Broken copper brake line

[buzzsaw]

I've managed to snap the copper brake line, feeding into the nut which connects to the flexible brake hose, whilst changing the hose.

The remaining few mm of copper left in the nut has a flange on it, which seats in the nut. How do I create a new flange on the copper line? Is there a special tool needed? I take it I don't have to replace the complete copper line??

Thanks

[dilbert]

buzzsaw said:

I've managed to snap the copper brake line, feeding into the nut which connects to the flexible brake hose, whilst changing the hose.

The remaining few mm of copper left in the nut has a flange on it, which seats in the nut. How do I create a new flange on the copper line? Is there a special tool needed? I take it I don't have to replace the complete copper line??

Thanks

You need a tool, and a spare length of pipe to practice on or extend the existing pipe if it has become too short. In the latter case you'll also need fittings to join the old pipe, cut back, to the new pipe.

http://www.sealey.co.uk/PLPageBuilder.asp?gotonode...

The tool I have shown, is just to give an idea. The thing is that you have to be moderately careful that you get a tool which will make the right seat profile, in the right sized pipe.

Edited by dilbert on Sunday 15th June 15:05

[buzzsaw]

dilbert said:

buzzsaw said:

I've managed to snap the copper brake line, feeding into the nut which connects to the flexible brake hose, whilst changing the hose.

The remaining few mm of copper left in the nut has a flange on it, which seats in the nut. How do I create a new flange on the copper line? Is there a special tool needed? I take it I don't have to replace the complete copper line??

Thanks

You need a tool, and a spare length of pipe to practice on or extend the existing pipe if it has become too short. In the latter case you'll also need fittings to join the old pipe, cut back, to the new pipe.

http://www.sealey.co.uk/PLPageBuilder.asp?gotonode...

The tool I have shown, is just to give an idea. The thing is that you have to be moderately careful that you get a tool which will make the right seat profile, in the right sized pipe.

Edited by dilbert on Sunday 15th June 15:05

Would that kit work in situ on the car?

[AntonyJ]

Which corner of the car are we talking?
Either end should be possible,depending on the tool.

Some of the tools require a winding action, some of the more expensive require just a clamping action.

Friendly with any local mechanics?

[buzzsaw]

AntonyJ said:

Which corner of the car are we talking?
Either end should be possible,depending on the tool.

Some of the tools require a winding action, some of the more expensive require just a clamping action.

Friendly with any local mechanics?

Nearside front. I was looking at the Sealey AK5063 which specifies ideal for use on vehicle, but if the other (cheaper) options can work on vehicle then I would go that route.

Edited by buzzsaw on Sunday 15th June 16:24

Edited by buzzsaw on Sunday 15th June 16:33

[AntonyJ]

You should be in luck ,as you may be able to get a the pipe from the engine bay.

[Ribol]

A word of warning, some OE brake pipe is much harder than the aftermarket bundy/copper pipe you buy to make your own brake pipes. Not sure what TVR used but if it is the hard stuff then any tool you buy may not work on it. If that is the case then you are better off making a new pipe and replacing the whole thing.

There are only two types of flares used on brake pipe ends, convex and concave, the pipe should be 3/16". The unions can be re-used if not rounded off in any way.

[GreenV8S]

Ribol said:

A word of warning, some OE brake pipe is much harder than the aftermarket bundy/copper pipe you buy to make your own brake pipes.

That would be cunifer (copper/nickel/iron alloy).

[dilbert]

buzzsaw said:

dilbert said:

buzzsaw said:

I've managed to snap the copper brake line, feeding into the nut which connects to the flexible brake hose, whilst changing the hose.

The remaining few mm of copper left in the nut has a flange on it, which seats in the nut. How do I create a new flange on the copper line? Is there a special tool needed? I take it I don't have to replace the complete copper line??

Thanks

You need a tool, and a spare length of pipe to practice on or extend the existing pipe if it has become too short. In the latter case you'll also need fittings to join the old pipe, cut back, to the new pipe.

http://www.sealey.co.uk/PLPageBuilder.asp?gotonode...

