Strange happenings – is this “hot start”
Discussion
Driving back through London on Saturday, and stuck in heavy traffic, I turned off the engine while waiting for the traffic to move again, but the engine would not start. I wasn’t a case of starter motor would turn, but the engine would not fire, it was completely dead. I couldn’t hear the fuel pump prime either.
It was as if the immobiliser was immobilising, so I tried looking and unlocking the car using the “beeper”, also tried the immobiliser key/chip in the socket and still nothing.
The hazard lights were doing funny things too – like all staying on permanently, and not turning off when I pressed the hazard button. It was raining, and had been raining the day before, and I wonder if the rain has a part to play in this causing damp connections somewhere?
After all the traffic at one of the busiest junctions in London started hooting with the hold up, some kindly gents pushed the car into a side road. I tried starting her again 5 mins later, and she fired up fine, as if there was never a problem – apart that the led on the radio panel was flashing (which I don’t think normally happens).
The only time this has happened before was on the Thunder in the Tunnels day, when pretty much exactly the same thing happened, when we parked up one time, she just wouldn’t even try to start. Hazards permanently on, kept on tiring, then 5 mins later fired up fine. Was damp that day too.
So any advice much appreciated on how to track down the cause of this embarrassing problem, or is this a hot start problem manifesting? But always imagined with the hotstart problem that the engine would turn over but just not fire, or am I wrong here?
It was as if the immobiliser was immobilising, so I tried looking and unlocking the car using the “beeper”, also tried the immobiliser key/chip in the socket and still nothing.
The hazard lights were doing funny things too – like all staying on permanently, and not turning off when I pressed the hazard button. It was raining, and had been raining the day before, and I wonder if the rain has a part to play in this causing damp connections somewhere?
After all the traffic at one of the busiest junctions in London started hooting with the hold up, some kindly gents pushed the car into a side road. I tried starting her again 5 mins later, and she fired up fine, as if there was never a problem – apart that the led on the radio panel was flashing (which I don’t think normally happens).
The only time this has happened before was on the Thunder in the Tunnels day, when pretty much exactly the same thing happened, when we parked up one time, she just wouldn’t even try to start. Hazards permanently on, kept on tiring, then 5 mins later fired up fine. Was damp that day too.
So any advice much appreciated on how to track down the cause of this embarrassing problem, or is this a hot start problem manifesting? But always imagined with the hotstart problem that the engine would turn over but just not fire, or am I wrong here?
f@-pots said:
Mine did it stuck in Cambridge traffic , embarrassing or what! No damp problems tho' , my pump was priming ets just nowt from the starter till it cooled down , then everything as normal.
Nick............
Yes Nick, most embarrasing - busses diverting round and everything. Nick............
So your starter motor wasn't even trying to turn either? Does this mean we both have the hot start problem? And if so, is there a cheap fix? Have heard of hot start kits.
scotty_d said:
sounds like a alarm/immob related problem
That was my first thought, have a feeling the alarm doesn't actually work, and haven't found where the alarm is located yet. Edited by scotty_d on Tuesday 16th December 12:36
But why would this happen intermittently? Was it anything to do with the damp/rain or hot engine? - Maybe it's just a TVR thing.
Any ideas of things to check to confirm if this is the case, and if so is there anything that can be done, save replacing the alarm?
And anyone ever have hazard lights permanently on i.e. on and not flashing, and being unable to turn them off?
Ultimately, the 'hot start' problem is as a result of the degradation of the immobiliser over time.
The hot start kit is in effect, just buying you a stay of execution. However, if the starter is cranking, I would say it is not an immobiliser issue.
This problem (associated with the rain) could, (repeat - could) be due to an issue with the 100 amp fuse.
If the problem occurs again, you need to do the obvious checks - sparks and fuel.
Good luck
Nick
The hot start kit is in effect, just buying you a stay of execution. However, if the starter is cranking, I would say it is not an immobiliser issue.
This problem (associated with the rain) could, (repeat - could) be due to an issue with the 100 amp fuse.
If the problem occurs again, you need to do the obvious checks - sparks and fuel.
Good luck
Nick
Do you have the later dash with the led by the light switch. if so is this changing state when you press the alarm fob button. Also look down in the passenger foot well by battery look for two metal relays in the loom (not on the fuse board) there should be two exactly the same try swapping them around as these are ignition switched and supply power to fuel pump, and the 12 volt feed to the engine bits. And see if anything changes.
nawarne said:
Ultimately, the 'hot start' problem is as a result of the degradation of the immobiliser over time.
The hot start kit is in effect, just buying you a stay of execution. However, if the starter is cranking, I would say it is not an immobiliser issue.
This problem (associated with the rain) could, (repeat - could) be due to an issue with the 100 amp fuse.
If the problem occurs again, you need to do the obvious checks - sparks and fuel.
