Engine options... Coolant leaking into cylinder... Help!
Discussion
Are you sure that you have water in the oil ? Head gaskets do go on these engines usually as a result of the car overheating in the past. The usual reason for low water is a leak. The mirriad of pipes especially the one beneath the supercharger are prone to leak and leave no trace. IMO it is not Nikasil as the coating is only in the cylinder bore. Hopefully it is just a leaking pipe, otherwise it is expensive.
P700DEE said:
Are you sure that you have water in the oil ? Head gaskets do go on these engines usually as a result of the car overheating in the past. The usual reason for low water is a leak. The mirriad of pipes especially the one beneath the supercharger are prone to leak and leave no trace. IMO it is not Nikasil as the coating is only in the cylinder bore. Hopefully it is just a leaking pipe, otherwise it is expensive.
Leaking pipe wouldn't explain rough idling and, what I believe, is coolant causing white smoke though?I can't see any trace of water in the oil to be honest i.e. no gunk under the filler cap but thats the only way I know of testing without getting a garage involved.
Also I've had my suspicions for a few weeks now that something was amiss and I've been religiously checking the oil level. No change what so ever. So I'm cautiously optimistic it's not Nikasil related.
The temperature has never changed from the middle of the guage. Warm up times are typical. I agree with the HG comment. It seems unusual to say the least! But I suspect this engine has been rebuilt at some point and perhaps not to the best standard...
I will definately start looking at the coolant pipework as well but I think that another compression test should prove for sure.
Can't help much but I have exactly the same symptoms. Misfire, loosing water with 100 miles etc, no water in oil.
Have you taken the cap off the water header tank and had a sniff? Mine smells of exhaust gases and oil (not good imo)
People on here reckon £1500 to do the job, and I wouldn't contemplate having a crack at it myself, having replaced the radiator I quickly realised that these things are built without simplicity in mind!
Have you taken the cap off the water header tank and had a sniff? Mine smells of exhaust gases and oil (not good imo)
People on here reckon £1500 to do the job, and I wouldn't contemplate having a crack at it myself, having replaced the radiator I quickly realised that these things are built without simplicity in mind!
A compression test isn't a good way to diagnose HGF. Look for oil in the coolant, or combustion gases (use a block tester and/or look for frothing when it is revved from idle) and pressure test the cooling system.
If you have an internal coolant leak, or combustion gases in the coolant, a leakdown test would help confirm that you have a problem and may show where it is.
If you have an internal coolant leak, or combustion gases in the coolant, a leakdown test would help confirm that you have a problem and may show where it is.
Edited by GreenV8S on Monday 9th March 20:58
Errr.. I think you should get it checked out before assuming it's a head gasket.
My old 1998 XJR went through a phase of loosing coolant, it used to take a day or so to get to the coolant low warning.
Took me ages to suss out what it was.
It was a split in the pipe which runs down to the expansion bottle under the front wing. It meant that the water would expand into the bottle, then, when the engine was cooling, it wouldn't get sucked back up into the engine again becuase there was no vacuum being formed as it would draw air back in through the split instead.
If you are loosing water into the engine, one of the best ways of telling is to see if you have any 'mayonaise' in the oil filler cap. Even that is not fool proof, as during the winter many cars form some of this because of condensation mixing with the oil.
Don't assume it's as expensive as a HG.
Also very ulikely to be Nikasil, the first evidence of a nikasil problem is usually that the car won't start. It's fair to say that any car that's made it this far , whether through having had a new engine fitted or having avoided sulphur fuel prior to 2000, is unlikely to start fail due to nikasil as nikasil was used int he first place becuase the coating was much harder wearing than standarda steel liners.
I used to have a 1990 4.0 sov which smoked white at start up and blue smoke when acccelerating after slowing down, nothing too mch to worry about, worn valve stems apparently... I ran it like that for 10 years and 50K + miles without it needing looking at.
ETA, HAving re-read your posts I would strongly suggest you take it to someone who can check it over for you. NOt wanting to be antagonistic, but it's evident from your posts that you don't actually know much about these engines or how to diagnose them or what the issues that some of the early ones had actually mean and how it relates to diagnosing symptons that would indicate the problems.
