X308 Timing Chain Questions
Discussion
I am looking at buying a 99 Jaguar V8 from an auction, mileage is guaranteed at 80k but no paperwork (finance repo).
Is there a way of looking at it to find out if the chain has been upgraded?
If its not been done what is the likelihood of this failing?
Is it worth buying ( what price? ) totally mint condition and in seafrost green, silent engine running, no failures on dashboard and gearbox changes are all good.
Cheers
Is there a way of looking at it to find out if the chain has been upgraded?
If its not been done what is the likelihood of this failing?
Is it worth buying ( what price? ) totally mint condition and in seafrost green, silent engine running, no failures on dashboard and gearbox changes are all good.
Cheers
Chains do not need upgrading, only the secondary timing chain tensioners do.
Chains need replacing if they are worn or damaged. This is usually only nessecary on high mileage or neglected engines
Remove the RH cam cover - the left one is a PITA to get off and have a look at the secondary tensioner underneath the top of the short exhaust cam chain.
1st gen: Orange/dark red plastic body. Fitted launch to around 2000. Change it.
2nd gen: Cream plastic body. Fitted 2000 to end of X308 production. Change it.
3rd gen: Grey metal body and cream plastic guide. Retro fit from 2003 on. OK.
Reasonably easy DIY. Hire the timing tools from the JEC. Parts around £90, Gaskets about £50
An indy should charge no more than 3 hours labour.
Chains need replacing if they are worn or damaged. This is usually only nessecary on high mileage or neglected engines
Remove the RH cam cover - the left one is a PITA to get off and have a look at the secondary tensioner underneath the top of the short exhaust cam chain.
1st gen: Orange/dark red plastic body. Fitted launch to around 2000. Change it.
2nd gen: Cream plastic body. Fitted 2000 to end of X308 production. Change it.
3rd gen: Grey metal body and cream plastic guide. Retro fit from 2003 on. OK.
Reasonably easy DIY. Hire the timing tools from the JEC. Parts around £90, Gaskets about £50
An indy should charge no more than 3 hours labour.
@ 80K miles I would do the lot just as a matter of course, back in the earlier days when this problem was new, yeah sure just do the secondary, but most if they still have them are approaching 100K miles, I did one just the other week with 130K miles, just goes to show not all went bang 
XJ8s are so inexpensive it makes far more sense to buy a later car (2001/2002) with all the upgrades done already and no risk of Niksail.
On top of the chain tensioners you should also look for gearbox oil and filter changes and aluminium thermostat housing changes as a minimum. This is around £1500 worth of work so why buy one without unless you are to spend nothing on it until it breaks...
On top of the chain tensioners you should also look for gearbox oil and filter changes and aluminium thermostat housing changes as a minimum. This is around £1500 worth of work so why buy one without unless you are to spend nothing on it until it breaks...
Have a read of this guy he's probably changed more sets than anyone else in the UK and is an absolute expert on them, www.jagutek.com
To only change the top ones is ridiculous near all I have had changed have had the guides going as well, it's also very tricky to do your self and I've seen dozens of good mechanics phone me after putting them back together and the timming being out. The 350 Jags are now down to £3000 to £5000 and are vastly better car.
All the best with your search.
To only change the top ones is ridiculous near all I have had changed have had the guides going as well, it's also very tricky to do your self and I've seen dozens of good mechanics phone me after putting them back together and the timming being out. The 350 Jags are now down to £3000 to £5000 and are vastly better car.
All the best with your search.
MR-JEC said:
Should read www.jagutec.co.ukHere is their link regarding Timing Chains
http://www.jagutek.co.uk/tensioners.htm
MR-JEC said:
Have a read of this guy he's probably changed more sets than anyone else in the UK and is an absolute expert on them, www.jagutek.com
To only change the top ones is ridiculous near all I have had changed have had the guides going as well, it's also very tricky to do your self and I've seen dozens of good mechanics phone me after putting them back together and the timming being out. The 350 Jags are now down to £3000 to £5000 and are vastly better car.
All the best with your search.
To only change the top ones is ridiculous near all I have had changed have had the guides going as well, it's also very tricky to do your self and I've seen dozens of good mechanics phone me after putting them back together and the timming being out. The 350 Jags are now down to £3000 to £5000 and are vastly better car.
