Full Engine Management System for Chimaera
Discussion
Hi
I've recently bought my first TVR, a Chimaera 4.0HC Although there is much to say (which i will do in due course) i would like to know if anyone has replaced the current Lucas system with a fully Managed system such as that from http://www.lloydspecialistdevelopments.co.uk/
The standard system is basic at best and cannot really cope. The usual cold start, very rough idle low rev response etc. As i understand it the current ECU cannot change timing. In general the Chimaera could have been SO much more than it is. A new FULLY mapped system should start cleanly hot/cold, instant smooth idle etc. Can also be dual mapped for instance for performance or economy etc
Cheers
Graeme
I've recently bought my first TVR, a Chimaera 4.0HC Although there is much to say (which i will do in due course) i would like to know if anyone has replaced the current Lucas system with a fully Managed system such as that from http://www.lloydspecialistdevelopments.co.uk/
The standard system is basic at best and cannot really cope. The usual cold start, very rough idle low rev response etc. As i understand it the current ECU cannot change timing. In general the Chimaera could have been SO much more than it is. A new FULLY mapped system should start cleanly hot/cold, instant smooth idle etc. Can also be dual mapped for instance for performance or economy etc
Cheers
Graeme
captaintact said:
Hi
I've recently bought my first TVR, a Chimaera 4.0HC Although there is much to say (which i will do in due course) i would like to know if anyone has replaced the current Lucas system with a fully Managed system such as that from http://www.lloydspecialistdevelopments.co.uk/
The standard system is basic at best and cannot really cope. The usual cold start, very rough idle low rev response etc. As i understand it the current ECU cannot change timing. In general the Chimaera could have been SO much more than it is. A new FULLY mapped system should start cleanly hot/cold, instant smooth idle etc. Can also be dual mapped for instance for performance or economy etc
Cheers
Graeme
Yes lots of us but don't underestimate the lucus stuff its not as bad as you are making out,I've recently bought my first TVR, a Chimaera 4.0HC Although there is much to say (which i will do in due course) i would like to know if anyone has replaced the current Lucas system with a fully Managed system such as that from http://www.lloydspecialistdevelopments.co.uk/
The standard system is basic at best and cannot really cope. The usual cold start, very rough idle low rev response etc. As i understand it the current ECU cannot change timing. In general the Chimaera could have been SO much more than it is. A new FULLY mapped system should start cleanly hot/cold, instant smooth idle etc. Can also be dual mapped for instance for performance or economy etc
Cheers
Graeme
The way that post was written it sounds like you have a vested interest in LSD,
My appologies if you don't
Hi
No i have no interest in that or any other company. I just have been searching the net and finding out more about my TVR and the various servicing and option available. I'm sure there are many companies offering full engine mapping systems and i will be pleased to hear from anyone with experience in this. My memory is that the standard Lucas system was always rough in all Rover V8s cars of yesteryear. A fully controlled and mapped system should make this V8 smoother, more (or less) powerful as required, and indeed potentially more economical in general use. Many of the same general problems seem to come up when i search. ALL of which have fixes to potentially make the Chimaera a much better car. I would like to make it more "User friendly" and am not really interested in track racing or driving like an idiot on any roads, i just love the look of the car. :0)
No i have no interest in that or any other company. I just have been searching the net and finding out more about my TVR and the various servicing and option available. I'm sure there are many companies offering full engine mapping systems and i will be pleased to hear from anyone with experience in this. My memory is that the standard Lucas system was always rough in all Rover V8s cars of yesteryear. A fully controlled and mapped system should make this V8 smoother, more (or less) powerful as required, and indeed potentially more economical in general use. Many of the same general problems seem to come up when i search. ALL of which have fixes to potentially make the Chimaera a much better car. I would like to make it more "User friendly" and am not really interested in track racing or driving like an idiot on any roads, i just love the look of the car. :0)
captaintact said:
The standard system is basic at best and cannot really cope.
Well it has been managing to cope on most RV8 TVRs for many years and no doubt will continue to do so.Not saying it can't be improved on, but I wouldn't assume it needs binning to get a car to run properly, most do if maintained properly.
