turbo failure -Tame Technician can you help?
Discussion
I hope someone can, a chap at work has a 2.0TDI 140bhp octiva, his turbo has failed at 65K. Even though this chap is of the older generation, does purely motorway driving, and doesn't drive fast he is suprised the turbo has given up. I've noticed this quite common with the 2.0TDI unit, but the question is why has the turbo failed and what is causing these failures?
cheers
NST
cheers
NST
The turbo failed on my car about 6 months ago, it was on the Nurburgring - DOH! cue the huge bill to get recovered! I know of a few people who have had failures just on the way to work though too.
Turbos have a service life, my turbo went at 50000 miles, others go at 20k, or over 100k. Certain brands seem stronger than others, the KKK turbo on my Fabia vRS was one of the brands that seem to have more issues than say Garrett (which I have fitted now).
Other main issue is what oil has been used in the engine, as it HAS to be the correct specification for the VW engines. Servicing goes hand in hand with the oil spec. too.
Turbos have a service life, my turbo went at 50000 miles, others go at 20k, or over 100k. Certain brands seem stronger than others, the KKK turbo on my Fabia vRS was one of the brands that seem to have more issues than say Garrett (which I have fitted now).
Other main issue is what oil has been used in the engine, as it HAS to be the correct specification for the VW engines. Servicing goes hand in hand with the oil spec. too.
Regular servicing, with right oil... go gently when engine is cold... gently after a long run just before you stop... and let it idle before you turn off the engine...
They say this sort of turbo care will prolong it's life... or reduce the chance of failure...
It seems most production cars are turbo these days, TDI popularity no doubt helping to bring this about...
They say this sort of turbo care will prolong it's life... or reduce the chance of failure...
It seems most production cars are turbo these days, TDI popularity no doubt helping to bring this about...
There's generally no advice given on how to look after a turbocharger. I for one always leave the engine idling for 30 seconds after a drive to allow the turbo to spool down and minimise any wear to the unit, yet almost everyone else I know just sweves into their parking space and shuts off with the turbo off-boost but still chiming away at nn krpm. It really does shorten their life between rebuilds.
skymaster said:
Regular servicing, with right oil... go gently when engine is cold... gently after a long run just before you stop... and let it idle before you turn off the engine...
They say this sort of turbo care will prolong it's life... or reduce the chance of failure...
It seems most production cars are turbo these days, TDI popularity no doubt helping to bring this about...
We have a 2006 VW Touran with the 2.0TDI (140) engine - turbo went at 36,000 miles despite shell helix VW approved oil all the way through, air filter changed every 8,000 miles, etc as above. Thank goodness I took out an extended VW warranty.They say this sort of turbo care will prolong it's life... or reduce the chance of failure...
It seems most production cars are turbo these days, TDI popularity no doubt helping to bring this about...
I did laugh when the main dealer said that there might be an inspection fee. but they quickly dropped this when I pointed out that the Turbo was leaking substantial amounts of oil and that VW do not repair turbos, therefore turbo replacement was required, therefore no further inspection was necessary QED.
NST said:
I hope someone can, a chap at work has a 2.0TDI 140bhp octiva, his turbo has failed at 65K. Even though this chap is of the older generation, does purely motorway driving, and doesn't drive fast he is suprised the turbo has given up. I've noticed this quite common with the 2.0TDI unit, but the question is why has the turbo failed and what is causing these failures?
cheers
NST
Define failed???cheers
NST
Noisey - failing bearing
Oil pooring into the exhaust housing - Bearing/seal failure
Overboosting + going into limp home - Variable vains siezed.
Exploded or immpellers/shaft siezed solid. - No oil pressure to turbo.
Have seen all of these at various times on various vehicles. The different failures would be for different reasons. The most common failure is the variable fains sticking or siezing casuing overboost. This can be (but not always) be cause by the driver not using the full rev range and only potering about. Was a thread on this only the other day, have a look though my posts.
If its totaly destroyed or the actual impellors siezed it means the engine had no oil pressure, oil pump failure or no oil in the engine etc.