All the best with your search.
Not ridiculous at all. Tensioner change is preventative maitainence on a particular component known to have serious weaknesses. Replacing all the chains - which any competent mechanic with the right timing tools should find easy to do and if they do fjuck the timing up or try to do the job without the correct tools they can hardly be called competent - is a repair and often only necessary on either neglected or very high mileage engines.Quote from jagutecs own article:
"Investing in preventive replacement of the tensioners will remedy this excellent engine’s only serious flaw. If proper maintenance is carried out and the car is not abused, your V8 Jaguar engine should be as reliable and long-lived as its famously durable 6-cylinder ancestor".
I ran my previous XJ8 past 100k with the original chains, sprockets and guides and know of another at 182k still going strong on the factory components. Both had 3rd gen metal tensioners fitted as soon as they became available to retrofit.
Funny, the website of jagutek looked already familiar, it is mostly a copy (let’s say 99.9%) from http://www.jagservice.net/parts.htm, I know when they started updating that site with info many moons ago.
Would also do the lot, but most critical are the upper tensioners, so if on a tight budget, and the engine is low mileage, you could possibly just do the uppers. But on my car the plastic from the primary guides where already cracking after about 75kmiles, they probably could have lived much longer, but I just changed the lot.
“3rd gen: Grey metal body and cream plastic guide. Retro fit from 2003 on. OK.”
As far as I know they became only available as retrofit from Jaguar in 2005. So also rebuild engines before that date would still have gotten the old style tensioners. I bought them just when they become available then, which is why I know the 2005 year.
Oddly enough, the 4.0 engine build from August 13th 2001 did already get the 3rd gen ones from the factory.
Would also do the lot, but most critical are the upper tensioners, so if on a tight budget, and the engine is low mileage, you could possibly just do the uppers. But on my car the plastic from the primary guides where already cracking after about 75kmiles, they probably could have lived much longer, but I just changed the lot.
“3rd gen: Grey metal body and cream plastic guide. Retro fit from 2003 on. OK.”
As far as I know they became only available as retrofit from Jaguar in 2005. So also rebuild engines before that date would still have gotten the old style tensioners. I bought them just when they become available then, which is why I know the 2005 year.
Oddly enough, the 4.0 engine build from August 13th 2001 did already get the 3rd gen ones from the factory.
Jaguar steve said:
Chains do not need upgrading, only the secondary timing chain tensioners do.
Chains need replacing if they are worn or damaged. This is usually only nessecary on high mileage or neglected engines
Remove the RH cam cover - the left one is a PITA to get off and have a look at the secondary tensioner underneath the top of the short exhaust cam chain.
1st gen: Orange/dark red plastic body. Fitted launch to around 2000. Change it.
2nd gen: Cream plastic body. Fitted 2000 to end of X308 production. Change it.
3rd gen: Grey metal body and cream plastic guide. Retro fit from 2003 on. OK.
Reasonably easy DIY. Hire the timing tools from the JEC. Parts around £90, Gaskets about £50
An indy should charge no more than 3 hours labour.
Do you know of an indy that has the tools and quotes 3 hours to do this ?Chains need replacing if they are worn or damaged. This is usually only nessecary on high mileage or neglected engines
Remove the RH cam cover - the left one is a PITA to get off and have a look at the secondary tensioner underneath the top of the short exhaust cam chain.
1st gen: Orange/dark red plastic body. Fitted launch to around 2000. Change it.
2nd gen: Cream plastic body. Fitted 2000 to end of X308 production. Change it.
3rd gen: Grey metal body and cream plastic guide. Retro fit from 2003 on. OK.
Reasonably easy DIY. Hire the timing tools from the JEC. Parts around £90, Gaskets about £50
An indy should charge no more than 3 hours labour.
Mr_B said:
Jaguar steve said:
Chains do not need upgrading, only the secondary timing chain tensioners do.
Chains need replacing if they are worn or damaged. This is usually only nessecary on high mileage or neglected engines
Remove the RH cam cover - the left one is a PITA to get off and have a look at the secondary tensioner underneath the top of the short exhaust cam chain.