A very pedantic and protective bunch on here! Haha. Stay cool. Indeed a very capable car in general designed by people who know a lot more than i do. I'm perhaps i'm in a very small minority in that i don't want to make it faster, louder, burn up everything else on the road etc. DARE I SAY IT............ i would like to make a "softer" everyday version. New management system to have easy smooth low speed response in ANY weather, softer suspension, and....wait for it.....a much quieter exhaust! I can just hear the calls of heresy and that a few hardened TVR fans will have had to sit down and catch their breath...haha. Many of the other "problems" are electrical. If one doesn't want to use it on a race day then duel engine mapping can give best of both worlds at the flick of a switch.
My own Chimaera has a full TVR service history. Often the niggles in these cars are forgiven because they were handmade and no one wants a mass produced German car etc. Well.......actually the only difference is that far fewer are made. Hand built should ensure much higher quality! Quirky...yes....it's a shame most of the problems were never ironed out gradually as everyone of them could quite easily be sorted.
My own Chimaera has a full TVR service history. Often the niggles in these cars are forgiven because they were handmade and no one wants a mass produced German car etc. Well.......actually the only difference is that far fewer are made. Hand built should ensure much higher quality! Quirky...yes....it's a shame most of the problems were never ironed out gradually as everyone of them could quite easily be sorted.
captaintact said:
A very pedantic and protective bunch on here! Haha. Stay cool. Indeed a very capable car in general designed by people who know a lot more than i do. I'm perhaps i'm in a very small minority in that i don't want to make it faster, louder, burn up everything else on the road etc. DARE I SAY IT............ i would like to make a "softer" everyday version. New management system to have easy smooth low speed response in ANY weather, softer suspension, and....wait for it.....a much quieter exhaust! I can just hear the calls of heresy and that a few hardened TVR fans will have had to sit down and catch their breath...haha. Many of the other "problems" are electrical. If one doesn't want to use it on a race day then duel engine mapping can give best of both worlds at the flick of a switch.
My own Chimaera has a full TVR service history. Often the niggles in these cars are forgiven because they were handmade and no one wants a mass produced German car etc. Well.......actually the only difference is that far fewer are made. Hand built should ensure much higher quality! Quirky...yes....it's a shame most of the problems were never ironed out gradually as everyone of them could quite easily be sorted.
I Hear what your saying, There is nothing wrong with tweaking one's own and making it more reliable and personal which ever direction you choose, which is exactly what I'm doing. Albeit in completely the opposite direction My own Chimaera has a full TVR service history. Often the niggles in these cars are forgiven because they were handmade and no one wants a mass produced German car etc. Well.......actually the only difference is that far fewer are made. Hand built should ensure much higher quality! Quirky...yes....it's a shame most of the problems were never ironed out gradually as everyone of them could quite easily be sorted.
I also like the idea of switchable maps so you don't have to drive it like you stole it all the time,And when the wife drives it
Edited by slideways on Sunday 21st November 01:36
The 14cux is pretty capable, in particular as it uses an AFM to measure the actual air the engine uses, unlike the much cruder throttle position that the Lloyd system uses at it most basic, although I do believe it can be upgraded with a mass air pressure system, which is better, but still poorer than an AFM. The biggest problem with the 14CUX is its designed to meet strict emission limits for the American market, and when fitted to the TVR this can cause a lumpy idle and poor low speed response. If your remove this limitation and run in non catalyst mode its much better, which in effect is what you are doing by fitting an after market system, where you set the AF ratio to suit the engines requirements, not what comes out of the tail pipe. In a past life the 14CUX was perfectly capable of being chipped and tuned way beyond anything asked of it today. It also already has switchable mapping, and I have this working with a switch under the dash quite happily. Of course nether the 14CUX or low cost EFI after market systems have the ignition triggers and coil packs as standard, so these are upgrades in all cases, which is where the biggest gains are to be made. The biggest issue with the 14CUX is lack of ability to chip it easily, but dont think for one moment just because you fit a modern ECU unit you will suddenly gain 20BHP, or 10MPG!
SILICONE KID said:
Before and after..Its now producing 339bhp with the thermal insulator a bit more advance and a few tweaks.
[IMG]
Not again Daz,[IMG]
Edited by SILICONE KID on Sunday 21st November 13:45
the 14CUX plot has something horribly wrong with it (hardware wise), it would never fuel that badly otherwise, even with the fuel map not being spot on. Not a fair comparison.Edited by blitzracing on Sunday 21st November 14:28
Thanks guys
I appreciate the replies which are all very interesting. Although i've long been a car fan in general and have long wanted a TVR i appreciate that all of you will know a great deal more so i'm sure some of my comments appear naive.
