Braaaaakkkkkkeeeeeesssssssss!!!!
Discussion
I want to stop quicker and more consistantly when on the track (ie less fade).
I already have braided hoses.
My brakes are all up together and working well. I just want them to work better. (See my large post here for proof that my standard brakes are good!).
What are the options available to me if I keep the standard size wheels?
I have read the thread below already to save you pointing it out to me. Its mainly about fluid though.
www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?p=1&f=9&t=87836&h=0
>>> Edited by DustyC on Wednesday 2nd June 10:46
I already have braided hoses.
My brakes are all up together and working well. I just want them to work better. (See my large post here for proof that my standard brakes are good!).
What are the options available to me if I keep the standard size wheels?
I have read the thread below already to save you pointing it out to me. Its mainly about fluid though.
www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?p=1&f=9&t=87836&h=0
>>> Edited by DustyC on Wednesday 2nd June 10:46
It's also about gettin decent pads .... I run red dot at the moment but with be changing back to Pagids ASAP ...
I will be changing the standard disks for grooved ones, maybe slightly larger.
My brakes at Donington (renowned as a brake killer) were fine with the current set up and although I experienced a small amount of fade after 5 or 6 laps I still braking for Foggy's as late as I did on the 1st lap....
I will be changing the standard disks for grooved ones, maybe slightly larger.
My brakes at Donington (renowned as a brake killer) were fine with the current set up and although I experienced a small amount of fade after 5 or 6 laps I still braking for Foggy's as late as I did on the 1st lap....
I run standard calipers and standard sized disks in my racing griffith with Ferodo DS3000 Pads. V8 Sports & Classics have a lot of experience with Griffith Brakes, and advised me that with the right pads and right disk material, that they were perfectly capable.
The racing regulations allow brake upgrades, subject to a weight penalty. Most of the competition have upgraded brake calipers and disk size.
My experience so far is that with the work Noel at V8 has done on standard brakes, my cars braking performance is an advantage for me over the others.
The racing regulations allow brake upgrades, subject to a weight penalty. Most of the competition have upgraded brake calipers and disk size.
My experience so far is that with the work Noel at V8 has done on standard brakes, my cars braking performance is an advantage for me over the others.
Options with standard wheels:
1. 5.1 fluid, fast road pads. Good enough for the likes of Robin Harris who's won just about every sprint championship going.
2. As above but with grooved/drilled discs.
3. As above but with larger 285mm front discs and spacers to re-use existing callipers.
4. As above but replace front callipers with 4 pot APs/Hi-Spec/Brembo etc.
Some have managed to fit a 300 mm front disk in a standard wheel but often have to shave a bit off the calliper or the inside of the wheel.
Naturally, it comes down to how much you want to spend! Interesting though that some excellent drivers are content with the standard set up and 5.1 fluid/fast road pads. Hope this helps.
1. 5.1 fluid, fast road pads. Good enough for the likes of Robin Harris who's won just about every sprint championship going.
2. As above but with grooved/drilled discs.
3. As above but with larger 285mm front discs and spacers to re-use existing callipers.
4. As above but replace front callipers with 4 pot APs/Hi-Spec/Brembo etc.
Some have managed to fit a 300 mm front disk in a standard wheel but often have to shave a bit off the calliper or the inside of the wheel.
Naturally, it comes down to how much you want to spend! Interesting though that some excellent drivers are content with the standard set up and 5.1 fluid/fast road pads. Hope this helps.
Greenstuff pads currently.
Not sure on what fluid I have. The braided hoses wre fitted as an upgrade by Peninsula.
How much difference doe the 5.1 fluid make? Is it just a case of it not boiling?
What are the effects of brake fluid boiling? Can it be felt?
Id be interested in fitting slightly bigger drilled/grooved discs and sticking with the current calipers to start with just to keep the costs down a bit.
I did find a lot of my braking problems were actully operator error, which improved with a bit of tuition as the day went on.
Braking hard to start with and then easing off seemed to do me a lot of good. Quite tricky to get the timing right when coming up to a corner at 125MPH though!
(This really was on private land this time!)
More tuition already booked.