1st gen: Orange/dark red plastic body. Fitted launch to around 2000. Change it.
2nd gen: Cream plastic body. Fitted 2000 to end of X308 production. Change it.
3rd gen: Grey metal body and cream plastic guide. Retro fit from 2003 on. OK.
Reasonably easy DIY. Hire the timing tools from the JEC. Parts around £90, Gaskets about £50
An indy should charge no more than 3 hours labour.
Do you know of an indy that has the tools and quotes 3 hours to do this ?Chains need replacing if they are worn or damaged. This is usually only nessecary on high mileage or neglected engines
Remove the RH cam cover - the left one is a PITA to get off and have a look at the secondary tensioner underneath the top of the short exhaust cam chain.
1st gen: Orange/dark red plastic body. Fitted launch to around 2000. Change it.
2nd gen: Cream plastic body. Fitted 2000 to end of X308 production. Change it.
3rd gen: Grey metal body and cream plastic guide. Retro fit from 2003 on. OK.
Reasonably easy DIY. Hire the timing tools from the JEC. Parts around £90, Gaskets about £50
An indy should charge no more than 3 hours labour.
J
jith said:
Mr_B said:
Jaguar steve said:
Chains do not need upgrading, only the secondary timing chain tensioners do.
Chains need replacing if they are worn or damaged. This is usually only nessecary on high mileage or neglected engines
Remove the RH cam cover - the left one is a PITA to get off and have a look at the secondary tensioner underneath the top of the short exhaust cam chain.
1st gen: Orange/dark red plastic body. Fitted launch to around 2000. Change it.
2nd gen: Cream plastic body. Fitted 2000 to end of X308 production. Change it.
3rd gen: Grey metal body and cream plastic guide. Retro fit from 2003 on. OK.
Reasonably easy DIY. Hire the timing tools from the JEC. Parts around £90, Gaskets about £50
An indy should charge no more than 3 hours labour.
Do you know of an indy that has the tools and quotes 3 hours to do this ?Chains need replacing if they are worn or damaged. This is usually only nessecary on high mileage or neglected engines
Remove the RH cam cover - the left one is a PITA to get off and have a look at the secondary tensioner underneath the top of the short exhaust cam chain.
1st gen: Orange/dark red plastic body. Fitted launch to around 2000. Change it.
2nd gen: Cream plastic body. Fitted 2000 to end of X308 production. Change it.
3rd gen: Grey metal body and cream plastic guide. Retro fit from 2003 on. OK.
Reasonably easy DIY. Hire the timing tools from the JEC. Parts around £90, Gaskets about £50
An indy should charge no more than 3 hours labour.
J
Took me an afternoon to do mine - that's on the first attempt and includes time spent cleaning up and re using all the gaskets and plug seals, changing the oil afterwards and tea/thinking breaks. The most difficult part of the job was freeing the dipstick tube bracket from the stud on the LH cam cover - otherwise it's really simple - far less of a challenge than somthing like a cambelt change on a complex FWD car. I've not worked on cars professionally for over 25 years now so any Jaguar independent with current experience should be able to do the job comfortably within three hours with their eyes shut. If not they are either not competent or ripping you off.
You need to phone round and ask. The answer you are most likley to get will be it'll depend on the condition of the chains, and they won't know that until the cam covers are off. As a guide, if you take out the dipstick and look inside the oil filler cap and see clean, bright shiny metal and also have evidence of regular oil changes than chances are the chains themselves will be OK. If there are gaps in the history or you see a thick brown film deposited all over the internals than chances are they may not be.
If you're not going to DIY I'd suggest you talk to Paul Roach - Sudbury Essex. Other Jaguar indies near me are Wyn Thomas - Ongar Essex, and Les Paul - East London.
These three all have good reputations and have been in buisness for a long time, Google will no doubt find a lot more.
If you're not going to DIY I'd suggest you talk to Paul Roach - Sudbury Essex. Other Jaguar indies near me are Wyn Thomas - Ongar Essex, and Les Paul - East London.
These three all have good reputations and have been in buisness for a long time, Google will no doubt find a lot more.
Jaguar steve said:
jith said:
Mr_B said:
Jaguar steve said:
Chains do not need upgrading, only the secondary timing chain tensioners do.
