Twin Carbon ACT plenum kit installation help needed!!
Discussion
help very much needed (Griffith 500);
Have bought this fantastic kit from ACT, i have send Tim an email to but the more help the better i'll hope / think;
The kit is on the car everything installed; Bosch AFM & Bosch 3.0 bar fuelpressure reg., Jenvey TPS at twin plenum, + MA Tornadochip mapped in ECU, CO trimmer installed at ECU wiring.
and...
- CO trimmer not able to set 1,8V (cat cars) but only 1,2V?
- Fuelpump not priming with ignition but 2 bosch (ecu & pump) relais are ok when we bridge/test them the pump wil prime.
- Cannot start the car, tried you have to do something!!?
- i can hear relais clicking sounds
- AFM readings ok +5V and 12V but CO trimmer not able to read 1,8V only 1,2V?
- TPS not able to set stationairy 0,33V, full open 4,5V because we cannot start the car.
- seems to be whe have a ground / negative issue all together with ignition, the pump will not prime only separate and not with ignition
- we have a spark with the plugs and we have fuel to them!
- innertia switch maybe?
what is/went wrong here i'm going crazy...???
yr help very very much appreciated
Have bought this fantastic kit from ACT, i have send Tim an email to but the more help the better i'll hope / think;
The kit is on the car everything installed; Bosch AFM & Bosch 3.0 bar fuelpressure reg., Jenvey TPS at twin plenum, + MA Tornadochip mapped in ECU, CO trimmer installed at ECU wiring.
and...
- CO trimmer not able to set 1,8V (cat cars) but only 1,2V?
- Fuelpump not priming with ignition but 2 bosch (ecu & pump) relais are ok when we bridge/test them the pump wil prime.
- Cannot start the car, tried you have to do something!!?
- i can hear relais clicking sounds
- AFM readings ok +5V and 12V but CO trimmer not able to read 1,8V only 1,2V?
- TPS not able to set stationairy 0,33V, full open 4,5V because we cannot start the car.
- seems to be whe have a ground / negative issue all together with ignition, the pump will not prime only separate and not with ignition
- we have a spark with the plugs and we have fuel to them!
- innertia switch maybe?
what is/went wrong here i'm going crazy...???
yr help very very much appreciated
Edited by MischaVisserv8 on Thursday 1st December 07:52
ha eric, thanks for yr reply but we have not checked that yet, sorry for calling but we didn't know what to do!?
we will check the tps for 5v i'll let you know and if we have the 5v then what do we have to check next?
btw when we moved the tps a bit the engine was responding but no start yet !
we will check the tps for 5v i'll let you know and if we have the 5v then what do we have to check next?
btw when we moved the tps a bit the engine was responding but no start yet !
No, I'm sorry - my phone has been dropping out of the air within 1 minute of switching it on every time since I got home from work yesterday...
No voltage to the throttle pot should not prevent the engine from starting by itself IIRC - if all else fails, the ECU should be able to run from the AMM input alone I think) - but it could give some sort of pointer about why you don't get voltage to the fuel pump from the ECU?
Without wanting to teach a granny to suck eggs - you folks do know that the fuel pump will only run when the ECU detects the engine cranking (although it of course should audibly 'prime' when switching on the ignition), right?
No voltage to the throttle pot should not prevent the engine from starting by itself IIRC - if all else fails, the ECU should be able to run from the AMM input alone I think) - but it could give some sort of pointer about why you don't get voltage to the fuel pump from the ECU?
Without wanting to teach a granny to suck eggs - you folks do know that the fuel pump will only run when the ECU detects the engine cranking (although it of course should audibly 'prime' when switching on the ignition), right?
Is the rev counter flickering whilst cranking?
The wiring to the ecu & tacho may have been disturbed whilst playing with the plenum as it joins the loom where the AFM wiring is at the 90deg elbow.
The engine should at least show some signs of life (cough & splutter maybe not start) even if the TPS is disconnected..
Take a plug out & see if it is wet to check fuel is being delivered, a noid light quickly tells you if the ecu is firing the injectors BTW.
