Emerald blues... diagnostics advice needed
Discussion
...maybe that should be greens 
Despite mine starting and running pretty well initially, I'm now getting nowhere and need some fresh pointers as I'm all out of ideas. Tonight's try with a fully charged battery, fresh (ie new) plugs (NGK B6s to try and be a bit more resistant to fouling), and what I *think* is now correct polarity on the crank sensor feed (but who can say without a 'scope) resulted in about two farts and a half-hearted chug from maybe two or three cylinders. Something is clearly not right and despite checking basics, I'm going to be going round the thing again tomorrow night with a meter. It seems to be sparking, it seems to be getting fuel (maybe too much but I have scaled it back too without success), and everything seems to be configured ok (like TW reference timing etc). I've tried replicating how it first ran but no go too.
Before I box the ECU up and send it back for a check over, anyone got any tips for eliminating the showstoppers just in case I've overlooked anything daft (amazing how you start doubting yourself)...?
Maybe clutching at straws but is anyone else running the caps between coilpack +ve and earth? Emerald make no mention of these but they do seem to be recommended on the dizzyless schematics that are around for the Rv8 'though I'm now wondering if there's an issue with them...
Really unamused with this now...
Despite mine starting and running pretty well initially, I'm now getting nowhere and need some fresh pointers as I'm all out of ideas. Tonight's try with a fully charged battery, fresh (ie new) plugs (NGK B6s to try and be a bit more resistant to fouling), and what I *think* is now correct polarity on the crank sensor feed (but who can say without a 'scope) resulted in about two farts and a half-hearted chug from maybe two or three cylinders. Something is clearly not right and despite checking basics, I'm going to be going round the thing again tomorrow night with a meter. It seems to be sparking, it seems to be getting fuel (maybe too much but I have scaled it back too without success), and everything seems to be configured ok (like TW reference timing etc). I've tried replicating how it first ran but no go too.
Before I box the ECU up and send it back for a check over, anyone got any tips for eliminating the showstoppers just in case I've overlooked anything daft (amazing how you start doubting yourself)...?
Maybe clutching at straws but is anyone else running the caps between coilpack +ve and earth? Emerald make no mention of these but they do seem to be recommended on the dizzyless schematics that are around for the Rv8 'though I'm now wondering if there's an issue with them...
Really unamused with this now...
Are the plugs wet? It is likely to be extremely rich while cold cranking and very easy to flood it.
Start with say half the fuel and clean plugs, you will probably find it fires (and backfires) occasionally, then gradually up the fuel until it comes to life. Make sure you keep the battery voltage up.
Start with say half the fuel and clean plugs, you will probably find it fires (and backfires) occasionally, then gradually up the fuel until it comes to life. Make sure you keep the battery voltage up.
GreenV8S said:
Are the plugs wet? It is likely to be extremely rich while cold cranking and very easy to flood it.
Start with say half the fuel and clean plugs, you will probably find it fires (and backfires) occasionally, then gradually up the fuel until it comes to life. Make sure you keep the battery voltage up.
Cheers Peter. Haven't noticed the plugs being 'wet' but they are certainly getting very sooty very quickly (classic over-rich fouling) so think the fuelling is a likely culprit. If this is the case, am I looking for a really very narrow sweet spot to get it going or is it a bit more approximate than that? Given the stock ECU just pumps tons of fuel in and holds the stepper wide open, I'd half expect it to fire at least before fouling up? Start with say half the fuel and clean plugs, you will probably find it fires (and backfires) occasionally, then gradually up the fuel until it comes to life. Make sure you keep the battery voltage up.
Pupp said:
Cheers Peter. Haven't noticed the plugs being 'wet' but they are certainly getting very sooty very quickly (classic over-rich fouling) so think the fuelling is a likely culprit. If this is the case, am I looking for a really very narrow sweet spot to get it going or is it a bit more approximate than that? Given the stock ECU just pumps tons of fuel in and holds the stepper wide open, I'd half expect it to fire at least before fouling up?
Cold cranking could be up to 10x richer than normal hot running, there is a stupid amount of petrol sloshing around and it doesn't take a large percentage change to push it into flooding. You will need to get the initial firing settings right and then tweak the cold running settings to keep it running while it warms up. While you're doing that it's better to be too lean than too rich. Each time you get a lean misfire it'll leave some fuel behind, so even though it misses every other cycle, or every third etc, it will probably keep running. And if it does die, it will be much less liable to foul the plugs.What's the cranking fuel algorithm - does it have a flood clear mode and does the mixture vary with throttle?