Silverstone next
Not sure on what fluid I have. The braided hoses wre fitted as an upgrade by Peninsula.
How much difference doe the 5.1 fluid make? Is it just a case of it not boiling?
What are the effects of brake fluid boiling? Can it be felt?
Id be interested in fitting slightly bigger drilled/grooved discs and sticking with the current calipers to start with just to keep the costs down a bit.
I did find a lot of my braking problems were actully operator error, which improved with a bit of tuition as the day went on.
Braking hard to start with and then easing off seemed to do me a lot of good. Quite tricky to get the timing right when coming up to a corner at 125MPH though!
(This really was on private land this time!)
More tuition already booked.
Silverstone next
k77-widow maker said:
Take a look at mine then, though I guess Andy has already shown you then on your last vist APM
...What do they look like, I have not seen them, but Andy tells me they feel awesome!
Oh where was your recent trackday Dusty??
On the way to Andy maybe ;-)
They look fecking fantastic mate. Andy showed me them almost as soon as I got there.
They werent quite good enough though, sorry about the tree shaped dent in the front!
Did a Ridedrive thingy on and airfield.
LA - You have to put your hands out in front of you at arms length, clench your fists and then shout the thread title out to get its true meaning!
DustyC said:
Greenstuff pads currently.
Not sure on what fluid I have. The braided hoses wre fitted as an upgrade by Peninsula.
How much difference doe the 5.1 fluid make? Is it just a case of it not boiling?
What are the effects of brake fluid boiling? Can it be felt?
If you put the dent in the front of mine, then 5.1 is no good for you!!! lol
re boiling fluid....it can be felt...there is no feeling to the brakes, you just feel what the pedal banging against the bulkhead feels like.
The one and only time it happened to me, was back in God's country, coming down Harting Hill, after a rather "spirited" drive from Goodwood. Soon after the car was with Andy for my previous brake upgrade.
The best thing IMHO to do, is to get the steel hoses on with a 5.1 brake fluid change, oh and either green or red stuff pads too.
The brakes then lasted longer than I did, when I took it to Goodwood soon after.
Had a good chat with Andy about brakes on Saturday.
When it goes in for the service I think I'll go for the AP fluid he uses and whatever pads he recommends and see how it goes from there.
If I want more then I'll upgrade the discs when they wear out and possible calipers too (depending on weight of wallet at the time!).
Walking whorewhinger- I'll have to catch up with you at Le Mans.
When it goes in for the service I think I'll go for the AP fluid he uses and whatever pads he recommends and see how it goes from there.
If I want more then I'll upgrade the discs when they wear out and possible calipers too (depending on weight of wallet at the time!).
Walking whorewhinger- I'll have to catch up with you at Le Mans.
mospethm said:
I run standard calipers and standard sized disks in my racing griffith with Ferodo DS3000 Pads. V8 Sports & Classics have a lot of experience with Griffith Brakes, and advised me that with the right pads and right disk material, that they were perfectly capable.
The racing regulations allow brake upgrades, subject to a weight penalty. Most of the competition have upgraded brake calipers and disk size.
My experience so far is that with the work Noel at V8 has done on standard brakes, my cars braking performance is an advantage for me over the others.
agree with simon. i use grp n plain cosworth discs on my V8S, i've run them till they are glowing red hot with no performance loss .. i don't normally do that but was deliberately holding the epdal down to generate enough heat to try and make them fade / warp / anything really .. they just soaked it up.
decent std sized discs, pads and fluid are the way to go. I've never seen any point in big upgrades unless you're running very sticky tyres. with std road tyres you never generate the grip required to warrant bigger discs than std 500 spec.
joo
joospeed, all that you say is very relevant.
I could lock the wheels up all too easily if I wanted to at first and was learning the point at which it happened.
The only real problem was what I though to be fade but in all truth it could have been lack of knowledge on my part.
My upgrades in order are:
- Tuition: Lots of track time and tuition booked in.
- Fluid: Will be changed at next service (which going on my miles wont be too far away. Save me a space Andy!)
- Pads: as above, whatever fast road and occasional track pads Andy recommends. Red stuff I think was mentioned.
However, I can understand the want for bigger upgrades for those attending more trackdays etc. Its something I'll consider as my addiciton grows!
