Passat 130 TDi - Overboost Engine Code Fault
Discussion
Hi - Are there any technicions out there help me with this one?
I have a 2004/5 Passat B5 130 TDi.
Was recently serviced at my VW dealer. Took it away, drove 80 miles home, gave it to the Mrs for a week, covered another 80 miles. Drove it myself another 40 with a caravan in tow. Then noticed blue smoke in rear view mirror on pulling away.
Checked the oil - good half inch over max on the stick. Got it back to the dealer and excess oil removed.
However, its still smoking and I am getting an engine management fault (I have a VAG-COM):-
1 Fault Found:
17965 - Charge Pressure Control: Positive Deviation
P1557 - 35-10 - - - Intermittent
I am new to the VAG-COM, but have found some useful measuring blocks and notice that at idle the MAF target is 250 but fluctuates to 400. Also, logging on a run, the MAP sensor reading (I think its that - called Manifold Pressure on VAG-COM)is consistently higher than target. If pushed, will go into Limp Mode/engine management light, but the above fault code is the same whether pushed hard into limp mode or not.
What is the most likely cause of this? Could the oil over-fill have caused these symptoms? (Smoke yes, but the other problems too?)
The car was running fine before the service !!
I have a 2004/5 Passat B5 130 TDi.
Was recently serviced at my VW dealer. Took it away, drove 80 miles home, gave it to the Mrs for a week, covered another 80 miles. Drove it myself another 40 with a caravan in tow. Then noticed blue smoke in rear view mirror on pulling away.
Checked the oil - good half inch over max on the stick. Got it back to the dealer and excess oil removed.
However, its still smoking and I am getting an engine management fault (I have a VAG-COM):-
1 Fault Found:
17965 - Charge Pressure Control: Positive Deviation
P1557 - 35-10 - - - Intermittent
I am new to the VAG-COM, but have found some useful measuring blocks and notice that at idle the MAF target is 250 but fluctuates to 400. Also, logging on a run, the MAP sensor reading (I think its that - called Manifold Pressure on VAG-COM)is consistently higher than target. If pushed, will go into Limp Mode/engine management light, but the above fault code is the same whether pushed hard into limp mode or not.
What is the most likely cause of this? Could the oil over-fill have caused these symptoms? (Smoke yes, but the other problems too?)
The car was running fine before the service !!
It needs a turbo.
The oil overfill might well be the cause of the smoke. It will be nothing to do with the overboost. That is quite a common fault and at the main dealers, Audi for me, we usually replace the turbo for that. You need to check the N75 and all the vacuum pipes etc, but when they go you dont get enough boost, when you get to much 99% of the time its the Turbo.
We arent aloud to take turbo's aparts, But In the real word I would suggest you look into having the turbo rebuilt. It is a variable vain turbo and the vains and or the actuator that control them get stuck, which causes this problem. I assume you recently purchased the vehicle, because its very common when its intermittent, for people to see that fault code, know a turbo is £1000 and sell the car.
You can drive around the problem usually, by keeping the revs up. Pulling full throttle from low rpm will bring it on more, thats how we test them.
Any questions post back I can go on for hours about turbos
The oil overfill might well be the cause of the smoke. It will be nothing to do with the overboost. That is quite a common fault and at the main dealers, Audi for me, we usually replace the turbo for that. You need to check the N75 and all the vacuum pipes etc, but when they go you dont get enough boost, when you get to much 99% of the time its the Turbo.
We arent aloud to take turbo's aparts, But In the real word I would suggest you look into having the turbo rebuilt. It is a variable vain turbo and the vains and or the actuator that control them get stuck, which causes this problem. I assume you recently purchased the vehicle, because its very common when its intermittent, for people to see that fault code, know a turbo is £1000 and sell the car.
You can drive around the problem usually, by keeping the revs up. Pulling full throttle from low rpm will bring it on more, thats how we test them.