For example, nikasil is nothing to do with oil levels and checking your oil level wouldn't give you much of a clue as to whether nikasil is an issue. That can only be confirmed with a blow down test at a garage.
It might be worth doing some more reading up on the engine and it's problems, I've never heard of a HG going on the V8s so I would be REALLY suprised if it's that.
Try www.jaglovers.org and have a read through some of the forums on there, I think there may even be one specifically for the V8 engines.
Find a specialist to have a look. :-)
My old 1998 XJR went through a phase of loosing coolant, it used to take a day or so to get to the coolant low warning.
Took me ages to suss out what it was.
It was a split in the pipe which runs down to the expansion bottle under the front wing. It meant that the water would expand into the bottle, then, when the engine was cooling, it wouldn't get sucked back up into the engine again becuase there was no vacuum being formed as it would draw air back in through the split instead.
If you are loosing water into the engine, one of the best ways of telling is to see if you have any 'mayonaise' in the oil filler cap. Even that is not fool proof, as during the winter many cars form some of this because of condensation mixing with the oil.
Don't assume it's as expensive as a HG.
Also very ulikely to be Nikasil, the first evidence of a nikasil problem is usually that the car won't start. It's fair to say that any car that's made it this far , whether through having had a new engine fitted or having avoided sulphur fuel prior to 2000, is unlikely to start fail due to nikasil as nikasil was used int he first place becuase the coating was much harder wearing than standarda steel liners.
I used to have a 1990 4.0 sov which smoked white at start up and blue smoke when acccelerating after slowing down, nothing too mch to worry about, worn valve stems apparently... I ran it like that for 10 years and 50K + miles without it needing looking at.
ETA, HAving re-read your posts I would strongly suggest you take it to someone who can check it over for you. NOt wanting to be antagonistic, but it's evident from your posts that you don't actually know much about these engines or how to diagnose them or what the issues that some of the early ones had actually mean and how it relates to diagnosing symptons that would indicate the problems.
For example, nikasil is nothing to do with oil levels and checking your oil level wouldn't give you much of a clue as to whether nikasil is an issue. That can only be confirmed with a blow down test at a garage.
It might be worth doing some more reading up on the engine and it's problems, I've never heard of a HG going on the V8s so I would be REALLY suprised if it's that.
Try www.jaglovers.org and have a read through some of the forums on there, I think there may even be one specifically for the V8 engines.
Find a specialist to have a look. :-)
Edited by Piersman2 on Monday 9th March 21:10
GT/Schueymcfee?
GreenV8s is completly correct, you must get this checked by a specialist who has diagnosed and fixed these engines before, they will carry out the mentioned block test that effectively shows up combustion gasses in the coolant and will confirm HGF, we have done quite a few of the early V8's now, once stripped the gaskets normally look to be in good condition but close inspection reveals a slight distortion of the ring around the cylinder allowing a passage for coolant to enter the cylinder.
When they are caught early the car will often start and idle fine if left for a few days then once warmed up a missfire may develope on idle or once shut down & left for a bit then restarted it will miss due to the pressure in the cooling system forcing a volume of water into the cylinder, this gives the white smoke.
Leaving it running like this will only cause potential further damage to the head, you may be able to work out which cylinder is affected by inspecting the plugs - they can tell you quite a bit from a quick once over.
Regards
Dan
Elite & Performance Jags (Derbyshire)
GreenV8s is completly correct, you must get this checked by a specialist who has diagnosed and fixed these engines before, they will carry out the mentioned block test that effectively shows up combustion gasses in the coolant and will confirm HGF, we have done quite a few of the early V8's now, once stripped the gaskets normally look to be in good condition but close inspection reveals a slight distortion of the ring around the cylinder allowing a passage for coolant to enter the cylinder.
When they are caught early the car will often start and idle fine if left for a few days then once warmed up a missfire may develope on idle or once shut down & left for a bit then restarted it will miss due to the pressure in the cooling system forcing a volume of water into the cylinder, this gives the white smoke.