The tool I have shown, is just to give an idea. The thing is that you have to be moderately careful that you get a tool which will make the right seat profile, in the right sized pipe.

Edited by dilbert on Sunday 15th June 15:05

Would that kit work in situ on the car?

Possibly. I guess it all depends how much space there is!!

I don't know too much about the profile thing though. What I do know is that it's critical, and some of the tools only make one of the two sorts of flare. The ones on my car (different from yours) are convex, but originally and they looked like proper soldered olives. I'm not sure if that is the same as the "double type".

Certainly the concave ones are relatively easy to do, I'd have thought.

We have a friendly roving mechanic down the road, and I needed some a while back. It was cheaper to get him to make them, than buy the tool. So the soldered olives were replaced with a flare that he made. Fortunately close inspection revealed that the profile presented to the seat inside the caliper was pretty close, so all was fine. I think the nose on his unions were ever so slightly different from the original ones, which were square and made the shape on the back edge of the (now non-existent) olive less important.

The really important thing, especially with brake pipes (and fuel pipes), is that if you have any doubts about the compatibility (form and fit) of the profiles, try a different approach. It's a detail you don't want to get wrong!!!

Edited by dilbert on Monday 16th June 00:58

[Ribol]

GreenV8S said:

Ribol said:

A word of warning, some OE brake pipe is much harder than the aftermarket bundy/copper pipe you buy to make your own brake pipes.

That would be cunifer (copper/nickel/iron alloy).

Thanks for that - all I know is that every time I tried to flare one neither machine we had(SP pro ones) wouldn't touch them, too hard.

[Ribol]

dilbert said:

I don't know too much about the profile thing though. What I do know is that it's critical, and some of the tools only make one of the two sorts of flare. The ones on my car (different from yours) are convex, but originally and they looked like proper soldered olives. I'm not sure if that is the same as the "double type".

Certainly the concave ones are relatively easy to do, I'd have thought.

Generally it is one operation to make a convex flare, the second operation converts it to a concave flare. See OE material warning above.

[dilbert]

Ribol said:

dilbert said:

I don't know too much about the profile thing though. What I do know is that it's critical, and some of the tools only make one of the two sorts of flare. The ones on my car (different from yours) are convex, but originally and they looked like proper soldered olives. I'm not sure if that is the same as the "double type".

Certainly the concave ones are relatively easy to do, I'd have thought.

Generally it is one operation to make a convex flare, the second operation converts it to a concave flare. See OE material warning above.

Surely (shirley) it's the other way around. To get the concave end, I'd have thought you drive a wedge into the end of the pipe. To get the convex end presumably you then fold the concave end back on it's self?

Edited by dilbert on Monday 16th June 09:25

[buzzsaw]

Thanks for the advice guys.

I've ordered a Sealey AK5063 and a mini pipe cutter. Hopefully these will do the job.

Another question....how does the flared end seal in the union? I can't see that the screw fit of the brake hose presses against it when tightened?

Edited by buzzsaw on Monday 16th June 10:25

[dilbert]

buzzsaw said:

Thanks for the advice guys.

I've ordered a Sealey AK5063 and a mini pipe cutter. Hopefully these will do the job.

Another question....how does the flared end seal in the union? I can't see that the screw fit of the brake hose presses against it when tightened?

Edited by buzzsaw on Monday 16th June 10:25

The end of the pipe should somehow get sandwiched between the nut and the body of the thing that the pipe goes into.

If the pipe end is flared (i.e. no olive) then the nose of the nut should have the same shape as the seat of the body, unless the form on the pipe is somehow rolled back. If there is an olive (a separate item somehow fixed to the pipe, and is the part that gets sandwiched), then the nose of the nut should match the back of the olive, and the seat in the body should match the nose of the olive.

You are unlikely to be moving towards a solution that uses an olive. The reason I mention it, is that if you already had an olive, then you will probably not be able to reuse the nut. Typically an olive will have greater length than the thickness of the pipe wall flared out, and have an external taper on one or both ends.

