Hot Start Problem , new cause
Discussion
Hi, looking for more info with dreaded hot start problem. My griff has suffered this since i bought 9 yrs ago.
Cannot use modwise kit as my 1994 500hc has the earlier wiring similar to 4.0Litre griffs. Starter solenoid wiring doesnt go anywhere near battery,,,
The thing i found is, when the car is hot and i turn the key to start, nothing happens, everything is dead, but i noticed the fans are still running. So i disconnected the fans and the car started as normal. It seems the fans draw so much current the starter cannot work. Obviously when the car was new this wasnt a problem, so whats happened to cause this. I know its not the battery as i replaced it 2 years ago and it made no difference at the time. Could it be an alarm problem. Its fitted with a Gemini 2339 , not sure wether the starter goes through this alarm. Tried tracing starter wire red/white and it seems to run from ignition to starter solenoid cannot find any breaks in wiring... Does anyone have any ideas ,,, my idea is to fit a switch on the otter wires to disconnect the fans , but this isnt curing the problem just bypassing it,,, alex
Cannot use modwise kit as my 1994 500hc has the earlier wiring similar to 4.0Litre griffs. Starter solenoid wiring doesnt go anywhere near battery,,,
The thing i found is, when the car is hot and i turn the key to start, nothing happens, everything is dead, but i noticed the fans are still running. So i disconnected the fans and the car started as normal. It seems the fans draw so much current the starter cannot work. Obviously when the car was new this wasnt a problem, so whats happened to cause this. I know its not the battery as i replaced it 2 years ago and it made no difference at the time. Could it be an alarm problem. Its fitted with a Gemini 2339 , not sure wether the starter goes through this alarm. Tried tracing starter wire red/white and it seems to run from ignition to starter solenoid cannot find any breaks in wiring... Does anyone have any ideas ,,, my idea is to fit a switch on the otter wires to disconnect the fans , but this isnt curing the problem just bypassing it,,, alex
I fitted a relay with a fused supply direct from the battery and soldered the relay operating circuit direct to the ignition switch; it bypasses any start-circuit associated with the alarm and the only bit left in the circuit is the ignition switch. I ran a new heavier cable direct to the solenoid and this all seems to work well although early days yet!
John , thanks for that , do you have a similar wiring to my 1994 500HC preserp with wiring like the 4.0litre, does the starter wire Red/White go through the alarm or straight to the starter solenoid. i have tried tracing it, i can see where it comes up behind the dash from the engine and into a connector that goes straight into the main loom. like to know if it goes to alarm or straight to ignition switch...
Hi Alex, on my preserp I'm pretty sure it goes through the alarm [mine being the original Gemini alarm] but wiring it direct to ign, switch will remove any possibility of interference from the alarm. The alarm should still disable the fuel pump and/or the part of the ignition circuit. Mine cranks better [hot or cold] than it ever did before I put the relay in. Mine started with a hot start problem which gradually ended up being a hot or cold start problem so this is what drove me to wire it the way I did, cheers, John. PS you could stick a meter on it from the solenoid end to the ign. switch; if it is o/c with the ign off then it goes through the alarm [ At least this is how I see it!
Edited by Aussie John on Tuesday 14th May 13:07
waggy said:
Hi, looking for more info with dreaded hot start problem. My griff has suffered this since i bought 9 yrs ago.
Cannot use modwise kit as my 1994 500hc has the earlier wiring similar to 4.0Litre griffs. Starter solenoid wiring doesnt go anywhere near battery,,,
The thing i found is, when the car is hot and i turn the key to start, nothing happens, everything is dead, but i noticed the fans are still running. So i disconnected the fans and the car started as normal. It seems the fans draw so much current the starter cannot work. Obviously when the car was new this wasnt a problem, so whats happened to cause this. I know its not the battery as i replaced it 2 years ago and it made no difference at the time. Could it be an alarm problem. Its fitted with a Gemini 2339 , not sure wether the starter goes through this alarm. Tried tracing starter wire red/white and it seems to run from ignition to starter solenoid cannot find any breaks in wiring... Does anyone have any ideas ,,, my idea is to fit a switch on the otter wires to disconnect the fans , but this isnt curing the problem just bypassing it,,, alex
Hi Alex, are you still having problems mate! Was that Gemini documentation I sent over to you of any use? Just a thought; I recognise that fault which is similar to what I had on the Land Rover a few years back - it ended up being the starter motor! Apparently had a faulty segment on the commutator, which when hot exacerbated itself and gave the impression of a very low battery sometimes but OK others, if any else was running forget it not apparently enough power to start!! With a faulty segment if it stops at that particular point will struggle to get full power or worst case nothing.Cannot use modwise kit as my 1994 500hc has the earlier wiring similar to 4.0Litre griffs. Starter solenoid wiring doesnt go anywhere near battery,,,
The thing i found is, when the car is hot and i turn the key to start, nothing happens, everything is dead, but i noticed the fans are still running. So i disconnected the fans and the car started as normal. It seems the fans draw so much current the starter cannot work. Obviously when the car was new this wasnt a problem, so whats happened to cause this. I know its not the battery as i replaced it 2 years ago and it made no difference at the time. Could it be an alarm problem. Its fitted with a Gemini 2339 , not sure wether the starter goes through this alarm. Tried tracing starter wire red/white and it seems to run from ignition to starter solenoid cannot find any breaks in wiring... Does anyone have any ideas ,,, my idea is to fit a switch on the otter wires to disconnect the fans , but this isnt curing the problem just bypassing it,,, alex
If not starter motor have you checked all the connections to and from starter/solenoid etc? If they are contaminated/corroded/loose etc it will cause grief, especially when other high current items are running (i.e. fans @ 25+ amps). Also as we spoke about yesterday, earths! If you need any higher current better quality cables crimped up with ring ferrules let me know? All the best, Pete
The kit has always been available for early cars, even wedges. It's the same kit but for under bonnet on early cars. The new supply is from the alternator and two cables are run to the solenoid, one supplying the solenoid and the other from the original supply to turn on the new relay.. There is no voltage drop on the original solenoid wire, so no need to replace it. The instructions are free to DIY.