The wiring to the ecu & tacho may have been disturbed whilst playing with the plenum as it joins the loom where the AFM wiring is at the 90deg elbow.
The engine should at least show some signs of life (cough & splutter maybe not start) even if the TPS is disconnected..
Take a plug out & see if it is wet to check fuel is being delivered, a noid light quickly tells you if the ecu is firing the injectors BTW.
many thanks to you all for yr replies so far!
have contacted eric and he spoke with tim so we are on that and will make things work!
the plugs are wet so we have fuel and the car sputters and coughs but will not start yet.
the chip is separately mapped for the car.
so we will have a go after the weekend and try to instal the old 500 chip also and check things again.
i'll let you know
have contacted eric and he spoke with tim so we are on that and will make things work!
the plugs are wet so we have fuel and the car sputters and coughs but will not start yet.
the chip is separately mapped for the car.
so we will have a go after the weekend and try to instal the old 500 chip also and check things again.
i'll let you know
The initial priming of the fuel pump does not need the trigger pulse from the distributor, just switching the ignition on should give you a couple of seconds of the pump running. If you listen to the relays you should hear both the main and fuel pump relay click in when the ignition is first switched on, then the fuel pump relay should drop out after a few seconds. The initial control of the pump relay is part of the ECU micro code running correctly, but normally if the fuel chip (that includes some ECU microcode)is damaged the pump runs all the time, not the symptoms you have.
AFM:
These are the wire colors in the loom
Red/black. Ground
Blue/Green Air flow signal
Brown Orange +12v
Blue/red CO trim value.
The CO trim wire is pretty straight forward, its simply a variable resistor to ECU ground, and has nothing to do with the AFM as such at all. If you dont connect the trim wire to the resistor you should see near 5 volts open circuit, which should drop to around 3.5 volts when you connect the resistor when its at maximum value (1k ohms I think from memory). This should then drop to 0 volts when the resistor goes down to zero ohms. I would double check you have the wiring correct, its sounds like you have some swapped wires.
The Bosch AFM needs an extra 5 volt supply wire to work, and I think the standard fix is to take a wire from the 5 volt side of the throttle pot to feed the AFM, but Ive seen a case when this pulled the 5 volts down on the throttle pot so nothing worked. You are much better off with a 5 volt voltage regulator being fed from the original 12 volt supply to the AFM, as it wont interfear with the throttle pot.
Ive never seen a case of wrong AFM wiring stopping the fuel pump from running however, the ECU just throws a fault code. Wrong AFM voltages can certainly flood the engine, but the Mark Adams chip should compensate for the different air flow to voltage response. A TVR chip will be completely wrong. It would be a good place to start with a fault code reader, to at least show the ECU is functioning as it should to start with and has a good voltage supply.
The throttle pot does not need the engine running to check it, simply open and close the throttle, but the ECU can compensate for the pot being out of adjustment to an extent, which is why the elongated holes are missing from the 14CUX set up. The voltage need to be 0.085-0.545v throttle closed 4.2-4.9v throttle open.
AFM:
These are the wire colors in the loom
Red/black. Ground
Blue/Green Air flow signal
Brown Orange +12v
Blue/red CO trim value.
The CO trim wire is pretty straight forward, its simply a variable resistor to ECU ground, and has nothing to do with the AFM as such at all. If you dont connect the trim wire to the resistor you should see near 5 volts open circuit, which should drop to around 3.5 volts when you connect the resistor when its at maximum value (1k ohms I think from memory). This should then drop to 0 volts when the resistor goes down to zero ohms. I would double check you have the wiring correct, its sounds like you have some swapped wires.
The Bosch AFM needs an extra 5 volt supply wire to work, and I think the standard fix is to take a wire from the 5 volt side of the throttle pot to feed the AFM, but Ive seen a case when this pulled the 5 volts down on the throttle pot so nothing worked. You are much better off with a 5 volt voltage regulator being fed from the original 12 volt supply to the AFM, as it wont interfear with the throttle pot.
