anything I could try to locate the problem?
It's not urgent as the car runs absolutely fine without the lambda signal, but I would like to run it closed loop when I have a good reliable AFR feed to the ECU so need to get it sorted. For extra information, the car is a 450 full decat running various bits and bobs and the lambda is mounted just after the join in the y-piece (which is just before the downpipe as it's an ACT system).
After getting the Emerald system up and running completely I have been left with two small issues regarding the engine running. The first was it not starting or idling properly when cold which I've sorted today by altering the stepper motor map so it now idles much happier (great satisfaction from that!). The second is the lambda reading my Innovate LC-1 is giving out which I haven't been able to solve. I thought I'd ask for a few opinions to try this weekend before I give Dave a call on Monday. So here's the story so far:
Ok on the Emerald live screen, once warm and idling I get a value of around 12.1 when it should be around 14.5. So First off, I re-calibrated the sensor and ended up with the same reading. So I then checked the analog output by plugging the lappy into the lambda controller and running the Innovate software; it reads more like 11.8. So there is a small amount of earthing interference which these things are prone to, but not much and that can be solved by re-earthing straight to the battery which I will do asap. It still reads bloody rich though so after speaking to Bill (the Innovate guy in the UK), he said it could be a broken sensor so sent me out a new one. I just plumbed that in and it reads exactly the same as the other one, so it's not the sensor.
Now the engine doesn't smell that rich but to check I started playing with the injector trim on the live adjustment screen and found that I could get the lambda reading to come down to around 14.5 by trimming the injectors back by around 7-9ms at idle by which point, the car is still idling ok, but the engine is starting to shake a bit, implying it's going to soon stall. Bumping it back up to 0 trim and it sounds much happier (where Dave mapped it). So As far as I can tell; it's not running rich, it's not got a faulty sensor or a bad earthing problem so I'm just a bit stumped! Has anyone had any experience in this area and do you have anything I could try to locate the problem?
It's not urgent as the car runs absolutely fine without the lambda signal, but I would like to run it closed loop when I have a good reliable AFR feed to the ECU so need to get it sorted. For extra information, the car is a 450 full decat running various bits and bobs and the lambda is mounted just after the join in the y-piece (which is just before the downpipe as it's an ACT system).
Edited by thenick on Saturday 8th March 16:41
hi nick
When you installed the sensor did you follow the first time use part of the manual about calibrating to fresh air/power up the LC1 for ten seconds then off ten seconds then connect lambda sensor in fresh air for 2 mins, did you do this with the sensor out of the exhaust as if it was in the exhuast shurely there could be some exhaust gasses present.
When you installed the sensor did you follow the first time use part of the manual about calibrating to fresh air/power up the LC1 for ten seconds then off ten seconds then connect lambda sensor in fresh air for 2 mins, did you do this with the sensor out of the exhaust as if it was in the exhuast shurely there could be some exhaust gasses present.
chrispitman said:
hi nick
When you installed the sensor did you follow the first time use part of the manual about calibrating to fresh air/power up the LC1 for ten seconds then off ten seconds then connect lambda sensor in fresh air for 2 mins, did you do this with the sensor out of the exhaust as if it was in the exhuast shurely there could be some exhaust gasses present.
Yup all was calibrated properly in free air until the led went solid red, then when I swapped to the new sensor today I made sure to reset it in free air until it went solid red again. When you installed the sensor did you follow the first time use part of the manual about calibrating to fresh air/power up the LC1 for ten seconds then off ten seconds then connect lambda sensor in fresh air for 2 mins, did you do this with the sensor out of the exhaust as if it was in the exhuast shurely there could be some exhaust gasses present.
Regarding the ignition timing Pete, what would I be looking to do exactly?
Surely if it's running nicely now, retarding the timing would upset it a bit? I've never had much success with Innovate widebands, but i remember there's some emerald instructions for setting the LC1 up with the ECU .. have you read the instructions? There's also some fiddling around in the emerald setings to give greater resolution from the LC1 output, but my memory is hazy on that.
Just a thought...dont forget Lambda's calculate the mixture dependent only on the remaining oxygen in the the exhaust, it might be worth putting an exhast gas analyser on it to see what the HC, and CO are doing, to see if it tallys. I cant think what other faults would cause low oxygen in the exhaust however.
Mark
Mark
thenick said:
Hi all,
After getting the Emerald system up and running completely I have been left with two small issues regarding the engine running. The first was it not starting or idling properly when cold which I've sorted today by altering the stepper motor map so it now idles much happier (great satisfaction from that!). The second is the lambda reading my Innovate LC-1 is giving out which I haven't been able to solve. I thought I'd ask for a few opinions to try this weekend before I give Dave a call on Monday. So here's the story so far:
Ok on the Emerald live screen, once warm and idling I get a value of around 12.1 when it should be around 14.5. So First off, I re-calibrated the sensor and ended up with the same reading. So I then checked the analog output by plugging the lappy into the lambda controller and running the Innovate software; it reads more like 11.8. So there is a small amount of earthing interference which these things are prone to, but not much and that can be solved by re-earthing straight to the battery which I will do asap. It still reads bloody rich though so after speaking to Bill (the Innovate guy in the UK), he said it could be a broken sensor so sent me out a new one. I just plumbed that in and it reads exactly the same as the other one, so it's not the sensor.