Any questions post back I can go on for hours about turbos
Does this overboost condition manifest itself as a Limp Mode (Engine sees too high boost due to sticking turbo vanes and goes into self protection) - and engine will run but appears to have no boost? Engine then appears reset and back to normal on next key-on? I have had this on 110TDi Seat Leon - but have read about the sticking turbo vane issue and have started really driving the car hard. The fault has to date, not reapperead. It isn't flagging DTC's through a standard code reader - why is this, and do I need to Vag-Com the car to see any fault codes? I'm second guessing overboost condition at the moment, but other epople are suggesting a failing MAF.
Edited by FWDRacer on Tuesday 28th April 09:29
Tame Technician said:
It needs a turbo.
The oil overfill might well be the cause of the smoke. It will be nothing to do with the overboost. That is quite a common fault and at the main dealers, Audi for me, we usually replace the turbo for that. You need to check the N75 and all the vacuum pipes etc, but when they go you dont get enough boost, when you get to much 99% of the time its the Turbo.
We arent aloud to take turbo's aparts, But In the real word I would suggest you look into having the turbo rebuilt. It is a variable vain turbo and the vains and or the actuator that control them get stuck, which causes this problem. I assume you recently purchased the vehicle, because its very common when its intermittent, for people to see that fault code, know a turbo is £1000 and sell the car.
You can drive around the problem usually, by keeping the revs up. Pulling full throttle from low rpm will bring it on more, thats how we test them.
Any questions post back I can go on for hours about turbos
Hi TT,The oil overfill might well be the cause of the smoke. It will be nothing to do with the overboost. That is quite a common fault and at the main dealers, Audi for me, we usually replace the turbo for that. You need to check the N75 and all the vacuum pipes etc, but when they go you dont get enough boost, when you get to much 99% of the time its the Turbo.
We arent aloud to take turbo's aparts, But In the real word I would suggest you look into having the turbo rebuilt. It is a variable vain turbo and the vains and or the actuator that control them get stuck, which causes this problem. I assume you recently purchased the vehicle, because its very common when its intermittent, for people to see that fault code, know a turbo is £1000 and sell the car.
You can drive around the problem usually, by keeping the revs up. Pulling full throttle from low rpm will bring it on more, thats how we test them.
Any questions post back I can go on for hours about turbos
Had the car from new. It was running fine, got serviced, oil over-filled (unknown to me), driving 150 miles (last 40 with caravan up long hill at 50MPH - giving it some!). Starts to smoke pulling away. Tinkered around with the intercooler pipes that are easy to get to (cleaned out), nothing else, car then gets overboost when driven hard. AA came out confirmed I had not done anything daft with vac pipes etc. Oil was drained down by the dealer to the correct level, but still smoking.
I have checked the vac pipes (replaced as a precaution), changed the AMM and MAP, all to no avail and no change in symptons at all. Sticky vanes seems more likley now. However, puzzled by the smoke. Could a failed oil seal and subsequent smoke/oil contamination cause the sticky vanes? I am looking for something that caused both, they happend so close together.
I have a turbo refurb company lined up when I can get the car off the road for a week, but clearly need to be sure. If I get the Turbo off, what would I see if the oil seals are gone and/or the vanes sticking?
Will running the car with the smoke cause me more problems? Likely to do 120 miles per week and will be for at least another 3 weeks before I can do this - in normal driving the overboost is not a problem - only happens when you go to sustained max in 3rd or 4th gear. If I never checked my mirrors, I might not even know I had any problem at all!
Google "Innotec Turbo Cleaner" and stand back when the results pour in 
.
Every VAG engined car forum has detail of people that are using this product, cleaning out turbo's to cure the sticking vane issue. At around £30 this is worth a shot before replacing the whole turbo (££'s) - I hope this helps.
Also - what has your dealer said about the incompetance and over fill? Just curious as I'd be asking them to be footing part of the bill if Turbo failure has been instigated by the, ahem, service actions. Cannot get the staff
.Every VAG engined car forum has detail of people that are using this product, cleaning out turbo's to cure the sticking vane issue. At around £30 this is worth a shot before replacing the whole turbo (££'s) - I hope this helps.