Most of the TDI turbos are made by Garrett, not particually cheap but typical mass production units, turbos just fail from time to time. I would say we get more bearing failures and noisey turbos on the transvers mounted 2.0TDI (BKD in the A3) posibly the same as the skoda.
I cant say yeah they fail because of this, because there is no reason they just fail, thats waht turbos can do, sorry.
Just to prove a point I googled TDCI (generic ford diesel) turbo failure, got 6000+hits, my turbos failued turbo blow 70k turbo overboost, all the usual failures, its not a VAG problem. If anything it the manufacters "Garrett for example" being forced to supply units for mass production at a certain price, perhaps if that price was higher they would last longer.
http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&safe=off&...
When I was a boy and we had RS turbos and Cosworths , 60,000 out of a stock turbo was considered good, they were almost considered consumable, the technology hasnt really moved on that much in 20 years, we just have better management and variable vains now.
I've had numerous turbo'd cars, none of which were owned by me from new. All did >100K, some well over, and they were all on their original turbos. My current steed has done 105K now so I'm hoping it'll be the same (sadly the clutch didn't last as long as in the other cars).
There's a great fear about them because they cost a fortune to replace, which is natural I suppose. But I do wonder how many really fail 'early' compared to the number that go on and on for 200K+.
There's a great fear about them because they cost a fortune to replace, which is natural I suppose. But I do wonder how many really fail 'early' compared to the number that go on and on for 200K+.
Escort2dr said:
I've had numerous turbo'd cars, none of which were owned by me from new. All did >100K, some well over, and they were all on their original turbos. My current steed has done 105K now so I'm hoping it'll be the same (sadly the clutch didn't last as long as in the other cars).
There's a great fear about them because they cost a fortune to replace, which is natural I suppose. But I do wonder how many really fail 'early' compared to the number that go on and on for 200K+.
Is a good point, I dont have many people come in saying, "my turbos fine, still going, cars lovely actually, nothing wrong with it, why am I here??!!??."There's a great fear about them because they cost a fortune to replace, which is natural I suppose. But I do wonder how many really fail 'early' compared to the number that go on and on for 200K+.
I just see them, when they are broken.
To post a positive:
1.9 TDi Octavia 4x4, 135k miles, no turbo issues
1.9 TDi Octavia, 65k miles, no turbo issues
1.9 TDi Fabia vRS, 62k miles, no turbo issues
2.0 TDi Octavia Scout, 21k miles, no turbo issues
1.9 TDi Octavia, 101k miles, no turbo issues
2.5 TDi A6 (chipped), 215k miles, no turbo issues
1.9 TDi Octavia 4x4, 135k miles, no turbo issues
1.9 TDi Octavia, 65k miles, no turbo issues
1.9 TDi Fabia vRS, 62k miles, no turbo issues
2.0 TDi Octavia Scout, 21k miles, no turbo issues
1.9 TDi Octavia, 101k miles, no turbo issues
2.5 TDi A6 (chipped), 215k miles, no turbo issues
A related question: Do the turbo oil feed pipes get clogged up??? I wondered if this might be a cause of premature turbo failure?
I know when the turbo blew on my last car they replaced this pipe along with the turbo... although they wouldn't convey if it was clogged or not... The car was serviced more frequently than the service schedule specified using correct Castrol oil... so I didn't think oil pipes would get clogged with sludge...
I know when the turbo blew on my last car they replaced this pipe along with the turbo... although they wouldn't convey if it was clogged or not... The car was serviced more frequently than the service schedule specified using correct Castrol oil... so I didn't think oil pipes would get clogged with sludge...
skymaster said:
A related question: Do the turbo oil feed pipes get clogged up??? I wondered if this might be a cause of premature turbo failure?
I know when the turbo blew on my last car they replaced this pipe along with the turbo... although they wouldn't convey if it was clogged or not... The car was serviced more frequently than the service schedule specified using correct Castrol oil... so I didn't think oil pipes would get clogged with sludge...