Leaving it running like this will only cause potential further damage to the head, you may be able to work out which cylinder is affected by inspecting the plugs - they can tell you quite a bit from a quick once over.
Regards
Dan
Elite & Performance Jags (Derbyshire)
Some useful info there thanks guys. I had never even heard of a block tester. I'll be sure to give it a look after I've checked the pipes etc.
I know about the mayonaise thing. I've checked under the oil cap. I've checked the consistency of the oil under the dipstick and I've even had a nosey around the expansion tank. Nothing. Even the colour of the coolant seems fine.
I'm aware of the Nikasil issues and their cause but I don't understand how oil level wouldn't indicate if there were problems? If the bores are heavily worn then surely oil would pass through the gap between the piston and the block so the engine would burn more oil during the combustion cycle? Whilst this isn't a large amount in itself I would have thought it would of become noticeable after 2500 miles? I'm not looking for total failure but it would surely give some indication of wear?
I understand a blow by test might give a more accurate reading than a compression test but surely the premise is the same by checking pressure?
I'm going to check all the pipes, block tester, colour of plugs, bubbles in coolant under revs etc at the weekend. But I don't see how split pipes alone would lead to heavy condensation from the exhaust and rough idling? (Assuming that they're related and atypical).
As I said I'm still looking into it... It was more of a panic/worst case scenerio needed post...
Piersman2 said:
Errr.. I think you should get it checked out before assuming it's a head gasket.
My old 1998 XJR went through a phase of loosing coolant, it used to take a day or so to get to the coolant low warning.
Took me ages to suss out what it was.
It was a split in the pipe which runs down to the expansion bottle under the front wing. It meant that the water would expand into the bottle, then, when the engine was cooling, it wouldn't get sucked back up into the engine again becuase there was no vacuum being formed as it would draw air back in through the split instead.
If you are loosing water into the engine, one of the best ways of telling is to see if you have any 'mayonaise' in the oil filler cap. Even that is not fool proof, as during the winter many cars form some of this because of condensation mixing with the oil.
Don't assume it's as expensive as a HG.
Also very ulikely to be Nikasil, the first evidence of a nikasil problem is usually that the car won't start. It's fair to say that any car that's made it this far , whether through having had a new engine fitted or having avoided sulphur fuel prior to 2000, is unlikely to start fail due to nikasil as nikasil was used int he first place becuase the coating was much harder wearing than standarda steel liners.
I used to have a 1990 4.0 sov which smoked white at start up and blue smoke when acccelerating after slowing down, nothing too mch to worry about, worn valve stems apparently... I ran it like that for 10 years and 50K + miles without it needing looking at.
ETA, HAving re-read your posts I would strongly suggest you take it to someone who can check it over for you. NOt wanting to be antagonistic, but it's evident from your posts that you don't actually know much about these engines or how to diagnose them or what the issues that some of the early ones had actually mean and how it relates to diagnosing symptons that would indicate the problems.
For example, nikasil is nothing to do with oil levels and checking your oil level wouldn't give you much of a clue as to whether nikasil is an issue. That can only be confirmed with a blow down test at a garage.
It might be worth doing some more reading up on the engine and it's problems, I've never heard of a HG going on the V8s so I would be REALLY suprised if it's that.
Try www.jaglovers.org and have a read through some of the forums on there, I think there may even be one specifically for the V8 engines.
Find a specialist to have a look. :-)
I am a layman. I'm just trying to pick up as much as I can. I'm also not assuming head gasket at this stage it just seems the most likely to me although I'm still trying to make sure. As I said it's still academic but; rough idling, occasional starting difficulties, poor economy, heavy condensation and now loss of coolant suggests HG might be a problem. I know it's unlikely with these engines which is why I intend to confirm for sure but I also know that this engine has been rebuilt at some point and not necessarily by someone who knew what they were doing (in otherwords someone like me).My old 1998 XJR went through a phase of loosing coolant, it used to take a day or so to get to the coolant low warning.
Took me ages to suss out what it was.