Chains need replacing if they are worn or damaged. This is usually only nessecary on high mileage or neglected engines
Remove the RH cam cover - the left one is a PITA to get off and have a look at the secondary tensioner underneath the top of the short exhaust cam chain.
1st gen: Orange/dark red plastic body. Fitted launch to around 2000. Change it.
2nd gen: Cream plastic body. Fitted 2000 to end of X308 production. Change it.
3rd gen: Grey metal body and cream plastic guide. Retro fit from 2003 on. OK.
Reasonably easy DIY. Hire the timing tools from the JEC. Parts around £90, Gaskets about £50
An indy should charge no more than 3 hours labour.
Do you know of an indy that has the tools and quotes 3 hours to do this ?Chains need replacing if they are worn or damaged. This is usually only nessecary on high mileage or neglected engines
Remove the RH cam cover - the left one is a PITA to get off and have a look at the secondary tensioner underneath the top of the short exhaust cam chain.
1st gen: Orange/dark red plastic body. Fitted launch to around 2000. Change it.
2nd gen: Cream plastic body. Fitted 2000 to end of X308 production. Change it.
3rd gen: Grey metal body and cream plastic guide. Retro fit from 2003 on. OK.
Reasonably easy DIY. Hire the timing tools from the JEC. Parts around £90, Gaskets about £50
An indy should charge no more than 3 hours labour.
J
Took me an afternoon to do mine - that's on the first attempt and includes time spent cleaning up and re using all the gaskets and plug seals, changing the oil afterwards and tea/thinking breaks. The most difficult part of the job was freeing the dipstick tube bracket from the stud on the LH cam cover - otherwise it's really simple - far less of a challenge than somthing like a cambelt change on a complex FWD car. I've not worked on cars professionally for over 25 years now so any Jaguar independent with current experience should be able to do the job comfortably within three hours with their eyes shut. If not they are either not competent or ripping you off.
I actually have around 50 years experience repairing Jaguars if you take into account the first job I did was to replace the plugs and points on my dad's Mk IX in 1962 at the age of 12.
When you repair Jaguars for a living it is an entirely different ball game from enthusiastic and often blinkered ownership. Without exception every single V8 I have repaired the chains on had a problem of some sort that isn't mentioned in the manual. Fixings seized solid, hoses that split no matter how gentle you are with them, corrosion on everything, even the plastic bits!!
It is utter folly to only replace one part of the timing gear, I don't care what you have been told, and I refuse to do it. This was a serious design flaw on these engines and again, every one I have worked on had signs of premature failure at various points on the timing gear. This was caused by poor design and development by Jaguar, nothing else. It is madness to manufacture chain tensioners that are constantly under high, fluctuating stress and pressure in plastic. The same goes for the chain guides.
The proof of this is that I have never had a comeback on any car that has the modified steel guides and tensioners fitted. Always replace the complete timing gear because the consequence of failure is terminal engine damage.
Jaguar should have built them like this in the first place of course.
J
There are two entirely seperate issues here. Preventative maintainence on one hand and repair on the other. The first is curing a design weakness in the mk1 and mk2 plastic bodied secondary timing chain tensioners, the second is general wear and tear in the rest of the timing gear that's more often than not caused by breakdown and heavy contamination of the engine oil. If you look at any pictures of V8s undergoing chain replacement you'll see every single one shows the engine internal surfaces are filthy - caked in brown tarry deposits thats a classic symptom of a combination of neglected servicing and poor or minimum spec engine oil.
This tensioner issue has been covered in great depth by the technical experts within the Jaguar Enthusiasts Club and I share their view that firstly each case must be carefully assesed, and secondly that unless chains/guides/sprockets are worn there is no point in going to the additional significant expense of changing them. The consensus is that any V8 with reasonable mileage, no evidence of overheating and a robust service history is unlikley to need replacement chains but it'll almost certainly have tensioner problems lurking.
As a garage owner you will of course see the situation differently. Firstly you have to give the impression you're working to the highest possible standards and have to offer some warranty on any work you do, so naturally you need to make absolutely sure you have done the work in such a way that there will be no consequences should somthing go wrong at some time in the future, and secondly there's a lot more chargeable hours and profit for your buisness by changing all the timimg gear rather than just the secondary tensioners.