Ive never seen a case of wrong AFM wiring stopping the fuel pump from running however, the ECU just throws a fault code. Wrong AFM voltages can certainly flood the engine, but the Mark Adams chip should compensate for the different air flow to voltage response. A TVR chip will be completely wrong. It would be a good place to start with a fault code reader, to at least show the ECU is functioning as it should to start with and has a good voltage supply.
The throttle pot does not need the engine running to check it, simply open and close the throttle, but the ECU can compensate for the pot being out of adjustment to an extent, which is why the elongated holes are missing from the 14CUX set up. The voltage need to be 0.085-0.545v throttle closed 4.2-4.9v throttle open.
Edited by blitzracing on Thursday 1st December 19:01
Hi Mischa,
I had a similar issue half a year ago. Like Eric mentioned look for a white cable connector below the elbow to AFM. I think it's for the ignition/rev counter. There is a small connector, which I accidentally disconnected during assembly. Symptom engine turns, but doesn't start.
Hope this helps.
Peter
I had a similar issue half a year ago. Like Eric mentioned look for a white cable connector below the elbow to AFM. I think it's for the ignition/rev counter. There is a small connector, which I accidentally disconnected during assembly. Symptom engine turns, but doesn't start.
Hope this helps.
Peter
thanks for the replies!
@blitzracing; thanks for yr reply and info we will get there soon i think / hope!
the afm colors you have described are the new for the bosch 4.6 afm, blue green performs a different function compare the old afm (blue / green was co?).
the 5V wire at the new afm we don't have i think we only have a connector for 4 wires the one you have mentioned but we can put a fifth wire in the connector but does it need to go to the ecu yellow but blue / red is also 5v with new afm?
the paper which comes with chip says; ecu pin 25 , 22 & 3 we have to do something to them, wires red/black , blue/red and yellow.
blue / red will be co and will be put with yellow at ecu pin number 3 according to paper with comes with Tornado chip?!
the other end from wire blue / red will be connected with the co trimmer ecu pin 22 according paper with comes with chip.
pin 25 from ecu is black / red and will also get the co trimmer tapped into?!
we all did these connections and when we put the car to ignition we hear several relais clicking but not the prime from fuelpump?
@spend we did not look at the rev counter yet we will have to try / check that.
@pete66 the white connector? we have to check that is it near the injectors and afm wiring around the plenum?
@blitzracing; thanks for yr reply and info we will get there soon i think / hope!
the afm colors you have described are the new for the bosch 4.6 afm, blue green performs a different function compare the old afm (blue / green was co?).
the 5V wire at the new afm we don't have i think we only have a connector for 4 wires the one you have mentioned but we can put a fifth wire in the connector but does it need to go to the ecu yellow but blue / red is also 5v with new afm?
the paper which comes with chip says; ecu pin 25 , 22 & 3 we have to do something to them, wires red/black , blue/red and yellow.
blue / red will be co and will be put with yellow at ecu pin number 3 according to paper with comes with Tornado chip?!
the other end from wire blue / red will be connected with the co trimmer ecu pin 22 according paper with comes with chip.
pin 25 from ecu is black / red and will also get the co trimmer tapped into?!
we all did these connections and when we put the car to ignition we hear several relais clicking but not the prime from fuelpump?
@spend we did not look at the rev counter yet we will have to try / check that.
@pete66 the white connector? we have to check that is it near the injectors and afm wiring around the plenum?
Edited by MischaVisserv8 on Friday 2nd December 07:55
The wire colors I have quoted are the old 14CUX loom, not the AFM loom. I dont know what colours are on your Bosch connector, but I will check the pin layouts when I get home in a few hours so you can be sure the connectors are correct. As a matter of interest if you car is fitted with catalysts and lamda probes, you dont need to worry about the CO trim resistor, as its not needed. Its only of use on the non catalys cars.
There are 5 connectors on the Bosch, 0 volts, 12 volts, 5 volts, airflow out and temp sensor. Traditionally you needed to connect 4 out of the 5 connectors, 0 volts, 5 volts , 12 volts and airflow as the temp sensor pin is not used. However when I bench tested the AFM I think it worked OK without a 5 volt connection, so you may just have ended up with 3 connections if no mension is made of 5 volts in the instructions.