Good luck
Nick
The starter was not cranking, nor could I hear the fuel pump coming on. But hazard lights were doing strange things.The hot start kit is in effect, just buying you a stay of execution. However, if the starter is cranking, I would say it is not an immobiliser issue.
This problem (associated with the rain) could, (repeat - could) be due to an issue with the 100 amp fuse.
If the problem occurs again, you need to do the obvious checks - sparks and fuel.
Good luck
Nick
...5 mins later, everything back to normal.
chrispitman said:
Do you have the later dash with the led by the light switch. if so is this changing state when you press the alarm fob button. Also look down in the passenger foot well by battery look for two metal relays in the loom (not on the fuse board) there should be two exactly the same try swapping them around as these are ignition switched and supply power to fuel pump, and the 12 volt feed to the engine bits. And see if anything changes.
Yes I think I have the later type dash (1997 car). There is an LED (but think it's on the radio panel, can't check now as am at work), the LED changes it's flashing with key fob normally, but seemed to be doing out of the ordinary things when it wouldn't start. Also, when the engine did come back to life, the LED was on or flashing, and I'm sure that it's normally off when the car is being driven.Thanks for the advice, will try and check relays tonight.
i had a similar thing happen 2 days running last year, ironically the second time the car was on the way for a service. The first time was after stopping at lights, the engine cut out and would not start. Eventually after cooling down it started. The second time was after sitting for half an hour at an accident. The garage could not find anything wrong.
It was in the winter so I didnt think of overheating but later in the year when it became relatively warm and the temperature gauge packed up I checked the whole cooling system out and I think I found the answer. What was happening was that the thermostat had stuck closed and the fans were not coming on this caused an overtemp situation. The ECU temperature sensor then shut the ECU down. Once everything cooled down the ECU was working again and the engine started.
I may be talking complete shoemenders but after rebuilding the radiator and fitting the temperature sensor mod I have not had another problem with cutting out and not starting.
It was in the winter so I didnt think of overheating but later in the year when it became relatively warm and the temperature gauge packed up I checked the whole cooling system out and I think I found the answer. What was happening was that the thermostat had stuck closed and the fans were not coming on this caused an overtemp situation. The ECU temperature sensor then shut the ECU down. Once everything cooled down the ECU was working again and the engine started.
I may be talking complete shoemenders but after rebuilding the radiator and fitting the temperature sensor mod I have not had another problem with cutting out and not starting.
Sounds very much like an electrical problem of the best type....intermittent!!!!! Most likely an alarm issue. We get quite a few cars coming in with similar problems...wont crank, wont inject, no spark and often accompanied by wierd electrical issues and 99% of the time it's the alarm/immobiliser that's crapped out
Teetertank said:
nawarne said:
Ultimately, the 'hot start' problem is as a result of the degradation of the immobiliser over time.
The hot start kit is in effect, just buying you a stay of execution. However, if the starter is cranking, I would say it is not an immobiliser issue.
This problem (associated with the rain) could, (repeat - could) be due to an issue with the 100 amp fuse.
If the problem occurs again, you need to do the obvious checks - sparks and fuel.
Good luck
Nick
The starter was not cranking, nor could I hear the fuel pump coming on. But hazard lights were doing strange things.The hot start kit is in effect, just buying you a stay of execution. However, if the starter is cranking, I would say it is not an immobiliser issue.
This problem (associated with the rain) could, (repeat - could) be due to an issue with the 100 amp fuse.
If the problem occurs again, you need to do the obvious checks - sparks and fuel.
Good luck
Nick
...5 mins later, everything back to normal.
The so called "hot-start" problem is NOT related to degredation of the immoboliser! And if the starter motor isn't operating there's no point in checking there's a spark at the plugs either! But if the fuel pump wasn't priming when you pressed the button on the key (and the starter motor wasn't operating) then it's almost certainly an immobiliser issue - except for the odd hazzard lights.Next time it happens, try banging your hand under the dash on the passenger's side and see it it clears it. Relays do stick and can then work after a few minutes and it sounds as though this could at least be what's happening wth your immoboliser which is situated behind the dash on that side.
Nick.
Defo sounds like an intermittent electrical fault. What does the "hot start kit" comprise of??? I think your best option is to get the multimeter out and start testing all relevant circuits for continuity especially when the looms is wiggled about. Are the contacts of the two metal relays that hang off the loom clean? If they've "greened" over vinegar will clean them up. Basically start from the begining (or end) and work thru' everything methodically...with minimal harsh language when you try and check the main body earths in the gearbox tunnel (1st job)
Some good advice coming through - thanks people.
Am comforted that it seems a hot start kit is not on the cards.
Didn't manage to check the relays last night - had to remove the swirl pot which amazingly sprung a leak - I need to stop being surprised at things like water start spraying out of a sealed metal canister. Can only laugh that the car lets out all the water that she's supposed to keep in, and lets in all the water that she's supposed to keep out - have a mobile pond behind the drivers seat after long weekend of rain. So tonight's job will be bailing it all out.