Now the engine doesn't smell that rich but to check I started playing with the injector trim on the live adjustment screen and found that I could get the lambda reading to come down to around 14.5 by trimming the injectors back by around 7-9ms at idle by which point, the car is still idling ok, but the engine is starting to shake a bit, implying it's going to soon stall. Bumping it back up to 0 trim and it sounds much happier (where Dave mapped it). So As far as I can tell; it's not running rich, it's not got a faulty sensor or a bad earthing problem so I'm just a bit stumped! Has anyone had any experience in this area and do you have anything I could try to locate the problem?
It's not urgent as the car runs absolutely fine without the lambda signal, but I would like to run it closed loop when I have a good reliable AFR feed to the ECU so need to get it sorted. For extra information, the car is a 450 full decat running various bits and bobs and the lambda is mounted just after the join in the y-piece (which is just before the downpipe as it's an ACT system).
Nick, maybe i am missing something but at the beginning of this post did you not say you have had the car set/upAfter getting the Emerald system up and running completely I have been left with two small issues regarding the engine running. The first was it not starting or idling properly when cold which I've sorted today by altering the stepper motor map so it now idles much happier (great satisfaction from that!). The second is the lambda reading my Innovate LC-1 is giving out which I haven't been able to solve. I thought I'd ask for a few opinions to try this weekend before I give Dave a call on Monday. So here's the story so far:
Ok on the Emerald live screen, once warm and idling I get a value of around 12.1 when it should be around 14.5. So First off, I re-calibrated the sensor and ended up with the same reading. So I then checked the analog output by plugging the lappy into the lambda controller and running the Innovate software; it reads more like 11.8. So there is a small amount of earthing interference which these things are prone to, but not much and that can be solved by re-earthing straight to the battery which I will do asap. It still reads bloody rich though so after speaking to Bill (the Innovate guy in the UK), he said it could be a broken sensor so sent me out a new one. I just plumbed that in and it reads exactly the same as the other one, so it's not the sensor.
Now the engine doesn't smell that rich but to check I started playing with the injector trim on the live adjustment screen and found that I could get the lambda reading to come down to around 14.5 by trimming the injectors back by around 7-9ms at idle by which point, the car is still idling ok, but the engine is starting to shake a bit, implying it's going to soon stall. Bumping it back up to 0 trim and it sounds much happier (where Dave mapped it). So As far as I can tell; it's not running rich, it's not got a faulty sensor or a bad earthing problem so I'm just a bit stumped! Has anyone had any experience in this area and do you have anything I could try to locate the problem?
It's not urgent as the car runs absolutely fine without the lambda signal, but I would like to run it closed loop when I have a good reliable AFR feed to the ECU so need to get it sorted. For extra information, the car is a 450 full decat running various bits and bobs and the lambda is mounted just after the join in the y-piece (which is just before the downpipe as it's an ACT system).
Edited by thenick on Saturday 8th March 16:41
if so why are you playing
the Dyno operators equipment/expertise is more accurate than yours surely,or maybe i am missing something,wouldent be the 1st time
glad you have the Emerald system all singing all dancing though
Edited by That Daddy on Saturday 8th March 21:36
Sorry, yes it has been fully set up by Dave @ Emerald and mapped to a pretty steady AFR rising gently with revs (so says the dyno printout). The tweeks I've done were just to improve cold start and a couple of other bits... I was going to take it down to TVR Power on Weds to analyse the exhaust gas and compare it to the lambda readings etc, sounds like it would be worth it. Joo, yeah I have read the instructions and not found anything out of the ordinary. Plus Dave looked at it when he mapped it and said he couldn't get it to read right after checking the obvious bits. Perhaps I've got a duff controller?
I'll give Bill Shurviton and Dave a ring on Monday and see if I can shed some light on things though...
I'll give Bill Shurviton and Dave a ring on Monday and see if I can shed some light on things though...
Edited by thenick on Saturday 8th March 22:39
Nick, have you tried interrogating the controller directly rather than via the Emerald? ie using the Innovate interface and software...
Although I've not got the Emerald in yet, I have installed the LC1 and am using an XD-1 gauge... seems to be reading right as I'd expect it to according to what I understand of the stock ECU.
Supect you might not quite have the LC1 and the Emerald on the same signal levels (as Jools suggests), the analogue outputs on the controller are programmable?
Although I've not got the Emerald in yet, I have installed the LC1 and am using an XD-1 gauge... seems to be reading right as I'd expect it to according to what I understand of the stock ECU.
Supect you might not quite have the LC1 and the Emerald on the same signal levels (as Jools suggests), the analogue outputs on the controller are programmable?
I had one sensor that gave results on the LC1 that seemed credible (got richer when I increased the fuel etc) but like yours seemed to show rich by about 2AFR, I kept getting a misfire when I tried to lean it out to an indicated stoich. No amount of recalibrating would correct it. The problem went away when I replaced the sensor.
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