If you do need the CO trim resistor I personnally think its very difficult to mess around with the CO resistor beside the ECU plug, its much easier to connect it to the loom at the AFM end and then tape it up once you have set it. You really do not need to worry at all about the ECU plug connections, just get the connections (and therefore voltages) correct at the AFM end.
As for the pump, the 12 volt feed to the AFM is the same as the 12 volt feed to the pump, so if the wiring is wrong it could short out the pump supply and blow a fuse. Check the 12 volt feed wire to the AFM. Like the pump, I think it should pulse on to start with, then switch off if the engine is not turning. It then comes on again as the engine turns.
There are 5 connectors on the Bosch, 0 volts, 12 volts, 5 volts, airflow out and temp sensor. Traditionally you needed to connect 4 out of the 5 connectors, 0 volts, 5 volts , 12 volts and airflow as the temp sensor pin is not used. However when I bench tested the AFM I think it worked OK without a 5 volt connection, so you may just have ended up with 3 connections if no mension is made of 5 volts in the instructions.
If you do need the CO trim resistor I personnally think its very difficult to mess around with the CO resistor beside the ECU plug, its much easier to connect it to the loom at the AFM end and then tape it up once you have set it. You really do not need to worry at all about the ECU plug connections, just get the connections (and therefore voltages) correct at the AFM end.
As for the pump, the 12 volt feed to the AFM is the same as the 12 volt feed to the pump, so if the wiring is wrong it could short out the pump supply and blow a fuse. Check the 12 volt feed wire to the AFM. Like the pump, I think it should pulse on to start with, then switch off if the engine is not turning. It then comes on again as the engine turns.
Edited by blitzracing on Friday 2nd December 12:24
Found the pinouts for the Bosch:
There are 5 pins,
1) air temp,
2) +12
3) ground
4) 5v
5) Airflow.
Pin 1 is the air filter end (air entry), round end of the socket.
Pin 5 is the Engine end (air exit) Square end of the socket.
So the wiring should be:
Pin 1 temp, not connected
Pin 2 12 volts brown orange in ECU loom
Pin 3 Ground Red black
Pin 4- this is the 5 volt feed if you are using one
Pin 5 Airflow to Blue green on the ECU loom.
This leaves the blue red wire (co trim) disconnected in the loom, so you can solder this to the CO trim resistor, and then connect the other end to ground on the red black wire. You should then be able to get the correct trim voltages.
IF YOU HAVE ANY DOUBT ABOUT THIS WIRING PLEASE POST HERE BEFORE YOU SWITCH THE POWER ON. Its very easy to damage the AFM. (less so the ECU!)
There are 5 pins,
1) air temp,
2) +12
3) ground
4) 5v
5) Airflow.
Pin 1 is the air filter end (air entry), round end of the socket.
Pin 5 is the Engine end (air exit) Square end of the socket.
So the wiring should be:
Pin 1 temp, not connected
Pin 2 12 volts brown orange in ECU loom
Pin 3 Ground Red black
Pin 4- this is the 5 volt feed if you are using one
Pin 5 Airflow to Blue green on the ECU loom.
This leaves the blue red wire (co trim) disconnected in the loom, so you can solder this to the CO trim resistor, and then connect the other end to ground on the red black wire. You should then be able to get the correct trim voltages.
IF YOU HAVE ANY DOUBT ABOUT THIS WIRING PLEASE POST HERE BEFORE YOU SWITCH THE POWER ON. Its very easy to damage the AFM. (less so the ECU!)
Edited by blitzracing on Friday 2nd December 12:45
Edited by blitzracing on Friday 2nd December 18:08
JR said:
clive f said:
rather than wait for tim to pick up his email give him a bell, he`s very helpful.