Also - what has your dealer said about the incompetance and over fill? Just curious as I'd be asking them to be footing part of the bill if Turbo failure has been instigated by the, ahem, service actions. Cannot get the staff
Edited by FWDRacer on Wednesday 6th May 07:50
I was 99% sure your overboost fault was the turbo just from the fault code and your description of symptoms, if you have now changed the MAP and MAF (Mas Air Flow) sensors then thats really all thats left.
If I was working on your car the way I would confirm its the turbo is to road test while monitoring the boost pressure with 5052 (proper VAG Com) it gives you the ECU's target value and the engines actually boost pressure in real time, Typically an overboosting engine gives 2500mb when it should have 2000mb or so. To prove its mechanically stuck and not a vacuum issue you can disconnect and plug the vacuum pipe at the turbo actuator and repeat the test, if the boost is then too low or within target values then it is a vacuum fault not the turbo itself.
Your can also use a vacuum pump on the actuator and see if it moves freely or jurks, but as you cant see what happening inside, thats not the greatest test. Often the actuator moves perfectly but the vanes are still stuck inside.
Regarding why it started doing this after an overfill of oil. Well you probably wont believe me, but its got nothing to do with it, purely coincidence. The vanes may have started to stick because a road test at service included a good clear out, first time the cars been given the full rev range in 3rd and 4th for some time for example, but this would have happen to you as soon as you towed a caravan up hill so not really anyone's fault, just bad luck.
I only just realised it was you with the clutch judder too. You have been quite unlucky, I take it you've done too many miles to get any good will etc ??
Just to confirm, when you say smoke, do you mean think black diesel smoke, or blue/white oil smoke
Blue smoke is always more worrying, but As long as you keep a close eye on the oil level I think it would be fine to keep using it while its smokes. It could well be a turbo oil seal, but that is pretty unusually. Sadly there is no guarantee the fault with the boost pressure and the smoke are from the same cause.
If its black smoke then it could just be the clearing out the carbon from the engine, with increased boost pressure this would be more evident than normal, or it could have a split intercooler or boost leak somewhere as well.
If I was working on your car the way I would confirm its the turbo is to road test while monitoring the boost pressure with 5052 (proper VAG Com) it gives you the ECU's target value and the engines actually boost pressure in real time, Typically an overboosting engine gives 2500mb when it should have 2000mb or so. To prove its mechanically stuck and not a vacuum issue you can disconnect and plug the vacuum pipe at the turbo actuator and repeat the test, if the boost is then too low or within target values then it is a vacuum fault not the turbo itself.
Your can also use a vacuum pump on the actuator and see if it moves freely or jurks, but as you cant see what happening inside, thats not the greatest test. Often the actuator moves perfectly but the vanes are still stuck inside.
Regarding why it started doing this after an overfill of oil. Well you probably wont believe me, but its got nothing to do with it, purely coincidence. The vanes may have started to stick because a road test at service included a good clear out, first time the cars been given the full rev range in 3rd and 4th for some time for example, but this would have happen to you as soon as you towed a caravan up hill so not really anyone's fault, just bad luck.
I only just realised it was you with the clutch judder too. You have been quite unlucky, I take it you've done too many miles to get any good will etc ??
Just to confirm, when you say smoke, do you mean think black diesel smoke, or blue/white oil smoke
Blue smoke is always more worrying, but As long as you keep a close eye on the oil level I think it would be fine to keep using it while its smokes. It could well be a turbo oil seal, but that is pretty unusually. Sadly there is no guarantee the fault with the boost pressure and the smoke are from the same cause.
If its black smoke then it could just be the clearing out the carbon from the engine, with increased boost pressure this would be more evident than normal, or it could have a split intercooler or boost leak somewhere as well.