Thanks blitzracing. Re the Full management option i had always thought of replacing more than just the ECU as i know that in itself the Lucas module is capable. My understanding is that the limitation are the lack of sensors on this "standard" RV8. EG the timing is inflexible as it still uses the basic weights and vacuum advance. On these tuned engines with larger valve lift, the vacuum advance is poor and basic at best. Replacing the distributor is best. As with replacing Dist cap and coil etc. Also taking the timing directly from the flywheel much reduces timing errors through wear. The new system could take all sensor readings and make for considerably more efficient running whether tuned for sport or economy, with the option of both in a switched ECU. It would not matter whether it had a cat or not as could be tuned with exhaust gasses fully taken care of in any market. I take your point re the American market but surely the effect on the British market re lumpy running at low speed was because the older current system could not FULL remap because of timing etc. In any case and no matter which aftermarket system would be used (i stress i have no interest in Lloyds as they were simply found when searching in internet for garages to service my TVR) the improvement in starting, smooth responsive running and reliablity and economy if so wished in any tuning guise would surely be welcome. Even TVR in their own straight SIX engines are fully mapped i believe.
My criticism is not of the Lucas system per se, just that the car was never developed/refined to iron out things.
Although my own Chimaera has a full TVR service history, my current main problem is it feels like there is no "choke" being appled when cold and it's sometimes very cold! When pressing the accel the engine almost stalls unless coaxing it to over 2000 + rpm. When it is at normal temp all is good. As the Chimaera's don't use a cold injector, the ECU increases the fuel injection time to compensate when it senses low temperature i believe. Any ideas what and where to check guys to save me money in the garage until service time.
Thanks in advance
I appreciate the replies which are all very interesting. Although i've long been a car fan in general and have long wanted a TVR i appreciate that all of you will know a great deal more so i'm sure some of my comments appear naive.
Thanks blitzracing. Re the Full management option i had always thought of replacing more than just the ECU as i know that in itself the Lucas module is capable. My understanding is that the limitation are the lack of sensors on this "standard" RV8. EG the timing is inflexible as it still uses the basic weights and vacuum advance. On these tuned engines with larger valve lift, the vacuum advance is poor and basic at best. Replacing the distributor is best. As with replacing Dist cap and coil etc. Also taking the timing directly from the flywheel much reduces timing errors through wear. The new system could take all sensor readings and make for considerably more efficient running whether tuned for sport or economy, with the option of both in a switched ECU. It would not matter whether it had a cat or not as could be tuned with exhaust gasses fully taken care of in any market. I take your point re the American market but surely the effect on the British market re lumpy running at low speed was because the older current system could not FULL remap because of timing etc. In any case and no matter which aftermarket system would be used (i stress i have no interest in Lloyds as they were simply found when searching in internet for garages to service my TVR) the improvement in starting, smooth responsive running and reliablity and economy if so wished in any tuning guise would surely be welcome. Even TVR in their own straight SIX engines are fully mapped i believe.
My criticism is not of the Lucas system per se, just that the car was never developed/refined to iron out things.
Although my own Chimaera has a full TVR service history, my current main problem is it feels like there is no "choke" being appled when cold and it's sometimes very cold! When pressing the accel the engine almost stalls unless coaxing it to over 2000 + rpm. When it is at normal temp all is good. As the Chimaera's don't use a cold injector, the ECU increases the fuel injection time to compensate when it senses low temperature i believe. Any ideas what and where to check guys to save me money in the garage until service time.
Thanks in advance
Heres my Air fuel dyno print out using standard ECU, smooth power curve(smoother than silicones megasquirt) but very rich
Its not the best bit of kit but it works!!
Im after some adjustment on my fueling with out spending cocaine money, at the moment i see all these after markers ecu's for sale and with every thing needed its going to be close to a £1000 if not more, I cant really justify it on a Chim
Its not the best bit of kit but it works!!
Im after some adjustment on my fueling with out spending cocaine money, at the moment i see all these after markers ecu's for sale and with every thing needed its going to be close to a £1000 if not more, I cant really justify it on a Chim
Edited by Alexdaredevilz on Sunday 21st November 16:35
Edited by Alexdaredevilz on Sunday 21st November 16:36
Clean your stepper.