I was thinking that.thanks for the replies again
@blitzracing; we have installed conform yr reply about the afm connections so that must be ok.
afm pin 4 we have blue / red which we have tapped into yellow, pin 3 ecu connector = 5v.
on our first attempt we have connected the wrong blue / red wire we had to use blue / red pin 22 from ecu and we used another blue/red pin 13 or 14 (goes to silver bosch relais for fuelpump) in ecu connector now solved accordingly but...terminal error?
we have voltage at the afm 5v & 12,8v so afm not kaput i guess?
the car is a cat model btw.
tps set according to paper with connections on it, i can post some pictures next week to check everything?
but we may have found the second problem when checking again we heard a sound in the ecu box!?, turned out to be the chip fallen out of the socket so loose rattling in the ecu box when testing stuff and we didn't know that.
it was installed ok i was there but the ecu box did not fall etc.only hanging around at the loom so we have tried to start and make things work while chip was loose or half in socket i guess??
so now we have a problem i think; ecu & chip damaged?, so do i need a new ecu and chip and is this the issue we have?
i feel like a complete amateur / idiot, i think i am haha!?
@blitzracing; we have installed conform yr reply about the afm connections so that must be ok.
afm pin 4 we have blue / red which we have tapped into yellow, pin 3 ecu connector = 5v.
on our first attempt we have connected the wrong blue / red wire we had to use blue / red pin 22 from ecu and we used another blue/red pin 13 or 14 (goes to silver bosch relais for fuelpump) in ecu connector now solved accordingly but...terminal error?
we have voltage at the afm 5v & 12,8v so afm not kaput i guess?
the car is a cat model btw.
tps set according to paper with connections on it, i can post some pictures next week to check everything?
but we may have found the second problem when checking again we heard a sound in the ecu box!?, turned out to be the chip fallen out of the socket so loose rattling in the ecu box when testing stuff and we didn't know that.
it was installed ok i was there but the ecu box did not fall etc.only hanging around at the loom so we have tried to start and make things work while chip was loose or half in socket i guess??
so now we have a problem i think; ecu & chip damaged?, so do i need a new ecu and chip and is this the issue we have?
i feel like a complete amateur / idiot, i think i am haha!?
Edited by MischaVisserv8 on Saturday 3rd December 10:19
You can do a basic test on the ECU by plugging the TVR chip back in and seeing if the fuel pump relay clicks in and out as it should. This will show the ECU is booting up as it should. I dont know if you chip will be destroyed by falling out, its not a nice thing to do to an Eprom whilst its powered on.... You will definitely destroy the chip if its gone in the wrong way around at any point, but the ECU will normally survive. Mark Adams will do you another chip for a reasonable price if it is damaged. If the relays dont click in, then alos check the blade fuses that are part of the 14CUX loom near the relays.
What is the AFM output voltage when you just power the ignition on? I dont have an exact figure for the Bosch, but its likely to be around .8 of a volt with no airflow, and should rise quickly if you blow over the sensor in the airflow tube. This will prove the AFM is working or otherwise. If you have 8 volts on the AFM output the AFM is damaged, and it may have damaged the ECU, as the inputs should not go over 7.5 volts maximum. The operational range of the AFM input is 0 to 5 volts.
If the ECU is damaged a Range Rover v8 ECU is normally between £35 and £70 second hand, you dont need a very expensive "TVR " one.
What is the AFM output voltage when you just power the ignition on? I dont have an exact figure for the Bosch, but its likely to be around .8 of a volt with no airflow, and should rise quickly if you blow over the sensor in the airflow tube. This will prove the AFM is working or otherwise. If you have 8 volts on the AFM output the AFM is damaged, and it may have damaged the ECU, as the inputs should not go over 7.5 volts maximum. The operational range of the AFM input is 0 to 5 volts.