Have seen totaly blocked oil feed pipes on old S3 and TT (1.8T) but never on the others, I always check them when replacing a turbo, if there is any doubt or if the car is older (say 5 years or more) I'd probably price one up anyway.I know when the turbo blew on my last car they replaced this pipe along with the turbo... although they wouldn't convey if it was clogged or not... The car was serviced more frequently than the service schedule specified using correct Castrol oil... so I didn't think oil pipes would get clogged with sludge...
My RS6 has just hit 90k and is still on original units so its worth noting that they are strong if looked after properly (good thing too as you wouldnt want to replace 2 turbos).
Turbo life is very much dependant on what is being demanded from it and the conditions it is given to work in. Good oil discipline will prolong the life of the turbo; if you only drive it 5k a year and it says to change oil every 10k then have it changed at 5k to keep it a yearly rate (even VW longlife needs changing). Doing this helps to keep any swarf out of the system. Good cooling and efficient intercoolers also help, along with the good practice of proper cooling before switching off. Observe your coolant levels regularly and change it if it looks anything other than perfect. Performance mapping will increase temperatures in the turbo and surrounding components so perishing occurs more quickly. If you have it mapped, then you should consider reducing the intervals between oil changes / coolant changes as excessive heat and pressure will damage oil over time.
Another good idea, as mentioned briefly above is to give the car a proper blast every once in a while. Really go to town on it and keep an eye on the rear view mirror. My old shogun 2.5d never missed a beat, and every month i made a point of pushing the engine to the max on the motorway at least once. Rear view mirror bit: at first you will see clouds of soot come from the exhaust, then as it clears its lungs you'll be back to clear air again. Placid driving is good for economy, but to keep a car fit you have to stretch its legs from time to time, just like the human body.
Turbo life is very much dependant on what is being demanded from it and the conditions it is given to work in. Good oil discipline will prolong the life of the turbo; if you only drive it 5k a year and it says to change oil every 10k then have it changed at 5k to keep it a yearly rate (even VW longlife needs changing). Doing this helps to keep any swarf out of the system. Good cooling and efficient intercoolers also help, along with the good practice of proper cooling before switching off. Observe your coolant levels regularly and change it if it looks anything other than perfect. Performance mapping will increase temperatures in the turbo and surrounding components so perishing occurs more quickly. If you have it mapped, then you should consider reducing the intervals between oil changes / coolant changes as excessive heat and pressure will damage oil over time.
Another good idea, as mentioned briefly above is to give the car a proper blast every once in a while. Really go to town on it and keep an eye on the rear view mirror. My old shogun 2.5d never missed a beat, and every month i made a point of pushing the engine to the max on the motorway at least once. Rear view mirror bit: at first you will see clouds of soot come from the exhaust, then as it clears its lungs you'll be back to clear air again. Placid driving is good for economy, but to keep a car fit you have to stretch its legs from time to time, just like the human body.
I seem to remember the new hose for my old TDI A4 was about £30... TT, can you tell us how much time & effort goes into installing a new oil feed pipe? I guess for those of us worried about turbo failure (surely there must be more important things to lay awake worrying about) it might be an idea to look into changing the feed hose...
The oil feed hose or pipe is rarely the cause of turbo failure.
If you are concerned take it off and blow it out with an air line, or flush some petrol through it.
On the 1.8T A4's and A6's they are a pain to get on and off, but on the TDI's not so bag. A4 and A6 always going to be harder than A3/golf because the pipe rounds round the back of the engine.
If you are concerned take it off and blow it out with an air line, or flush some petrol through it.
On the 1.8T A4's and A6's they are a pain to get on and off, but on the TDI's not so bag. A4 and A6 always going to be harder than A3/golf because the pipe rounds round the back of the engine.
Tame Technician said:
The oil feed hose or pipe is rarely the cause of turbo failure.
If you are concerned take it off and blow it out with an air line, or flush some petrol through it.
On the 1.8T A4's and A6's they are a pain to get on and off, but on the TDI's not so bag. A4 and A6 always going to be harder than A3/golf because the pipe rounds round the back of the engine.