Edited by GreenV8S on Monday 14th April 00:39
GreenV8S said:
Pupp said:
Cheers Peter. Haven't noticed the plugs being 'wet' but they are certainly getting very sooty very quickly (classic over-rich fouling) so think the fuelling is a likely culprit. If this is the case, am I looking for a really very narrow sweet spot to get it going or is it a bit more approximate than that? Given the stock ECU just pumps tons of fuel in and holds the stepper wide open, I'd half expect it to fire at least before fouling up?
Cold cranking could be up to 10x richer than normal hot running, there is a stupid amount of petrol sloshing around and it doesn't take a large percentage change to push it into flooding. You will need to get the initial firing settings right and then tweak the cold running settings to keep it running while it warms up. While you're doing that it's better to be too lean than too rich. Each time you get a lean misfire it'll leave some fuel behind, so even though it misses every other cycle, or every third etc, it will probably keep running. And if it does die, it will be much less liable to foul the plugs.What's the cranking fuel algorithm - does it have a flood clear mode and does the mixture vary with throttle?
Edited by GreenV8S on Monday 14th April 00:39
Will try pulling back fuelling in all areas. Can't be any worse!
Do you know what fuel pressure and injectors you're running?
If so then check these against what the spec should be in the map you've been given by emerald.
However when I first did mine it took me about a day of cranking amd churning over and flattening the battery before I got it to fire up.
Once its started you're off as the wide band will steer you right. But getting that first fire up can take some time.
Also where's your missing tooth on the trigger wheel? and does its position match that in the software?
Finally what start-up timing are you using?
Matt
If so then check these against what the spec should be in the map you've been given by emerald.
However when I first did mine it took me about a day of cranking amd churning over and flattening the battery before I got it to fire up.
Once its started you're off as the wide band will steer you right. But getting that first fire up can take some time.
Also where's your missing tooth on the trigger wheel? and does its position match that in the software?
Finally what start-up timing are you using?
Matt
350Matt said:
Do you know what fuel pressure and injectors you're running?
If so then check these against what the spec should be in the map you've been given by emerald.
However when I first did mine it took me about a day of cranking amd churning over and flattening the battery before I got it to fire up.
Once its started you're off as the wide band will steer you right. But getting that first fire up can take some time.
Also where's your missing tooth on the trigger wheel? and does its position match that in the software?
Finally what start-up timing are you using?
Matt
afraid I don't know the inj spec save to say they are the original ones and have a greenish band around the top? Also the pressure will be 'stock' if the original reg is still working as it should... maybe in doubt. I haven't the means to measure it hereIf so then check these against what the spec should be in the map you've been given by emerald.
However when I first did mine it took me about a day of cranking amd churning over and flattening the battery before I got it to fire up.
Once its started you're off as the wide band will steer you right. But getting that first fire up can take some time.
Also where's your missing tooth on the trigger wheel? and does its position match that in the software?
Finally what start-up timing are you using?
Matt
Have been leaving the start-up timing as per the maps I've tried... does the live adjustment trim defeat that at all or is it only effective when the engine is running?
Well here's a weird twist for you... spent the afternoon wih a meter and checked every single connection and circuit in every way I could think. Especially concentrated on the injectors and coilpacks, established the positve feeds were good back to the respective relays and that they had 12v on them when cranking (ok about 11 on crank but seems healthy), that the driver circuits had good continuity back to the repective plug pins (and were wired correctly), and that there was no large resistances/breaks through the circuits concerned (ie through the respective positives to the driver pins witht eh ECU unplugged. All seemed fine.
So new plugs in, best map loaded, configured *properly* and a few chugs and farts again like last time. Odd thing was, there was some noticeable warmth on the driver's side ex manifold, paasenger side stone cold. Pull all the plugs, driver's side fouled, passenger side looking brand new and dry as a bone (ie unfired in presence of fuel).
Have checked the obvious - the 12v feed to the injectors on that side and it's (still) fine, I'm assuming the driver circuits are too as the respective 'twins' on the other side are clearly working (enough to foul the plugs anyhow).
This is a huge clue I know but short of hacking back into what I believe to be a good loom are there any 'mechanical' issues to eliminate first? Blocked fuel rail on one side? Four duff injectors coinciding?
Anyone got any matches?
So new plugs in, best map loaded, configured *properly* and a few chugs and farts again like last time. Odd thing was, there was some noticeable warmth on the driver's side ex manifold, paasenger side stone cold. Pull all the plugs, driver's side fouled, passenger side looking brand new and dry as a bone (ie unfired in presence of fuel).
Have checked the obvious - the 12v feed to the injectors on that side and it's (still) fine, I'm assuming the driver circuits are too as the respective 'twins' on the other side are clearly working (enough to foul the plugs anyhow).
This is a huge clue I know but short of hacking back into what I believe to be a good loom are there any 'mechanical' issues to eliminate first? Blocked fuel rail on one side? Four duff injectors coinciding?
Anyone got any matches?