It was a split in the pipe which runs down to the expansion bottle under the front wing. It meant that the water would expand into the bottle, then, when the engine was cooling, it wouldn't get sucked back up into the engine again becuase there was no vacuum being formed as it would draw air back in through the split instead.
If you are loosing water into the engine, one of the best ways of telling is to see if you have any 'mayonaise' in the oil filler cap. Even that is not fool proof, as during the winter many cars form some of this because of condensation mixing with the oil.
Don't assume it's as expensive as a HG.
Also very ulikely to be Nikasil, the first evidence of a nikasil problem is usually that the car won't start. It's fair to say that any car that's made it this far , whether through having had a new engine fitted or having avoided sulphur fuel prior to 2000, is unlikely to start fail due to nikasil as nikasil was used int he first place becuase the coating was much harder wearing than standarda steel liners.
I used to have a 1990 4.0 sov which smoked white at start up and blue smoke when acccelerating after slowing down, nothing too mch to worry about, worn valve stems apparently... I ran it like that for 10 years and 50K + miles without it needing looking at.
ETA, HAving re-read your posts I would strongly suggest you take it to someone who can check it over for you. NOt wanting to be antagonistic, but it's evident from your posts that you don't actually know much about these engines or how to diagnose them or what the issues that some of the early ones had actually mean and how it relates to diagnosing symptons that would indicate the problems.
For example, nikasil is nothing to do with oil levels and checking your oil level wouldn't give you much of a clue as to whether nikasil is an issue. That can only be confirmed with a blow down test at a garage.
It might be worth doing some more reading up on the engine and it's problems, I've never heard of a HG going on the V8s so I would be REALLY suprised if it's that.
Try www.jaglovers.org and have a read through some of the forums on there, I think there may even be one specifically for the V8 engines.
Find a specialist to have a look. :-)
I know about the mayonaise thing. I've checked under the oil cap. I've checked the consistency of the oil under the dipstick and I've even had a nosey around the expansion tank. Nothing. Even the colour of the coolant seems fine.
I'm aware of the Nikasil issues and their cause but I don't understand how oil level wouldn't indicate if there were problems? If the bores are heavily worn then surely oil would pass through the gap between the piston and the block so the engine would burn more oil during the combustion cycle? Whilst this isn't a large amount in itself I would have thought it would of become noticeable after 2500 miles? I'm not looking for total failure but it would surely give some indication of wear?
I understand a blow by test might give a more accurate reading than a compression test but surely the premise is the same by checking pressure?
I'm going to check all the pipes, block tester, colour of plugs, bubbles in coolant under revs etc at the weekend. But I don't see how split pipes alone would lead to heavy condensation from the exhaust and rough idling? (Assuming that they're related and atypical).
As I said I'm still looking into it... It was more of a panic/worst case scenerio needed post...
DTYPE said:
GT/Schueymcfee?
GreenV8s is completly correct, you must get this checked by a specialist who has diagnosed and fixed these engines before, they will carry out the mentioned block test that effectively shows up combustion gasses in the coolant and will confirm HGF, we have done quite a few of the early V8's now, once stripped the gaskets normally look to be in good condition but close inspection reveals a slight distortion of the ring around the cylinder allowing a passage for coolant to enter the cylinder.
When they are caught early the car will often start and idle fine if left for a few days then once warmed up a missfire may develope on idle or once shut down & left for a bit then restarted it will miss due to the pressure in the cooling system forcing a volume of water into the cylinder, this gives the white smoke.
Leaving it running like this will only cause potential further damage to the head, you may be able to work out which cylinder is affected by inspecting the plugs - they can tell you quite a bit from a quick once over.
Regards
Dan
Elite & Performance Jags (Derbyshire)
Cheers for that mate.GreenV8s is completly correct, you must get this checked by a specialist who has diagnosed and fixed these engines before, they will carry out the mentioned block test that effectively shows up combustion gasses in the coolant and will confirm HGF, we have done quite a few of the early V8's now, once stripped the gaskets normally look to be in good condition but close inspection reveals a slight distortion of the ring around the cylinder allowing a passage for coolant to enter the cylinder.