If the ECU is damaged a Range Rover v8 ECU is normally between £35 and £70 second hand, you dont need a very expensive "TVR " one.
many thanks blitzracing for yr technical help and info on this one very helpfull for this amateur!
we will check the old 500 chip method you have described and report.
we have checked all the fuses above battery and they are all ok!
afm voltage output at connector with ignition shows 5,5v at the blue/red wire with multimeter.
the other afm 12v output connection pin 2 brown/orange showed 12,8v? but not sure at least 12v+ we can check again.
the tornado chip from mark adams can be re-chipped for 60 pounds so not the world and if an "new" ecu will cost 50 ok also not the world but...
is/was it bad we cut the wrong blue/red wire?
at this moment everything is wired as it should be but we cannot get the fuelpump to prime with ignition that is the main issue but at the other hand maybe we have damaged the chip and we can get no readings from that?
the co trimmer we cannot set only 1.2v and for cat cars we need 1,8v according paper that comes with the tornado chip.
there is a blue / purple wire from bosch relais to ecu that is not responding but that wire is not specified?
we will check the old 500 chip method you have described and report.
we have checked all the fuses above battery and they are all ok!
afm voltage output at connector with ignition shows 5,5v at the blue/red wire with multimeter.
the other afm 12v output connection pin 2 brown/orange showed 12,8v? but not sure at least 12v+ we can check again.
the tornado chip from mark adams can be re-chipped for 60 pounds so not the world and if an "new" ecu will cost 50 ok also not the world but...
is/was it bad we cut the wrong blue/red wire?
at this moment everything is wired as it should be but we cannot get the fuelpump to prime with ignition that is the main issue but at the other hand maybe we have damaged the chip and we can get no readings from that?
the co trimmer we cannot set only 1.2v and for cat cars we need 1,8v according paper that comes with the tornado chip.
there is a blue / purple wire from bosch relais to ecu that is not responding but that wire is not specified?
Edited by MischaVisserv8 on Saturday 3rd December 12:11
First thing. the AFM voltage is far too high, if thats what the ECU is seeing it will never run!. Try disconnecting the output and just measure it on the AFM pin, without the ECU being connect at all and see what the voltage is (make sure the other 5 volt 12 volt and earth are still connected). Its should be less than a volt, and it will rise when you blow on the sensor. Check the voltage on the blue green wire to the ECU without the AFM and see what it is. The AFM is the voltage source to the ECU, not the other way round like most sensors, so Id expect the Blue green wire to have 0 volts on it without the AFM. If you have 5 volts on this wire, something is very wrong with the ECU / loom /wiring
The CO trim still bother me- check you have 5 volts on the blue red CO trim with without the resistor connected to start with. I have mixed up my own AFM wiring in the past and had the same problem as you with the CO trim, where literally I had all the wires swapped around. By the voltages you are giving me this still sounds likely. (Have you got the CO trim and AFM wires swapped?)
As for the other wires, the blue purple wire is pulled to ground by the ECU to turn the pump on. It should start at 0 volts and then go up to 12 volts when the pump relay switches off. If you dont see 12 volts ever then the 12 volts feed from the main relay is missing. However when the ECU chip fails the pump runs all the time, (so this wire will be at 0 volts all the time and the fuel pump relay is closed all the time and the pump runs all the time)- but your relays are not closing like this(?).
The CO trim still bother me- check you have 5 volts on the blue red CO trim with without the resistor connected to start with. I have mixed up my own AFM wiring in the past and had the same problem as you with the CO trim, where literally I had all the wires swapped around. By the voltages you are giving me this still sounds likely. (Have you got the CO trim and AFM wires swapped?)
As for the other wires, the blue purple wire is pulled to ground by the ECU to turn the pump on. It should start at 0 volts and then go up to 12 volts when the pump relay switches off. If you dont see 12 volts ever then the 12 volts feed from the main relay is missing. However when the ECU chip fails the pump runs all the time, (so this wire will be at 0 volts all the time and the fuel pump relay is closed all the time and the pump runs all the time)- but your relays are not closing like this(?).
again thanks blitzracing for yr info very helpfull.
so 12,8v which we have measured at pin 2 brown / orange is too high?,
and 5,5v at pin 4 is also too high?
pin 5 airflow we did not measure so don't know yet.
we will check things next week and will let you knom with some photo's etc.
many thanks and have a nice weekend
so 12,8v which we have measured at pin 2 brown / orange is too high?,
and 5,5v at pin 4 is also too high?
pin 5 airflow we did not measure so don't know yet.
we will check things next week and will let you knom with some photo's etc.
many thanks and have a nice weekend
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