And while we're at it
It's in the manual, we're not telling you on a public forum.
TADTS
Yes, both of the fuel lines, don't forget the return one.
A little, make sure to seal all the cable entry points.
Yes, Polyflex do a full kit.
About an inch from the bottom of the overflow tank, but they all find their own level.
24F, 26R on Proxes.
It's the switch under the dashboard.
Carl Baker.
Rose jointed droplinks
And while we're at it
It's in the manual, we're not telling you on a public forum.
TADTS
Yes, both of the fuel lines, don't forget the return one.
A little, make sure to seal all the cable entry points.
Yes, Polyflex do a full kit.
About an inch from the bottom of the overflow tank, but they all find their own level.
24F, 26R on Proxes.
It's the switch under the dashboard.
Carl Baker.
Rose jointed droplinks
The 14 CUX is absolutely fine for the car (if it's tuned correctly) in its standard guise. With the exception of the odd bit of shunting, the car runs smoothly and makes pretty good power.
I run an Emerald ECU which is probably the most common with TVR owners, but you have plenty more to choose from (megasquirt, omex, dta, motec, gems etc). This is a crucial step if you intend on tuning the car so you can tame cams, control ignition etc, which is the reason why I got one. But there are plenty of downfalls with doing this; it is expensive and a bit of a pain in the arse to install as well, and it can be very difficult to get as good a map as standard.
This is because the 14CUX will have had hundreds of hours of testing under its development and you generally expect a mapper to do an after market on in an afternoon. Consequently you tend to find all sorts of tiny glitches in the map in strange areas over time. This can be very annoying and unless you're looking to up the power, can make an aftermarket ECU look like a bum deal.
I've done quite a bit of development to mine and its still not perfect, but it has benefitted me hugely in tuning the car, and I enjoy learning about how it all works being an engineer so that's a plus for me!
So in short, its worth it if you're tuning your car but for an improvement in the car as standard, I wouldn't bother..
I run an Emerald ECU which is probably the most common with TVR owners, but you have plenty more to choose from (megasquirt, omex, dta, motec, gems etc). This is a crucial step if you intend on tuning the car so you can tame cams, control ignition etc, which is the reason why I got one. But there are plenty of downfalls with doing this; it is expensive and a bit of a pain in the arse to install as well, and it can be very difficult to get as good a map as standard.
This is because the 14CUX will have had hundreds of hours of testing under its development and you generally expect a mapper to do an after market on in an afternoon. Consequently you tend to find all sorts of tiny glitches in the map in strange areas over time. This can be very annoying and unless you're looking to up the power, can make an aftermarket ECU look like a bum deal.
I've done quite a bit of development to mine and its still not perfect, but it has benefitted me hugely in tuning the car, and I enjoy learning about how it all works being an engineer so that's a plus for me!
So in short, its worth it if you're tuning your car but for an improvement in the car as standard, I wouldn't bother..
Let me put you straight..I paid extra money to V8D to have the the engine put on the test bed.
1 To run it in
2 To get the best guess map close enough before fitting the engine.
I knew that something was very wrong ,puffs
of black smoke and a strong smell
of petrol.I asked them why the fueling is so far out and they blamed the different manifold system on the test bed!
I was very disappointed with the results even after paying for the engine to be run in on the test bed.
I was given the car back in that state and i did not mess with the engine in any way.
My only options at this point were to eather try to contact Mark Adams or go after market.I gave up after many weeks of emailing and trying to phone him so i went after market.I would of been very happy keeping the 14CUX .
Now you know the hole story so please stop taking the p
s .
the engine made nearly 300bhp with the 14cux with bad fueling so with the correct fueling it may of come close to the Megasquirt..
The advantages of the Megasquirt are very smooth cruise (no shunting)more power and the option to have 2 maps LPG or Nitros.
Now i have told you i will also say after over 15 phone calls and many emails i still do not have the receipt for the engine rebuild...!!!Over 15 months now.
1 To run it in
2 To get the best guess map close enough before fitting the engine.
I knew that something was very wrong ,puffs
of black smoke and a strong smell
of petrol.I asked them why the fueling is so far out and they blamed the different manifold system on the test bed!
I was very disappointed with the results even after paying for the engine to be run in on the test bed.
