When did ESP save you?
Discussion
I doubt this thread will get many posts, most people won't admit they got it wrong, and needed saving.
I've had the light flashing quite a few times, it tends to "save you" before you need to react yourself, allthough it does a lot more in the background without you realizing, when you're driving hard. I've only ever switched mine off, on track, just to see the difference.
When I first bought the Audi new, I did give the esp/tc etc a workout after watching this and believe me, it works.
I've had the light flashing quite a few times, it tends to "save you" before you need to react yourself, allthough it does a lot more in the background without you realizing, when you're driving hard. I've only ever switched mine off, on track, just to see the difference.
When I first bought the Audi new, I did give the esp/tc etc a workout after watching this and believe me, it works.
I've had a PSM event in a 996 C2 at Bedford in torrential rain. Carried too much speed through a sequence of bends due to not slowing down enough on the way in and thought I could trail the throttle in third instead of the instructor recommended 2nd. Plenty of low down torque tipped it over the edge going into the last bend and I did the traditional muppet response of coming off the throttle, lightening the back end. As it started to come around and clearly felt like we were about to swap ends, the PSM kicked in and the car was swaying around like crazy on the suspension. It did however tie things down nicely and we made it around the bend comfortably.
Was so impressed that we didn't spin that I've had an ESP equivalent device on every car I've ever had since.
Was so impressed that we didn't spin that I've had an ESP equivalent device on every car I've ever had since.
It cost me a car.
if you turn the ESP off, it doesnt turn the ABS off.
Therefore in snow, on a hill, it releases the brakes and leaves them off.
Any attempt at cadence braking is greeted with the wheels rotating as if you were a passenger. Which i suppose i was.
A rubbish system.
The only positive is that the car was written off, so I got a new one.
if you turn the ESP off, it doesnt turn the ABS off.
Therefore in snow, on a hill, it releases the brakes and leaves them off.
Any attempt at cadence braking is greeted with the wheels rotating as if you were a passenger. Which i suppose i was.
A rubbish system.
The only positive is that the car was written off, so I got a new one.
ESP didn't cost you the car, ABS did.
OK, so ABS is a part of the ESP package, but ABS was what failed to stop you. All the stability programmes in the world can't make you defy the laws of physics.
ESP has saved me a few times. Yesterday I was out for a drive in the RS4, making good progress. I went over a small crest with a very slight LH bend & at almost full throttle. What I hadn't spotted was a fuel spill & I drifted across the road. I lifted off, steered back and the back started to come out. That little light on the dash blinked a few times and straightened the car out keeping all four wheels pointing the right way. Thank god for ESP (and quattro too!)!
After that, and after the previous episode, I vowed never to buy a powerful RWD car without some kind of stability programme fitted.
OK, so ABS is a part of the ESP package, but ABS was what failed to stop you. All the stability programmes in the world can't make you defy the laws of physics.
ESP has saved me a few times. Yesterday I was out for a drive in the RS4, making good progress. I went over a small crest with a very slight LH bend & at almost full throttle. What I hadn't spotted was a fuel spill & I drifted across the road. I lifted off, steered back and the back started to come out. That little light on the dash blinked a few times and straightened the car out keeping all four wheels pointing the right way. Thank god for ESP (and quattro too!)!
After that, and after the previous episode, I vowed never to buy a powerful RWD car without some kind of stability programme fitted.
Interesting replies, personally as UVB I won't buy a car without ESP now. Im glad my car had ESP in the snowy weather we had, and it was great fun too watching it work. I went down a hill in the snow, all the other cars were going sideways, my car went down straight and stopped when I wanted it to, it seemed to know what was going on. The system is amazing, not rubbish because it's rare when its not wanted. Have you seen the Bugatti Veyron in the fifth gear video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zlyGW9mx6zo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zlyGW9mx6zo
I don't think ESP has saved me but ABS definately did when a car came over the centre barrier of the motorway and landed in front of me. It was raining and I steered around it whilst braking as hard as I have ever done.
ESP light in the A6 has never come on, but I guess quattro may be more sure footed. My G33 has no driver aids and heaps of power through the rear wheels...do i want ESP for it?....No!