I ran my previous XJ8 past 100k on it's original chains. Just as I expected there was no evidence of any wear in the timimg gear when I changed the tensioners but both (mk 2) tensioners had cracked - one to the point it fell apart when removed. I know of another well maintained 3.2 V8 that's currently on 182k, still on original chains. Both cars had metal bodied tensiioners fitted as soon as the retro fit became available.
There's always several sides to the same story but at the end of the day of course it'll be down to the OP what he chooses to do. He has the choice of the purists option of changing everything regardless of cost or condition, the practical option of replacing just the secondary tensioners, the rather risky option of just ignoring the whole issue alltogether, or the very smart option of buying a car thats had whatever work is necessary already done.
This tensioner issue has been covered in great depth by the technical experts within the Jaguar Enthusiasts Club and I share their view that firstly each case must be carefully assesed, and secondly that unless chains/guides/sprockets are worn there is no point in going to the additional significant expense of changing them. The consensus is that any V8 with reasonable mileage, no evidence of overheating and a robust service history is unlikley to need replacement chains but it'll almost certainly have tensioner problems lurking.
As a garage owner you will of course see the situation differently. Firstly you have to give the impression you're working to the highest possible standards and have to offer some warranty on any work you do, so naturally you need to make absolutely sure you have done the work in such a way that there will be no consequences should somthing go wrong at some time in the future, and secondly there's a lot more chargeable hours and profit for your buisness by changing all the timimg gear rather than just the secondary tensioners.
I ran my previous XJ8 past 100k on it's original chains. Just as I expected there was no evidence of any wear in the timimg gear when I changed the tensioners but both (mk 2) tensioners had cracked - one to the point it fell apart when removed. I know of another well maintained 3.2 V8 that's currently on 182k, still on original chains. Both cars had metal bodied tensiioners fitted as soon as the retro fit became available.
There's always several sides to the same story but at the end of the day of course it'll be down to the OP what he chooses to do. He has the choice of the purists option of changing everything regardless of cost or condition, the practical option of replacing just the secondary tensioners, the rather risky option of just ignoring the whole issue alltogether, or the very smart option of buying a car thats had whatever work is necessary already done.
Mr_B said:
Do you know of an indy that has the tools and quotes 3 hours to do this ?
Just to do the top tensioners...maybe.... It's a good whole day to do the lot, I have probably done it more than 50 times and I could not do the complete set in 3 hours..... I would change everything as I have already said most cars will be approaching 100K anyway
Edited by XKRacer on Monday 18th June 21:47
Mr_B said:
Jaguar steve said:
Chains do not need upgrading, only the secondary timing chain tensioners do.
Chains need replacing if they are worn or damaged. This is usually only nessecary on high mileage or neglected engines
Remove the RH cam cover - the left one is a PITA to get off and have a look at the secondary tensioner underneath the top of the short exhaust cam chain.
1st gen: Orange/dark red plastic body. Fitted launch to around 2000. Change it.
2nd gen: Cream plastic body. Fitted 2000 to end of X308 production. Change it.
3rd gen: Grey metal body and cream plastic guide. Retro fit from 2003 on. OK.
Reasonably easy DIY. Hire the timing tools from the JEC. Parts around £90, Gaskets about £50
An indy should charge no more than 3 hours labour.
Do you know of an indy that has the tools and quotes 3 hours to do this ?Chains need replacing if they are worn or damaged. This is usually only nessecary on high mileage or neglected engines
Remove the RH cam cover - the left one is a PITA to get off and have a look at the secondary tensioner underneath the top of the short exhaust cam chain.
1st gen: Orange/dark red plastic body. Fitted launch to around 2000. Change it.
2nd gen: Cream plastic body. Fitted 2000 to end of X308 production. Change it.
3rd gen: Grey metal body and cream plastic guide. Retro fit from 2003 on. OK.
Reasonably easy DIY. Hire the timing tools from the JEC. Parts around £90, Gaskets about £50
An indy should charge no more than 3 hours labour.
£75 for the parts and four hours labour.
He'd never looked at one before but, (while they're not exactly cheap!), I trust them implicitly.
He now wants one.
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