Are your injectors batch fired? Put a diagnostic lamp across each injector and see whether it is being actuated. If some/all aren't, find out why. If they are, find out whether they're actually delivering fuel. Perhaps the fuel pressure while cranking isn't what you think, for example because some quirk of the wiring is switching the pump off when you least expect it.
Pupp - I'm having exactly the same issues as your self.
Was out there last night checking voltage to each coil pack and that each injector (batch) changed during cranking.. got plenty of fuel pressure (check it before the Emerald install).
One of the coil pack was receiving less voltage that the others .. but other than than found nothing unusual.. except crank sensor position seems to be about 10 degrees out (100 degrees BTDC instead of 90)
but I can change that in the software.
Then I though I'd check the spark again .. no spark.. and I had one last week.. talk about frustrating.
Dave Walker recommends spraying easy start in the inlet to see whether it's fuel or spark - that might work for you !
Was out there last night checking voltage to each coil pack and that each injector (batch) changed during cranking.. got plenty of fuel pressure (check it before the Emerald install).
One of the coil pack was receiving less voltage that the others .. but other than than found nothing unusual.. except crank sensor position seems to be about 10 degrees out (100 degrees BTDC instead of 90)
but I can change that in the software.
Then I though I'd check the spark again .. no spark.. and I had one last week.. talk about frustrating.
Dave Walker recommends spraying easy start in the inlet to see whether it's fuel or spark - that might work for you !
You really need a scope for diagnosing ECUs faults like this. Cost less than £50 off ebay and you need nothing fancy at all. A simple 5 or 10 Mhz two channel unit is fine.
A meter is simply not good enough. It can disturb the readings and is not sensitive to identify/check that the signals are what you expect to be. Some of the signal duration is very short and the meter will show this as a funny/low voltage and not as a short pulse. You then start thinking that there is a voltage issue when it isn't.
When I was debugging the MBE/LS1 system, the MBE software was saying everything was correct. I was told to replace this and that but it wasn't until I started to scope every signal to see what actually was happening that I found that the ECU had screwed up the dwell timing. 135ms is not a good value when you need 4-5ms. The map had got corrupted and was causing the problem. Re installed and set it up and problems went.
Key point was that everything in the system was saying this is correctly set up. The waveforms on the scope said otherwise and unless you have this visibility to confirm what is going on, it is a struggle.
Changing ECUs is not difficult until things go wrong and then it is hell.
A meter is simply not good enough. It can disturb the readings and is not sensitive to identify/check that the signals are what you expect to be. Some of the signal duration is very short and the meter will show this as a funny/low voltage and not as a short pulse. You then start thinking that there is a voltage issue when it isn't.
When I was debugging the MBE/LS1 system, the MBE software was saying everything was correct. I was told to replace this and that but it wasn't until I started to scope every signal to see what actually was happening that I found that the ECU had screwed up the dwell timing. 135ms is not a good value when you need 4-5ms. The map had got corrupted and was causing the problem. Re installed and set it up and problems went.
Key point was that everything in the system was saying this is correctly set up. The waveforms on the scope said otherwise and unless you have this visibility to confirm what is going on, it is a struggle.
Changing ECUs is not difficult until things go wrong and then it is hell.
The point is with a scope you can see the waveforms. You can check that what you are expecting is what you are expecting and it can prove that everything is happening when it should be. With a dual channel you can see when the crank is triggered and how long it takes to get a spark. This allows you to check the ignition timing. You can look at injector pulses. You can see and measure exactly what is happening. Are they triggering correctly? Are the injector times what you thought they should be?
The crazy thing is that a S/H scope is so cheap compared to the investment made in buying the ECU and the time taken to install it.
The crazy thing is that a S/H scope is so cheap compared to the investment made in buying the ECU and the time taken to install it.
I think your loom is OK, and you've wired it right.
When we started Simon's at the weekend I had to chuck loads of advance at it to get it going, and then revise the BTDC in the config to get it to run right.
The TW alignment can be spot on, but if the map is set up for one that is incorrect then the fgures will need to be adjusted.
Eaiest way is to use the live adjustments screen to whack in amounts of advance/retard to find if you can get it to run. Once you can then you can adjust accordingly.
Seems to me you know what you're doing, if you've got a spark and fuel then it should only be the timing of the 2 ?
ETA - When Dave mapped mine, I had it runnning on the RV845 map, and had had to put in a whole load of advance to get it to run over there, and it was still awful.
With a timing light we adjusted the set up and ended up with the a TW position of 58 degrees BTDC.
Convinced I did not get this wrong when installing I checked last night, it is at 90-95 degrees BTDC, so unless the timing marks on the JE new damper are worng (they're not, I checked them when I fitted it) or the crank pulley has moved (which it hasn't) the setting was changed to use the base map that was in the car.