Hats off you are bloody helpful!If you are concerned take it off and blow it out with an air line, or flush some petrol through it.
On the 1.8T A4's and A6's they are a pain to get on and off, but on the TDI's not so bag. A4 and A6 always going to be harder than A3/golf because the pipe rounds round the back of the engine.
I saw this on another forum:-
"according to VW, the 2.0tfsi doesn't allow you to cook the oil if you shut it off hot. it continues to circulate coolant to the turbo after the engine is off, so i don't think that is the case.
"To prevent carbon build-up on the turbine shaft of the turbocharger, an auxiliary coolant pump provides additional coolant circulation for a certain time after the engine is shut off hot. The pump forces the lower temperature coolant against the normal direction of flow. The coolant flows from through the turbocharger to the engine block and back to the cooler."
-The 2.0L FSI Turbocharged Engine Design and Function"
Does this mean they are building in a cool down period so that modern day turbo engines don't need to idle after a trip? If this is true it means I have been wasting time and fuel sat outside my house with the engine idling for a minute or two...
"according to VW, the 2.0tfsi doesn't allow you to cook the oil if you shut it off hot. it continues to circulate coolant to the turbo after the engine is off, so i don't think that is the case.
"To prevent carbon build-up on the turbine shaft of the turbocharger, an auxiliary coolant pump provides additional coolant circulation for a certain time after the engine is shut off hot. The pump forces the lower temperature coolant against the normal direction of flow. The coolant flows from through the turbocharger to the engine block and back to the cooler."
-The 2.0L FSI Turbocharged Engine Design and Function"
Does this mean they are building in a cool down period so that modern day turbo engines don't need to idle after a trip? If this is true it means I have been wasting time and fuel sat outside my house with the engine idling for a minute or two...
skymaster said:
I saw this on another forum:-
"according to VW, the 2.0tfsi doesn't allow you to cook the oil if you shut it off hot. it continues to circulate coolant to the turbo after the engine is off, so i don't think that is the case.
"To prevent carbon build-up on the turbine shaft of the turbocharger, an auxiliary coolant pump provides additional coolant circulation for a certain time after the engine is shut off hot. The pump forces the lower temperature coolant against the normal direction of flow. The coolant flows from through the turbocharger to the engine block and back to the cooler."
-The 2.0L FSI Turbocharged Engine Design and Function"
Does this mean they are building in a cool down period so that modern day turbo engines don't need to idle after a trip? If this is true it means I have been wasting time and fuel sat outside my house with the engine idling for a minute or two...
Thats all about cooling and temperature. Its a nice design touch, and will reduce wear, but cars have had litle water pumps like that for years. Its not new to the TFSI."according to VW, the 2.0tfsi doesn't allow you to cook the oil if you shut it off hot. it continues to circulate coolant to the turbo after the engine is off, so i don't think that is the case.
"To prevent carbon build-up on the turbine shaft of the turbocharger, an auxiliary coolant pump provides additional coolant circulation for a certain time after the engine is shut off hot. The pump forces the lower temperature coolant against the normal direction of flow. The coolant flows from through the turbocharger to the engine block and back to the cooler."
-The 2.0L FSI Turbocharged Engine Design and Function"
Does this mean they are building in a cool down period so that modern day turbo engines don't need to idle after a trip? If this is true it means I have been wasting time and fuel sat outside my house with the engine idling for a minute or two...
The main benefit of a deliberatly cooling down and warming up or a period of idle before turning off it to do with oil pressure. Turbo shafts turn upto 150,000 rpm. If you blast upto a parking space and turn the engine off, the turbo shaft continues to spin for 30 secs or so, because the engine has been turned off there is no oil pressure to the shaft to protect it. Like wise when stone cold the oil isnt able to protect the turbo properly. For long turbo life warm up the oil first, and drive at very low rpm or allow to idle for a bit before you switch off.
Gassing Station | Audi, Seat, Skoda & VW | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff