All Torque and no Traction
Discussion
I am sorry to say this is another 'i have just smashed-up my TVR' thread.
My beloved Grif, of only four months ownership has been damaged to the point where i am sure it will be a total loss.
Just leaving Newcastle of the A69 in the rain, in traffic, with my 4 year old daughter in the passenger seat, and with all the 'be careful in the wet' advice still at the front of my brain. The car spun and hit the barriers up a slip road. Wasn't going particularly quick (cars in front and behind at the time) but the road was wet, and just as i past an opening in the central barrier (there was a stream of water coming from this that i hadn't seen) the car went light and spun, and spun, and spun up the slip road and backwards into the barrier, spun again and hit with the front.
Eye witnesses couldn't understand what had happened, and why the car kept slidding without slowing up. Remenber this was in traffic, at only 40mph, and i was just easing the speed up in fourth with the other traffic.
The good news is that both my daughter and i are un-injured, and we didn't hit anybody else. The Police did a first class job in getting the car recovered, the road cleared, and even gave me a lift home.
The car is a total loss, i am convinced it has turned its last (Chassis damaged at NS lower wishbone mount, rear body gone from tank back, front damaged from wheels forward, and drivers door gone). I am gutted, totally gutted. treasured the car from the day i got it, just like all it's former keepers had, and now one heavy rain shower, and one patch of standing water later.......
I have come into the office to try and take my mind of todays hapenings, but as its still the only thing i can think of, i am off home to open a bottle of red.
My beloved Grif, of only four months ownership has been damaged to the point where i am sure it will be a total loss.
Just leaving Newcastle of the A69 in the rain, in traffic, with my 4 year old daughter in the passenger seat, and with all the 'be careful in the wet' advice still at the front of my brain. The car spun and hit the barriers up a slip road. Wasn't going particularly quick (cars in front and behind at the time) but the road was wet, and just as i past an opening in the central barrier (there was a stream of water coming from this that i hadn't seen) the car went light and spun, and spun, and spun up the slip road and backwards into the barrier, spun again and hit with the front.
Eye witnesses couldn't understand what had happened, and why the car kept slidding without slowing up. Remenber this was in traffic, at only 40mph, and i was just easing the speed up in fourth with the other traffic.
The good news is that both my daughter and i are un-injured, and we didn't hit anybody else. The Police did a first class job in getting the car recovered, the road cleared, and even gave me a lift home.
The car is a total loss, i am convinced it has turned its last (Chassis damaged at NS lower wishbone mount, rear body gone from tank back, front damaged from wheels forward, and drivers door gone). I am gutted, totally gutted. treasured the car from the day i got it, just like all it's former keepers had, and now one heavy rain shower, and one patch of standing water later.......
I have come into the office to try and take my mind of todays hapenings, but as its still the only thing i can think of, i am off home to open a bottle of red.
Thanks Tiny, and thanks Alan.
The strangest thing is that i don't know what happened either. Part of the issue may just be a lack of care / experience, but i was driving so carefully, alway do when i have my daughter in, and always do when it is wet. The tyres were all like new, and at the correct pressure, and the correct Bridgestones.
May have been oil / fuel on the road, or standing water causing loss of traction, but the road is arrow-straight so who knows.....
One more statistic, but unfortunatly one less TVR Griffith i'm affraid.
The strangest thing is that i don't know what happened either. Part of the issue may just be a lack of care / experience, but i was driving so carefully, alway do when i have my daughter in, and always do when it is wet. The tyres were all like new, and at the correct pressure, and the correct Bridgestones.
May have been oil / fuel on the road, or standing water causing loss of traction, but the road is arrow-straight so who knows.....
One more statistic, but unfortunatly one less TVR Griffith i'm affraid.
Thank goodness you are OK.
This is always a danger with the big V8s. The problem is that at low revs and part throttle if you hold constant throttle the torque increases quite quickly as the revs increase. This means that as you are say accelerating gently at 40 mph in fourth, if a slight disturbence unsettles the rear wheels momentarily, as they start to slide the engine will put out more and more torque spinning them up faster and faster. It only takes a moment to get a significant amount of wheel spin, by the time you react you coul easily have 20 mph worth of wheel spin. Now consider what effect this has on the tyres. In wet conditions, the grip from the tyres drops off very sharply as they start to slide. By the time you have 20 mph worth of wheel spin at 40 mph the rear tyres are probably only producing 50% as much grip as the fronts, and since they're sliding they have no lateral resistance at all. The result is that the car becomes unstable since the back wheels keep going in a straight line and the front wheels go wherever they were pointing.
In this situation it can go past the point of no return in less than a second. Even very experienced drivers can be caught out by this, and if you are new to the car it would have been extremely difficult for you to have recognised the warning signs and reacted in time. I hope this hasn't put you off TVRs, but I hope you take the hint and get some advanced driver training, there are various well known courses including some advertised here on PH.
This is always a danger with the big V8s. The problem is that at low revs and part throttle if you hold constant throttle the torque increases quite quickly as the revs increase. This means that as you are say accelerating gently at 40 mph in fourth, if a slight disturbence unsettles the rear wheels momentarily, as they start to slide the engine will put out more and more torque spinning them up faster and faster. It only takes a moment to get a significant amount of wheel spin, by the time you react you coul easily have 20 mph worth of wheel spin. Now consider what effect this has on the tyres. In wet conditions, the grip from the tyres drops off very sharply as they start to slide. By the time you have 20 mph worth of wheel spin at 40 mph the rear tyres are probably only producing 50% as much grip as the fronts, and since they're sliding they have no lateral resistance at all. The result is that the car becomes unstable since the back wheels keep going in a straight line and the front wheels go wherever they were pointing.
In this situation it can go past the point of no return in less than a second. Even very experienced drivers can be caught out by this, and if you are new to the car it would have been extremely difficult for you to have recognised the warning signs and reacted in time. I hope this hasn't put you off TVRs, but I hope you take the hint and get some advanced driver training, there are various well known courses including some advertised here on PH.
Commiserations. Been there, done that, had the heartache. Were the front wheels absolutely straight when it happened? I lost control in similar conditions and at similar speed moving from lane one to two, and the back just snapped round on me. I can't say anything other than driver error (though in my defence the road was cold, wet and very uneven).
As has been said (and will continue to be said!) the main thing is you were both able to walk away unscathed.
I understand that the overwelming majority of TVRs totalled are in similar situations and single vehicle accidents.
sorry to hear about your misfortune but at least you and your daughter are ok.
I have had a similar moment in mine but luckily i was able to correct it.
the short wheelbase of the griff makes it very "snappy".
As others have posted on here the torque can be unforgiving in the wet, i once had wheel spin on gentle accelleration in second and changed up to third to try and put it right but it just wheelspun when i selected the next gear and it was very disconserting.
I have even locked the rears on a spirited downchange on a really hot sticky day.
I have had a similar moment in mine but luckily i was able to correct it.
the short wheelbase of the griff makes it very "snappy".
As others have posted on here the torque can be unforgiving in the wet, i once had wheel spin on gentle accelleration in second and changed up to third to try and put it right but it just wheelspun when i selected the next gear and it was very disconserting.
I have even locked the rears on a spirited downchange on a really hot sticky day.
I don't know what to say except I am very glad both of you are okay. How is your daughter? It must have been very traumatic for her. It may take a few days for this to come out.
I could happen to any of us. Most of us think we know how to handle a TVR, even in the wet, but when something happens suddenly that you're not expecting, it takes the reactions of a racing driver to prevent a disaster. Sadly a quality most of us do not possess.
I am truly sorry for you, and can only start to imagine how gutted you must feel damaging your pride and joy.
I could happen to any of us. Most of us think we know how to handle a TVR, even in the wet, but when something happens suddenly that you're not expecting, it takes the reactions of a racing driver to prevent a disaster. Sadly a quality most of us do not possess.
I am truly sorry for you, and can only start to imagine how gutted you must feel damaging your pride and joy.
It could have been any performance car I think aquaplaneing is aquaplaning and as you so rightly point out no one was hurt so that is a result, the car can be replaced.
A member of my family doing 70 mph on a motorway in a vectra v6 hit standing water it was the m58 and the car went sailing with absolutly no chance to correct , the only thing he could do was brace himself for the impact, car was totaled it happens .
I hope you get another one very soon .
I have to say I do not take my 500 Griff out if there is a hint of rain three counties away.
Simon
A member of my family doing 70 mph on a motorway in a vectra v6 hit standing water it was the m58 and the car went sailing with absolutly no chance to correct , the only thing he could do was brace himself for the impact, car was totaled it happens .
I hope you get another one very soon .
I have to say I do not take my 500 Griff out if there is a hint of rain three counties away.
Simon
SteveThanks for the kind words everybody, again the main thing was that we are both unharmed. I was a little stiff the morning after, but no change their.
The general opinion is that these cars are a handfull in the wet, something i was well aware of and that, along with having a very precious cargo ment that i was being VERY careful. i have spun the rears in the wet befor, and know what that is like, and this just felt different, and less controlable. Still don't know what happened, but that my be down to a lack of experience.
Went to have a look at the car on Sunday, just to contemplate, and recover any valuables. the car is a proper mess, and very sad to see (i have some photos but have struggled to download).
Two things may be of interest to other drivers,
firstly, the car slid sideways into the barrier and cleaned off the rear. With the rear panel gone, the drivers door opened, and sheared off. In the days of side impact protection etc, it was quite a shock to loose the door and be so exposed.
secondly, the stearing was totally disconnected from the rack. The column joint mid way down (just above the rack) was just loose agains the lower chassis member. Either this broke in the impact or this caused the accident. The guy who recovered the car indicated this is supprising especially given the relatively light, side-on nature of the frontal impact. This type of impact normally bends a stearing arm or something, but doesn't usually transfer through the rack to the column.
Finally, still not sure if i will have another TVR, the whole incident scared the sh*t out of me. I will let the dust settle and see how i feel after a day or two (or until i hear one drive past the office window!!!!)
Thanks again for all kind words.
The general opinion is that these cars are a handfull in the wet, something i was well aware of and that, along with having a very precious cargo ment that i was being VERY careful. i have spun the rears in the wet befor, and know what that is like, and this just felt different, and less controlable. Still don't know what happened, but that my be down to a lack of experience.
Went to have a look at the car on Sunday, just to contemplate, and recover any valuables. the car is a proper mess, and very sad to see (i have some photos but have struggled to download).
Two things may be of interest to other drivers,
firstly, the car slid sideways into the barrier and cleaned off the rear. With the rear panel gone, the drivers door opened, and sheared off. In the days of side impact protection etc, it was quite a shock to loose the door and be so exposed.
secondly, the stearing was totally disconnected from the rack. The column joint mid way down (just above the rack) was just loose agains the lower chassis member. Either this broke in the impact or this caused the accident. The guy who recovered the car indicated this is supprising especially given the relatively light, side-on nature of the frontal impact. This type of impact normally bends a stearing arm or something, but doesn't usually transfer through the rack to the column.
Finally, still not sure if i will have another TVR, the whole incident scared the sh*t out of me. I will let the dust settle and see how i feel after a day or two (or until i hear one drive past the office window!!!!)
Thanks again for all kind words.
The Surveyor said:Firstly glad you are both alright. Following-on your last comment may ask; do you mean the U/J halfway down the column had separated or that the actual column had fractured? Just wondering if this was the cause of your loss of control? I have had a few spirited drives even in the wet, once following a AC Ace back from Goodwood through Midhurst and on to the A3 when it was raining stair-rods, Griff seemed ok as long as I was sensible and didn’t boot it whilst not pointing straight ahead. Rich...
secondly, the stearing was totally disconnected from the rack. The column joint mid way down (just above the rack) was just loose agains the lower chassis member. Either this broke in the impact or this caused the accident.
Rich
I had a look under the off-side wheelarch, and the lower section of the column was just lying on the chassis rail. There was no U/J on the end, and no sign of any fracture. It looked like it had either let-go at the U/J clamp, or been pulled apart when the nearside front wheel fit the kerb. The rack had not been moved and was still secured to the chassis, so both the garage mechanic (ex amature racer who seamed to know what he was talking about) and i (limited mechanical knowledge) would have expected the impact to bend the steering arm before being transmitted through the steering gear.
I will ask the assesor to look at this and give his / her opinion.
I had a look under the off-side wheelarch, and the lower section of the column was just lying on the chassis rail. There was no U/J on the end, and no sign of any fracture. It looked like it had either let-go at the U/J clamp, or been pulled apart when the nearside front wheel fit the kerb. The rack had not been moved and was still secured to the chassis, so both the garage mechanic (ex amature racer who seamed to know what he was talking about) and i (limited mechanical knowledge) would have expected the impact to bend the steering arm before being transmitted through the steering gear.
I will ask the assesor to look at this and give his / her opinion.
Hi Paul,
So sorry to hear of your accident and glad you are both OK, I had a spin in my Griff last winter on some Ice going at a very slow speed ( 30 ) scared teh life out of me and we fortunate not to have a fatality as the car went through a fence the posts came in allsorts of angles. Saying that the chassis stod up to the slide well and was undamaged apart from a lower wishbone, but the body just disintergrated pretty bad see some pics here
Was shocked how quick it went and still dont know why it went 100%, but maybe a bit to early on the loud pedal?? but still not sure as it happened so quick
So Glad you are both OK
All the best
Simon
So sorry to hear of your accident and glad you are both OK, I had a spin in my Griff last winter on some Ice going at a very slow speed ( 30 ) scared teh life out of me and we fortunate not to have a fatality as the car went through a fence the posts came in allsorts of angles. Saying that the chassis stod up to the slide well and was undamaged apart from a lower wishbone, but the body just disintergrated pretty bad see some pics here
Was shocked how quick it went and still dont know why it went 100%, but maybe a bit to early on the loud pedal?? but still not sure as it happened so quick
So Glad you are both OK
All the best
Simon
The Surveyor said:Curious? If the rack had not moved then it puzzles me why the u/j would have come off the column, and I'm assuming that there was no movement of the steering wheel and column into the cabin area. Rich...
Rich - The rack had not been moved and was still secured to the chassis
sounds like the head U/J went awol.
if it broke there would be a half of it on each shaft. so looks like it came OFF
was there a U/J on either end of the shafts? either on the steering coloumn shaft or on the connection shaft which will have been the one on the chassis.
was the car checked out on purchase (since you only had it a month or 3?)
private / dealer?
if the thing fell off you would have continued on your arc round the corner as you accelerated thinking it was straightening out! would have spun like a top!!
very scary, glad your ok.
>> Edited by Guillotine on Monday 2nd August 21:50
if it broke there would be a half of it on each shaft. so looks like it came OFF
was there a U/J on either end of the shafts? either on the steering coloumn shaft or on the connection shaft which will have been the one on the chassis.
was the car checked out on purchase (since you only had it a month or 3?)
private / dealer?
if the thing fell off you would have continued on your arc round the corner as you accelerated thinking it was straightening out! would have spun like a top!!
very scary, glad your ok.
>> Edited by Guillotine on Monday 2nd August 21:50
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