I was given the car back in that state and i did not mess with the engine in any way.
My only options at this point were to eather try to contact Mark Adams or go after market.I gave up after many weeks of emailing and trying to phone him so i went after market.I would of been very happy keeping the 14CUX .
Now you know the hole story so please stop taking the p
s .the engine made nearly 300bhp with the 14cux with bad fueling so with the correct fueling it may of come close to the Megasquirt..
The advantages of the Megasquirt are very smooth cruise (no shunting)more power and the option to have 2 maps LPG or Nitros.
Now i have told you i will also say after over 15 phone calls and many emails i still do not have the receipt for the engine rebuild...!!!Over 15 months now.
Edited by SILICONE KID on Sunday 21st November 19:27
You cant blame V8D for that in any way, assuming they did not have your 14CUX, loom and sensors as part of the test bed, so how would they know it was not working? Id say looking at your graph the AFM output was missing or wrong, and it was running on the throttle position sensor only, but we will never know for sure.
As for the OP's issues, the initial injector pulse width pulse is a fixed period (about 3 seconds) until a stable voltage can be taken from the AFM, at which point the pulse width is set to match the air flow, dependent on engine temperature and base mapping. The mixture may still be wrong at this point (normally they over fuel), and will remain so for about 20 seconds until the Lambda probes are hot enough to come into play and correct the mixture, and then it should drive OK(ish). If however the ECU does not get this feedback, it will never trim the mixture and just rely on the base mapping and you would never know otherwise most of the time. If you listen to the cold engine note, its quite marked as it trims the mixture, from the "on choke" sound to the normal idle so its worth listening for at that 20-30 second interval. Ive not had a chance to look at a car with this specific fault, but quite a few people seem to have the same issue, but without taking some readings on a cold start I would not want to diagnose further.
As for the OP's issues, the initial injector pulse width pulse is a fixed period (about 3 seconds) until a stable voltage can be taken from the AFM, at which point the pulse width is set to match the air flow, dependent on engine temperature and base mapping. The mixture may still be wrong at this point (normally they over fuel), and will remain so for about 20 seconds until the Lambda probes are hot enough to come into play and correct the mixture, and then it should drive OK(ish). If however the ECU does not get this feedback, it will never trim the mixture and just rely on the base mapping and you would never know otherwise most of the time. If you listen to the cold engine note, its quite marked as it trims the mixture, from the "on choke" sound to the normal idle so its worth listening for at that 20-30 second interval. Ive not had a chance to look at a car with this specific fault, but quite a few people seem to have the same issue, but without taking some readings on a cold start I would not want to diagnose further.
The car was left there with the ECU..I had to spend more money to get the fueling right so the test bed was a waste of time and money..That`s how it came back to me ..engine re fitted and ready to be picked up.All i do is lay out more money!Remember it had a Mark Adams chip so correct fueling was not a issue..
Edited by SILICONE KID on Monday 22 November 09:07
Thanks for all the advice. Re the very poor response/accel when the engine is cold, I will try initially cleaning the stepper and check the electrical connections to other sensors. Also wipe the inside of the Dis Cap/rotor arm etc. The ign leads/cap/rotor arm etc were all replaced 6K/2years ago.
Is it a good idea to spray "Damp Start" over the electrics and INSIDE the dis Cap etc?
Cheers
G
Is it a good idea to spray "Damp Start" over the electrics and INSIDE the dis Cap etc?
Cheers
G
captaintact said:
Thanks for all the advice. Re the very poor response/accel when the engine is cold, I will try initially cleaning the stepper and check the electrical connections to other sensors. Also wipe the inside of the Dis Cap/rotor arm etc. The ign leads/cap/rotor arm etc were all replaced 6K/2years ago.
Is it a good idea to spray "Damp Start" over the electrics and INSIDE the dis Cap etc?
Cheers
G
3000miles a year is a bit on the low side and can cause more problems than it avoids with bits corroding up, perishing etc thru lack of use.Is it a good idea to spray "Damp Start" over the electrics and INSIDE the dis Cap etc?
Cheers
G
Check that Damp Start isnt silicone based, silicone based sprays + dizzy cap internals = a 3D jigsaw puzzle working from your memory of what the dizzy cap used to look like.
IMO WD40 is the best stuff for dizzy caps
Regards
Iain
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