Gavgavgav will certainly try boosting the engine earth, considering the amps of the starter the earth connection behind front offside wheel doesnt seem thick enough, though i want to prove fault before changing anything.
Davidbeer, i have fitted your modwise kit to my friends griff but his was a later serp engine , so no problem. My griff having the earlier wiring needs a different approach,, i just wondered why the fans drawing 25amps stops the starter working. Is the battery at cranking good enough to supply both at same time. When car was new it was ok.
When fans are not on, the starter spins up with no problem . I have the dash out at moment and can see the starter wiring: 2 large brown wires from starter motor and white/red wire from solenoid. Im going to test whats causing problem by running engine till fans run then turn off engine and using a relay connect a feed direct to the white/red and see whether it starts ok , if not it could be starter motor or earth causing problem , this will prove if its the solenoid wire or power to starter motor.
Thanks for all your suggestions.
Davidbeer, i have fitted your modwise kit to my friends griff but his was a later serp engine , so no problem. My griff having the earlier wiring needs a different approach,, i just wondered why the fans drawing 25amps stops the starter working. Is the battery at cranking good enough to supply both at same time. When car was new it was ok.
When fans are not on, the starter spins up with no problem . I have the dash out at moment and can see the starter wiring: 2 large brown wires from starter motor and white/red wire from solenoid. Im going to test whats causing problem by running engine till fans run then turn off engine and using a relay connect a feed direct to the white/red and see whether it starts ok , if not it could be starter motor or earth causing problem , this will prove if its the solenoid wire or power to starter motor.
Thanks for all your suggestions.
Not a certainty, but IIRC you may well have one of the strange cars that grounded the otter switch to the alternator tacho terminal.
Just try taking the ground side of the otter switch to the chassis & see if it makes a difference (ie short the green/pink wire at the otter switch to ground forcing the fans on but using the chassis rather than the ground that the otter connector block uses).
Just try taking the ground side of the otter switch to the chassis & see if it makes a difference (ie short the green/pink wire at the otter switch to ground forcing the fans on but using the chassis rather than the ground that the otter connector block uses).
Had the 'problem' on my Griff about 10 years ago.
Removed starter, cleaned pull-in solenoid armature and coil (I used a flap wheel sanding disc to increase the clearance by about 1.5 thou), greased gearing and refitted.
Added a 'thermal cover' (from Demon Tweeks I think) and have had NO problem since.
That includes several trips to Le Mans in temperatures nudging 40deg - yes they DO have summer there occasionally - and no starting problems at all.
If the pull-in solenoid is dragging then any drop in voltage will highlight the problem!!
Good luck
Removed starter, cleaned pull-in solenoid armature and coil (I used a flap wheel sanding disc to increase the clearance by about 1.5 thou), greased gearing and refitted.
Added a 'thermal cover' (from Demon Tweeks I think) and have had NO problem since.
That includes several trips to Le Mans in temperatures nudging 40deg - yes they DO have summer there occasionally - and no starting problems at all.
If the pull-in solenoid is dragging then any drop in voltage will highlight the problem!!
Good luck
I think ive cured it , inserted a relay behind dash, into the solenoid wire , when i start the car the relay operates and connects the battery direct to the solenoid. i had the fans running and turned on all the lights and it still started ok ,, will see how it goes.
before i done this i traced the solenoid wire and it doesnt got to the alarm just straight to ignition. maybe ignition is a bit worn and not supplying enough current.
Thanks for all your suggestions.... alex
before i done this i traced the solenoid wire and it doesnt got to the alarm just straight to ignition. maybe ignition is a bit worn and not supplying enough current.
Thanks for all your suggestions.... alex
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