Hi
sorry to muscle in but im having this very same problem with a "a4 130 tdi sport on a 51 plate"
the car seems to be slow to boost around 2500rpm when it used to boost around 1700rpm
then after 5- 10 minutes from cold no power ignition off then on again and power again for a very short period if you gun it it seems to last longer but you cant drive like that for long and thats not how i like to drive all the bottom end grunt has gone and then limp mode
what i ahve done so far is bought a recon turbo, replaced 2of the valves a white topped one and a black topped one and ive also changed the ecu temp sensor as this was reading 60 degrees at 87on the guage
im now stuck as 2 what todo
even to the point where i got onto the turbo people and got them to send another replaced and still nothing any ideas
im going mad
many thanks in advance paul
sorry to muscle in but im having this very same problem with a "a4 130 tdi sport on a 51 plate"
the car seems to be slow to boost around 2500rpm when it used to boost around 1700rpm
then after 5- 10 minutes from cold no power ignition off then on again and power again for a very short period if you gun it it seems to last longer but you cant drive like that for long and thats not how i like to drive all the bottom end grunt has gone and then limp mode
what i ahve done so far is bought a recon turbo, replaced 2of the valves a white topped one and a black topped one and ive also changed the ecu temp sensor as this was reading 60 degrees at 87on the guage
im now stuck as 2 what todo
even to the point where i got onto the turbo people and got them to send another replaced and still nothing any ideas
im going mad
many thanks in advance paul
paul20v said:
Hi
sorry to muscle in but im having this very same problem with a "a4 130 tdi sport on a 51 plate"
the car seems to be slow to boost around 2500rpm when it used to boost around 1700rpm
then after 5- 10 minutes from cold no power ignition off then on again and power again for a very short period if you gun it it seems to last longer but you cant drive like that for long and thats not how i like to drive all the bottom end grunt has gone and then limp mode
what i ahve done so far is bought a recon turbo, replaced 2of the valves a white topped one and a black topped one and ive also changed the ecu temp sensor as this was reading 60 degrees at 87on the guage
im now stuck as 2 what todo
even to the point where i got onto the turbo people and got them to send another replaced and still nothing any ideas
im going mad
many thanks in advance paul
You got the opposite end of the scale there (not enough boost), buy the sound of it, you are getting no vacuum at the turbo actuator. You perhaps should have checked this before replacing the turbo etc. You need to check the operation of the N75 (one of the solenoids you replaced) and the vacuum pipes between it and the turbo actuator. Not the same fault as Thirsty 33.sorry to muscle in but im having this very same problem with a "a4 130 tdi sport on a 51 plate"
the car seems to be slow to boost around 2500rpm when it used to boost around 1700rpm
then after 5- 10 minutes from cold no power ignition off then on again and power again for a very short period if you gun it it seems to last longer but you cant drive like that for long and thats not how i like to drive all the bottom end grunt has gone and then limp mode
what i ahve done so far is bought a recon turbo, replaced 2of the valves a white topped one and a black topped one and ive also changed the ecu temp sensor as this was reading 60 degrees at 87on the guage
im now stuck as 2 what todo
even to the point where i got onto the turbo people and got them to send another replaced and still nothing any ideas
im going mad
many thanks in advance paul
hi
definately checked all the vac pipes
have renewed all of them and all solenoids
on start up actuater gets sucked up so vaccum definately getting there
the diagnostic machine says boost to high and over limit
switch off switch on and you get boost again but its still got to much lag
disconnect the actuater the car feels smoother boosts and limp mode again
this is why i am pulling my hair out
any ideas may be the replacement turbo is no good
ps. my local audi dealer told me it was the turbo after there diagnostic thats why i changed it .
definately checked all the vac pipes
have renewed all of them and all solenoids
on start up actuater gets sucked up so vaccum definately getting there
the diagnostic machine says boost to high and over limit
switch off switch on and you get boost again but its still got to much lag
disconnect the actuater the car feels smoother boosts and limp mode again
this is why i am pulling my hair out
any ideas may be the replacement turbo is no good
ps. my local audi dealer told me it was the turbo after there diagnostic thats why i changed it .