The assumption being that if I knew exactly the TW alignment, I could revise the ignition map by the net difference and it would run fine.
Anyone using my map though (like Simon - exact same set up except cam and rebuild) needs to revise the TW position to get it to run. We got Simon's going using live adjustments to wind in the degrees of advance required and then revised the base set up in the config file, and Dave can revise properly once he get's to Emerald next week.
Preliminary results before adjusting the ignition advance were farting, burping and general inability to run . .. Now it's responsive, and incredibly loud, my ears are still ringing . . .
If I wasn't up to my eyeballs with other tuff on mine Pupp I'd happily come over to give moral support if nothing else as you're not too far from me.
I know you'll be quetioning going this route, but the difference versus the original set up is light years apart for mine, but I was only running a proprietary MA chip, rather than a fully mapped MA chip.
When we started Simon's at the weekend I had to chuck loads of advance at it to get it going, and then revise the BTDC in the config to get it to run right.
The TW alignment can be spot on, but if the map is set up for one that is incorrect then the fgures will need to be adjusted.
Eaiest way is to use the live adjustments screen to whack in amounts of advance/retard to find if you can get it to run. Once you can then you can adjust accordingly.
Seems to me you know what you're doing, if you've got a spark and fuel then it should only be the timing of the 2 ?
ETA - When Dave mapped mine, I had it runnning on the RV845 map, and had had to put in a whole load of advance to get it to run over there, and it was still awful.
With a timing light we adjusted the set up and ended up with the a TW position of 58 degrees BTDC.
Convinced I did not get this wrong when installing I checked last night, it is at 90-95 degrees BTDC, so unless the timing marks on the JE new damper are worng (they're not, I checked them when I fitted it) or the crank pulley has moved (which it hasn't) the setting was changed to use the base map that was in the car.
The assumption being that if I knew exactly the TW alignment, I could revise the ignition map by the net difference and it would run fine.
Anyone using my map though (like Simon - exact same set up except cam and rebuild) needs to revise the TW position to get it to run. We got Simon's going using live adjustments to wind in the degrees of advance required and then revised the base set up in the config file, and Dave can revise properly once he get's to Emerald next week.
Preliminary results before adjusting the ignition advance were farting, burping and general inability to run . .. Now it's responsive, and incredibly loud, my ears are still ringing . . .
If I wasn't up to my eyeballs with other tuff on mine Pupp I'd happily come over to give moral support if nothing else as you're not too far from me.
I know you'll be quetioning going this route, but the difference versus the original set up is light years apart for mine, but I was only running a proprietary MA chip, rather than a fully mapped MA chip.
Edited by Johno on Tuesday 15th April 13:56
rev-erend said:
Seems that most of us seem to have issues .. so they sure are not plug and play .. I'll not be s
gging off the std system for a while 
and most of the people here who have solved the issues seen to have wiring faults..
In fairness to Emerald, or any of the aftermarket ECU guys, none of them would say it is plug and play . .. gging off the std system for a while and most of the people here who have solved the issues seen to have wiring faults.. I chose to use someone else to make up the whole loom for me as I don't possess the skills or tools to do it, and I didn't want to face the issues of not being sure it was right.
I also chose Emerald and Paul Dove as they are both within 30 miles of me in case I did have any issues.
The results from mine versus the standard set up are significantly better driveability, responsiveness and the ability to change settings when required.
The standard system is good at what it does, and if it was more accessible i would have kept it . . .
GreenV8S said:
Are your injectors batch fired? Put a diagnostic lamp across each injector and see whether it is being actuated. If some/all aren't, find out why. If they are, find out whether they're actually delivering fuel. Perhaps the fuel pressure while cranking isn't what you think, for example because some quirk of the wiring is switching the pump off when you least expect it.
No Pete, they are grouped in four pairs at 90deg intervals which is why I suspected the +ve feed to that side as that does run to all on the bank and the counterparts on the other bank are delivering fuel.Cheers for the comments, and think I'll be investing in a 'scope. At least it's one more toy
Johno said:
rev-erend said:
Seems that most of us seem to have issues .. so they sure are not plug and play .. I'll not be sgging off the std system for a while and most of the people here who have solved the issues seen to have wiring faults..
In fairness to Emerald, or any of the aftermarket ECU guys, none of them would say it is plug and play . .. gging off the std system for a while and most of the people here who have solved the issues seen to have wiring faults.. I chose to use someone else to make up the whole loom for me as I don't possess the skills or tools to do it, and I didn't want to face the issues of not being sure it was right.
I also chose Emerald and Paul Dove as they are both within 30 miles of me in case I did have any issues.
The results from mine versus the standard set up are significantly better driveability, responsiveness and the ability to change settings when required.
The standard system is good at what it does, and if it was more accessible i would have kept it . . .
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