Will have a go at wiggling some wires with the multimeter out.
Thanks again for all advice.
Am comforted that it seems a hot start kit is not on the cards.
Didn't manage to check the relays last night - had to remove the swirl pot which amazingly sprung a leak - I need to stop being surprised at things like water start spraying out of a sealed metal canister. Can only laugh that the car lets out all the water that she's supposed to keep in, and lets in all the water that she's supposed to keep out - have a mobile pond behind the drivers seat after long weekend of rain. So tonight's job will be bailing it all out.
nikman said:
Next time it happens, try banging your hand under the dash on the passenger's side and see it it clears it. Relays do stick and can then work after a few minutes and it sounds as though this could at least be what's happening wth your immoboliser which is situated behind the dash on that side.
Nick.
I was thinking repeatedly banging my head on dash may be more appropriate? Nick.
Will have a go at wiggling some wires with the multimeter out.
Thanks again for all advice.
Hi Hugo
Sounds like you need to treat the roof .
The roofs leak quite badly through the fabric panel behind the doors if they are are not waterproofed regularly.
I use Auto Glym Cabriolet Treatment. myself ( around £20 ) but others use something like Fibseal ( may not be the correct name). It sorted my leaking issues out.
Sounds like an immobiliser issue . Might be worth diconnecting the battery to fully reset it for a 30 seconds if you haven't already.
Trevor
Sounds like you need to treat the roof .
The roofs leak quite badly through the fabric panel behind the doors if they are are not waterproofed regularly.
I use Auto Glym Cabriolet Treatment. myself ( around £20 ) but others use something like Fibseal ( may not be the correct name). It sorted my leaking issues out.
Sounds like an immobiliser issue . Might be worth diconnecting the battery to fully reset it for a 30 seconds if you haven't already.
Trevor
Yes, didn't realise it was leaking so badly. I have a cover which I sometimes use, but didn't realise how badly it needs it. Have a can of Fabsil on my shopping list now.
Stupid question, and off topic I know, but when people talk about treating the "roof" do they just mean the fabric quarter behind the roof panel, or does this include the solid (removable) roof panel as well. As to me it's solid so shouldn't need waterproofing, but does have the fabric cover on which may allow water to trickle down inside? Also any good tips for drying out the interior - the water level is just above the carpet pile. Thinking of getting the girl friend round tonight, under orders she must bring her hair dryer with her.
No harm in disconnecting the battery, but over the last few weeks, the battery has been disconnected a number of times, and for extended periods, and this problem happened since then.
Stupid question, and off topic I know, but when people talk about treating the "roof" do they just mean the fabric quarter behind the roof panel, or does this include the solid (removable) roof panel as well. As to me it's solid so shouldn't need waterproofing, but does have the fabric cover on which may allow water to trickle down inside? Also any good tips for drying out the interior - the water level is just above the carpet pile. Thinking of getting the girl friend round tonight, under orders she must bring her hair dryer with her.
No harm in disconnecting the battery, but over the last few weeks, the battery has been disconnected a number of times, and for extended periods, and this problem happened since then.
The best way to do the roof, is to clean, colour & then seal IMHO. If yours has leaked it has lost the protection that keeps dirt etc out of the fabric. Subsequent treatments can done by just a good wash & waterproofing in the knowledge that you have not let it go 'too far' 
You need to do both the roof panel and rear hoop, otherwise you may well end up with a colour mismatch - the panel needs to be off the car.
If your car is so wet it might be easier to remove the seats, 4 bolts through the tub each side. Then you can pull the carpets out to dry indoors.
You need to do both the roof panel and rear hoop, otherwise you may well end up with a colour mismatch - the panel needs to be off the car.If your car is so wet it might be easier to remove the seats, 4 bolts through the tub each side. Then you can pull the carpets out to dry indoors.
[/quote]
The so called "hot-start" problem is NOT related to degredation of the immoboliser! And if the starter motor isn't operating there's no point in checking there's a spark at the plugs either! But if the fuel pump wasn't priming when you pressed the button on the key (and the starter motor wasn't operating) then it's almost certainly an immobiliser issue - except for the odd hazzard lights.Next time it happens, try banging your hand under the dash on the passenger's side and see it it clears it. Relays do stick and can then work after a few minutes and it sounds as though this could at least be what's happening wth your immoboliser which is situated behind the dash on that side.
Nick.
[/quote]
Nick - I've just had my immobiliser module replaced by Carl Baker. My symptoms were being unable to crank the engine on the starter having just gone to the ATM to get some dosh.
Carl advised that the immobiliser sees/switches the full starter solenoid current when you go for an engine start. It is this current that effectively 'fries' (over time)the immobiliser module. Thus when hot the immobiliser internals will not permit cranking of the engine. At least that's how I understood the 'hot start issue'.
Nick
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