OK from that, I would have to say its either the vacuum pipes are plumbed up wrong and the EGR vacuum is going to the turbo actuator by mistake. (Have seen this once but unlikely)
OR its the boost pressure sensor is faulty and falsely reporting an overboost, which isnt actually occurring. If the car was really overboosting I really dont see that you would have any lag. And it definitely wouldn't overboost with the vacuum pipe disconnected from the turbo, assuming the new turbo is good.
The sensor is usually fitted in the top of the intercooler. Assuming you have Vag com or similar, What reading do you get from the pressure sensor when you drive the car, with the actuator pipe connected and disconnected??? Idealy you would want a mechanical boost gauge fitted also to compare the actually boost pressure from the mechanical gauge with what the sensor is saying.
OR its the boost pressure sensor is faulty and falsely reporting an overboost, which isnt actually occurring. If the car was really overboosting I really dont see that you would have any lag. And it definitely wouldn't overboost with the vacuum pipe disconnected from the turbo, assuming the new turbo is good.
The sensor is usually fitted in the top of the intercooler. Assuming you have Vag com or similar, What reading do you get from the pressure sensor when you drive the car, with the actuator pipe connected and disconnected??? Idealy you would want a mechanical boost gauge fitted also to compare the actually boost pressure from the mechanical gauge with what the sensor is saying.
right i will check with a mechanical guage against the machine (bosch kts 650)
there is a sensor on the right of the head in a inlet pipe whats that i thought that was the pressure sensor if not what is it measuring
im assuming the actuator should be pulled on start up by vacuum and then gets regulated from there ?
if this is correct i would assume the pipes are correct they have not been altered and it gave trouble after a long run down the motorway no pipes have been swapped only renwed like for like with genuine hose
im sorry for keeping on and you have better things to do but any help is greatfully recieved
and i also realise remote diagnosis is experiance plus some guess work as your not actually looking at the job
many thanks
paul
there is a sensor on the right of the head in a inlet pipe whats that i thought that was the pressure sensor if not what is it measuring
im assuming the actuator should be pulled on start up by vacuum and then gets regulated from there ?
if this is correct i would assume the pipes are correct they have not been altered and it gave trouble after a long run down the motorway no pipes have been swapped only renwed like for like with genuine hose
im sorry for keeping on and you have better things to do but any help is greatfully recieved
and i also realise remote diagnosis is experiance plus some guess work as your not actually looking at the job
many thanks
paul
Edited by paul20v on Sunday 10th May 21:32
Pics might help, (not your car, but basically the same.)
I think the sensor your talking about is the Mass Air Flow sensor. MAF.
http://www.dieselgeek.com/images/DCP_4575.JPG
I mean the Turbo boost pressure or MAP sensor. Number 11.
http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47b9df36b3127ccec6...
I think the sensor your talking about is the Mass Air Flow sensor. MAF.
http://www.dieselgeek.com/images/DCP_4575.JPG
I mean the Turbo boost pressure or MAP sensor. Number 11.
http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47b9df36b3127ccec6...
Thirsty33, did you get the problem sorted? and can you confirm if you are heading down the turbo route. My simptoms are the exactly the same as yours, even down to the problem starting shortly after towing my caravan, just want to confirm if it is the turbo or not, I have read other posts and they talk about the N75 solonoin/sensor?
B18OGY said:
Thirsty33, did you get the problem sorted? and can you confirm if you are heading down the turbo route. My simptoms are the exactly the same as yours, even down to the problem starting shortly after towing my caravan, just want to confirm if it is the turbo or not, I have read other posts and they talk about the N75 solonoin/sensor?
Fathers had his replaced for £150 from a specialist (incluisve of labour and VAGCOM)save your money and by some 10k boost or any other de-coker.
the rod on the VNT gets 'furred' up and leaves the turbo 'over boosting' causing the error code and safe mode.
Matt
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