When they are caught early the car will often start and idle fine if left for a few days then once warmed up a missfire may develope on idle or once shut down & left for a bit then restarted it will miss due to the pressure in the cooling system forcing a volume of water into the cylinder, this gives the white smoke.
Leaving it running like this will only cause potential further damage to the head, you may be able to work out which cylinder is affected by inspecting the plugs - they can tell you quite a bit from a quick once over.
Regards
Dan
Elite & Performance Jags (Derbyshire)
When you say "close inspection reveals a slight distortion of the ring around the cylinder allowing a passage for coolant to enter the cylinder.", you are refering to the HG being distorted yes?
Your statement about the symptoms sounds eerily familiar. As I said though I guess I've still got a fair bit of looking at it to do before I decide it's HG. It's off the road until I decide what to do next.
I've also got the coolant leak and had the tests done but everything seems fine. In another post somewhere I read about a coolant leak from a pipe near the expansion tank or somewhere and it only leaks when hot and is practically untraceable but thats my next move. As for the dodgy tick it might be also linked to the very good point made by greenv8
GT I do have a good 4.0Lt engine with all new gaskets as well as the head gaskets, the later ones they fit to the 4.2Lt
If want to speak to Tom he will confirm condition, or he will fit for yo but if I remember you are the other end of the UK
Could always have a chat about the other mods
If want to speak to Tom he will confirm condition, or he will fit for yo but if I remember you are the other end of the UK
Could always have a chat about the other mods
jkennyd said:
I've also got the coolant leak and had the tests done but everything seems fine. In another post somewhere I read about a coolant leak from a pipe near the expansion tank or somewhere and it only leaks when hot and is practically untraceable but thats my next move. As for the dodgy tick it might be also linked to the very good point made by greenv8
Just to clarify, on mine it was the pipe that runs from the expansion tank header, which takes expanding water overflow, down to the extra expansion tank hidden under the front wing in front of the nearside tyre (if I remember correctly).The pipe is only the thickness of a pencil. I first noticed the loss of coolant after getting a new gearbox fitted to the car. The garage hadn't put this pipe back into the right location and it was emptying to ground rather than into the bottle. Then, when I noticed this and put the pipe where it should have been, it still lost coolant, albeit more slowly, which is when I realised the connector up at the header tank was cracked.
Replaced... sorted!
Piersman2 said:
jkennyd said:
I've also got the coolant leak and had the tests done but everything seems fine. In another post somewhere I read about a coolant leak from a pipe near the expansion tank or somewhere and it only leaks when hot and is practically untraceable but thats my next move. As for the dodgy tick it might be also linked to the very good point made by greenv8
Just to clarify, on mine it was the pipe that runs from the expansion tank header, which takes expanding water overflow, down to the extra expansion tank hidden under the front wing in front of the nearside tyre (if I remember correctly).The pipe is only the thickness of a pencil. I first noticed the loss of coolant after getting a new gearbox fitted to the car. The garage hadn't put this pipe back into the right location and it was emptying to ground rather than into the bottle. Then, when I noticed this and put the pipe where it should have been, it still lost coolant, albeit more slowly, which is when I realised the connector up at the header tank was cracked.
Replaced... sorted!
NormanD said:
GT I do have a good 4.0Lt engine with all new gaskets as well as the head gaskets, the later ones they fit to the 4.2Lt
If want to speak to Tom he will confirm condition, or he will fit for yo but if I remember you are the other end of the UK
Could always have a chat about the other mods
If the engine does turn out to be shagged you'll be the first person I call mate thanks.If want to speak to Tom he will confirm condition, or he will fit for yo but if I remember you are the other end of the UK
Could always have a chat about the other mods
In terms of other mods I've got to hold out until at least the end of the summer before raiding the bank balance. I'm applying to go back to university (must be mental)... So many modification wanted..So little cash.
Spending the weekend doing the checks recommended above and then looking for someone local who knows what they're doing then!
Thanks guys.
Edited by G_T on Tuesday 10th March 10:17
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