I believe that ESP runs the risk of fooling the driver so that he doesnt really know what the car is doing. Does this make him safer? To my mind no, at some point he may push the car to the level where physics will beat ESP and the driver wont know how he got there.
ESP light in the A6 has never come on, but I guess quattro may be more sure footed. My G33 has no driver aids and heaps of power through the rear wheels...do i want ESP for it?....No!
I believe that ESP runs the risk of fooling the driver so that he doesnt really know what the car is doing. Does this make him safer? To my mind no, at some point he may push the car to the level where physics will beat ESP and the driver wont know how he got there.
blueg33 said:
I believe that ESP runs the risk of fooling the driver so that he doesnt really know what the car is doing. Does this make him safer? To my mind no, at some point he may push the car to the level where physics will beat ESP and the driver wont know how he got there.
Good point - I remember a copper talking at my local IAM meeting about how ABS and high level braking lights in cars had just caused more and closer tailgating! Maybe ESP needs to have a buzzer to remind the driver that they have just exceeded their ability...
The trouble is, a big torquey engine in a FWD car would regularly be triggering the programme, plus I have read (in here) that some cars have more invasive ESP/DSC/etc than others.
blueg33 said:
I believe that ESP runs the risk of fooling the driver so that he doesnt really know what the car is doing. Does this make him safer? To my mind no, at some point he may push the car to the level where physics will beat ESP and the driver wont know how he got there.
If someone knows ESP is there, then they'll know what it does and they'll know the limits of the car (hopefully). As for those that don't know, they'll most likely overstep the boundary as they think driving hard previously and controlling it was there skill, until they defy the laws of physics. Only 2% of drivers knows what ESP is apparently. Its not fool proof but overall its definitely a good system.VAG1 said:
If someone knows ESP is there, then they'll know what it does and they'll know the limits of the car (hopefully). As for those that don't know, they'll most likely overstep the boundary as they think driving hard previously and controlling it was there skill, until they defy the laws of physics. Only 2% of drivers knows what ESP is apparently. Its not fool proof but overall its definitely a good system.
Fair point, and it probably prevenst accidents, but people can drive beyond their ability or inappropriately for the conditions and never learn. I would prefer an emphasis on better driver training and better awareness of what is going on rather than insulation from the realities.Once - numpty pulled right in front of me from a side road, lorry coming the other way. Stamped on the brakes and steered for the tiny gap between numpty and on-coming lorry - car felt (and sounded) very odd as I assume various wheels where braked and un-braked to keep me heading where I wanted, but, much to my amazement it worked - it certainly helped me perform a stunt I don't believe I could have done otherwise.
Oh I remembered another interesting one. Last year I went on an R8 day at Rockingham with Audi. I've done plenty of these types of things over the years so am fairly competent at them and know what to expect. The surprise at this event though was that they didn't sit a driver in the car with you. Instead, they had an instructor in a lead car with a radio system and the rest of you followed in a snake behind with him calling the shots and giving tips through the radio as you went along. An interesting situation that ordinarily wouldn't have worried me too much, except for the fact that I'm a particularly bad passenger, and in this case I was of course paired up with Mrs UVB.
Now I happen to think that she's a pretty good driver (she's a patient listener and might have learned some pearls amongst the tirades of back seat whining she's had to endure over the years). However, while she's been on similar events in the past she's never, ever driven herself on one so it was down to her judgement and my "helpful tips" to keep us safe yet fast. Overall, she did extremely well (far, far better than my first time on track) but there was one point where she fell a little behind the snake by taking the wrong line through a corner. In pressing harder to regain the distance on the straight, she then arrived too fast at the next corner and was on the brakes going into the bend. I could see this about to happen, but felt it wasn't going to be dangerous so I just kept quiet. As I'd expected, the ESP kicked in and kept the car under control. More significantly, she realised immediately what she'd done wrong and could see the effects of the ESP kicking in. It's given her tremendous confidence in the safety capabilities of ESP now that she knows what it does and I also feel much more confident in her abilities as a result. In both our cases, we've had ESP moments on the track in a safe environment. I like to think it's made us better drivers, as we're both now fully aware of what ESP can do and how it will feel if it kicks in, which must be better than experiencing it for the first time in a genuinely dangerous situation on the confines of a two way public road system.