Thanks for all your advice everyone.
In next weeks episode of DustyC's on going perfect Griff search...
Suspension upgrades: More rock, less roll - but still good for touring. Which set up is best for.
- track without compromising ride (must be adjustable)
- cost
I could lock the wheels up all too easily if I wanted to at first and was learning the point at which it happened.
The only real problem was what I though to be fade but in all truth it could have been lack of knowledge on my part.
My upgrades in order are:
- Tuition: Lots of track time and tuition booked in.
- Fluid: Will be changed at next service (which going on my miles wont be too far away. Save me a space Andy!)
- Pads: as above, whatever fast road and occasional track pads Andy recommends. Red stuff I think was mentioned.
However, I can understand the want for bigger upgrades for those attending more trackdays etc. Its something I'll consider as my addiciton grows!
Thanks for all your advice everyone.
In next weeks episode of DustyC's on going perfect Griff search...
Suspension upgrades: More rock, less roll - but still good for touring. Which set up is best for.
- track without compromising ride (must be adjustable)
- cost
joospeed said:
I've never seen any point in big upgrades unless you're running very sticky tyres. with std road tyres you never generate the grip required to warrant bigger discs than std 500 spec.
joo
My brakes aren't standard joolz, but I seem to recall a certain 'hankering' going on a while ago......not interested any more then? wh
DustyC said:
Red stuff I think was mentioned.
Careful Dusty !! These are very hard pads and are not suitable for road use IMHO, I do know people who use them, but with significantly higher spec calipers !
You may find with these that initial bite when cold will leave you wondering ehen they will start working !
Pagid/Ferodo pads are far better than EBC pads any day in my experience. I do have a friend who runs DS3000's on the road, but they he has 4 pot calipers with them.
The other issue you will find with this type of pad is given enthusiastic use they will eat disk's very quickly.
DustyC said:
I was thinking Reds would be Ok and only yellows would cause probelms in everyday use.
I'll go with whatever APM suggests when the time comes I think.
Yellows are full race pads and a friend of mine races in stock hatch uses them. He does the warming uo lap with his foot on the nrakes to get them up to temp !!
Red's are not that bad, but they are designed for heavier cars with a lot of braking requirements.
Unless you are going nuts on the road you are a lighter car with not so much requirement.
What about the factory spider conversion, with Tuscan brakes and AP 4 pots? I presume this should be a pretty good setup?
I suppose that larger discs disipate heat better, so prevent the pads and fluid from getting so nhot in the first place.
I agree that the standard brakes when working well will lock up even hot tyres in the dry, but the concensus seems to be keeping them from overheating during prolonged use, such as track days.
Brakes convert kinetic energy (the mass of your car x its speed) into heat, so any brake, no matter its size will produce the same heat for the same amount of retartation. If you can lose the heat from the brakes quicker (more surface area / better airflow) then you will prevent them overheating.
The alternative is to use materials that will work at higher temperatures (pads / fluid / pads / disc material) but IMO this is overcoming the problem rather than curing it. It also usually follows that materails that cope with higher temperatures work less well at start up temps - hence the red / yellow stuff pad issues.
In summary, I reckon big brakes will work as well as small brakes when cold, and won't get as hot, so will continue to work well in more extreme temperatures.
I suppose that larger discs disipate heat better, so prevent the pads and fluid from getting so nhot in the first place.
I agree that the standard brakes when working well will lock up even hot tyres in the dry, but the concensus seems to be keeping them from overheating during prolonged use, such as track days.
Brakes convert kinetic energy (the mass of your car x its speed) into heat, so any brake, no matter its size will produce the same heat for the same amount of retartation. If you can lose the heat from the brakes quicker (more surface area / better airflow) then you will prevent them overheating.
The alternative is to use materials that will work at higher temperatures (pads / fluid / pads / disc material) but IMO this is overcoming the problem rather than curing it. It also usually follows that materails that cope with higher temperatures work less well at start up temps - hence the red / yellow stuff pad issues.
In summary, I reckon big brakes will work as well as small brakes when cold, and won't get as hot, so will continue to work well in more extreme temperatures.
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