That means that in an olive type system, the profile on the nut doesn't usually match that of the seat, as it would in a flared system. Also because the olive is generally longer than the thickness of the pipe wall, the nut tends to be shorter. This might be why your nut does not look like it will seat.

I happened across this;
http://www.brake-pipe.co.uk

Edited by dilbert on Monday 16th June 11:03

[Ribol]

dilbert said:

Ribol said:

dilbert said:

I don't know too much about the profile thing though. What I do know is that it's critical, and some of the tools only make one of the two sorts of flare. The ones on my car (different from yours) are convex, but originally and they looked like proper soldered olives. I'm not sure if that is the same as the "double type".

Certainly the concave ones are relatively easy to do, I'd have thought.

Generally it is one operation to make a convex flare, the second operation converts it to a concave flare. See OE material warning above.

Surely (shirley) it's the other way around. To get the concave end, I'd have thought you drive a wedge into the end of the pipe. To get the convex end presumably you then fold the concave end back on it's self?

No, the OP1 tool makes it what I call convex, so looking at the pipe side on you see a dome. The OP2 tool pushes the domed bit back in making it concave, so looking at the pipe side on it looks like a flat end.
Hope that makes sense?

[Ribol]

Not sure where all this talk of olives has come from, olives have never been used on brake pipes and shouldn't be.

[dilbert]

Ribol said:

Not sure where all this talk of olives has come from, olives have never been used on brake pipes and shouldn't be.

The pipes I took of my old car, had what I could only describe as olives on them. When you looked at the end of the pipe, you could see the difference in colour between the pipe and an outer ring of a different material.

The back edge, was square, and the front edge (nose) domed. In total, the whole thing was about 1/8" thick.

Maybe it just looked like an olive. Twas definitely different from the replacement which had a clear one piece "formed" end on the pipe.

[Ribol]

dilbert said:

Ribol said:

Not sure where all this talk of olives has come from, olives have never been used on brake pipes and shouldn't be.

The pipes I took of my old car, had what I could only describe as olives on them. When you looked at the end of the pipe, you could see the difference in colour between the pipe and an outer ring of a different material.

The back edge, was square, and the front edge (nose) domed. In total, the whole thing was about 1/8" thick.

Maybe it just looked like an olive. Twas definitely different from the replacement which had a clear one piece "formed" end on the pipe.

Some brake pipes are plated on the outside, the end could look two colours when formed. I have never seen a brake pipe OE or aftermarket in any size other than 3/16". Nor have I ever seen a brake pipe using olives.
If a pipe with olives came loose it would blow the pipe through the olive. If a pipe came loose with flared ends it would just leak.

[That Daddy]

Ribol said:

dilbert said:

Ribol said:

Not sure where all this talk of olives has come from, olives have never been used on brake pipes and shouldn't be.

The pipes I took of my old car, had what I could only describe as olives on them. When you looked at the end of the pipe, you could see the difference in colour between the pipe and an outer ring of a different material.

The back edge, was square, and the front edge (nose) domed. In total, the whole thing was about 1/8" thick.

Maybe it just looked like an olive. Twas definitely different from the replacement which had a clear one piece "formed" end on the pipe.

Some brake pipes are plated on the outside, the end could look two colours when formed. I have never seen a brake pipe OE or aftermarket in any size other than 3/16". Nor have I ever seen a brake pipe using olives.
If a pipe with olives came loose it would blow the pipe through the olive. If a pipe came loose with flared ends it would just leak.

yep no Olives

[dilbert]

http://www.rmahc.com/brakes.html

Here's a nice article that explains things well, and with a greater degree of knowledge than I have.

Pictures unashamedly nicked from OpelGT.com! (Sorry guys)



Research reveals that it's the ISO bubble (metric) type that I have. I would swear though that the original ones I had were olives. I think there's more than the four types in the original article, if you're being strict about things.

Edited by dilbert on Monday 16th June 17:30