Having had someone hit me head on after they lost control and arrived sideways in the middle of the road in front of me, I'm very much aware that having ESP on my car would not have helped me at all in that incident as I had nowhere to go anyway. If the other guy had it however, I might not have had a trip to hospital in a helicopter....
Now I happen to think that she's a pretty good driver (she's a patient listener and might have learned some pearls amongst the tirades of back seat whining she's had to endure over the years). However, while she's been on similar events in the past she's never, ever driven herself on one so it was down to her judgement and my "helpful tips" to keep us safe yet fast. Overall, she did extremely well (far, far better than my first time on track) but there was one point where she fell a little behind the snake by taking the wrong line through a corner. In pressing harder to regain the distance on the straight, she then arrived too fast at the next corner and was on the brakes going into the bend. I could see this about to happen, but felt it wasn't going to be dangerous so I just kept quiet. As I'd expected, the ESP kicked in and kept the car under control. More significantly, she realised immediately what she'd done wrong and could see the effects of the ESP kicking in. It's given her tremendous confidence in the safety capabilities of ESP now that she knows what it does and I also feel much more confident in her abilities as a result. In both our cases, we've had ESP moments on the track in a safe environment. I like to think it's made us better drivers, as we're both now fully aware of what ESP can do and how it will feel if it kicks in, which must be better than experiencing it for the first time in a genuinely dangerous situation on the confines of a two way public road system.
Having had someone hit me head on after they lost control and arrived sideways in the middle of the road in front of me, I'm very much aware that having ESP on my car would not have helped me at all in that incident as I had nowhere to go anyway. If the other guy had it however, I might not have had a trip to hospital in a helicopter....
Simond001 said:
It cost me a car.
if you turn the ESP off, it doesnt turn the ABS off.
Therefore in snow, on a hill, it releases the brakes and leaves them off.
Any attempt at cadence braking is greeted with the wheels rotating as if you were a passenger. Which i suppose i was.
A rubbish system.
The only positive is that the car was written off, so I got a new one.
how is this different from a car with ABS (like every car) and no ESP ?if you turn the ESP off, it doesnt turn the ABS off.
Therefore in snow, on a hill, it releases the brakes and leaves them off.
Any attempt at cadence braking is greeted with the wheels rotating as if you were a passenger. Which i suppose i was.
A rubbish system.
The only positive is that the car was written off, so I got a new one.
PSM on BoxS saved my car once, coming out of a carwash (tyres still wet) pulling out of junction, rear nearside hit a big flat manhole cover, woah, arse back in line before I could correct it. Think I would have caught it but no way in time to stop the rear to smack into the side of the car parked opposite.
Never had to use ESP in ager on RS4 though, it was fantastically controlled on the snow earlier in the year and great fun on abandoned London streets. Can ESP brake each wheel independently like PSM?
Edited by Adam B on Monday 18th May 20:17
I've had it help me out on a wet roundabout with a bit of diesel on the road - I'd dialled in loads of opposite lock though and it just about helped me recover it.
I wouldn't like to say if it would have managed if I'd just panicked and not done anything though.
Playing around off road I find the Audi system is probably a bit over-enthusiastic - it will happily sap power when you want to power out of a corner and you know the car will be fine!
I wouldn't like to say if it would have managed if I'd just panicked and not done anything though.
Playing around off road I find the Audi system is probably a bit over-enthusiastic - it will happily sap power when you want to power out of a corner and you know the car will be fine!
I think the VW system is the same, intrusive which is good at times and not so good at others. Playing off road in the snow, turning off the ESP made no difference on how the stability management corrected the car, only the traction control turned off. PSM is just another name for it I think, there all made by Bosche aren't they?
brisel said:
Yes, it can. Have a look at the Fifth Gear video in the link on FJ's reply (second one down).
ESP will cut power and/or brake any wheel it chooses to to keep the car aimed at where the steering wheels are pointed.
thanks, not a fan of the cutting power thing - especially when changing gear on full throttle on the RS so like the fact you can rein it in / turn it offESP will cut power and/or brake any wheel it chooses to to keep the car aimed at where the steering wheels are pointed.
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