Any Griff owners experienced an Esprit?
Discussion
My mate has an F reg Esprit, I think he said it was an X180 or something (sounds like a fighter aircraft to me).
In my opinion, you can't compare the two. The similarities end with the fibreglass body on a tubular steel chassis and leather trim.
I think the inside is very dated (and lacking in headroom (I'm 6'3 with a long back) it sounds like a Caterham (not a bad thing, but not a V8) isn't particularly fast, but looks more like a supercar (although from the 70s).
In my opinion, you can't compare the two. The similarities end with the fibreglass body on a tubular steel chassis and leather trim.
I think the inside is very dated (and lacking in headroom (I'm 6'3 with a long back) it sounds like a Caterham (not a bad thing, but not a V8) isn't particularly fast, but looks more like a supercar (although from the 70s).
Gazboy,
Similar question asked a while ago, these were my comments;
Yes I had an esprit 89 Turbo for 2 years and now have a Griff so my experiences have been/are:
Esprit
Performance - wait for the turbo, wait a bit more, we're off, lots of frantic gear changing, but impressive for a relatively frugal 2.2. never felt that fast to me although the figures tell you otherwise.
Looks - a real head turner
Handling - superb, very predictable, stable at high speeds but sheer width of car hinders fast B road progress, supple chassis and quite refined
Brakes - it has brakes? which pedal works those then?
Engine - doesn't suit the car, whining cam belt, sluggish off boost, plenty of lag, harsh when extended but for me very reliable.
Gearbox - feels fragile and indirect. Managed to break a few syncros and selector fork.
Noise - horrible both inside and out.
Fit and finish - generally good.
Interior - looks special but cheap switch gear/instrumentation a let down, comfortable but leg and head room limited, pedals offset to centre combined with low steering wheel so no chance of heel and toe - well not for me and I had already taken the runners off the drivers seat(you need to be under 6' really).
parts/servicing - expensive (but I bet I could have saved a fortune in running costs if Pistonheads had been around then) .
Other Lotus owners - great bunch
Best bit - you really are James Bond.
Marks out of 10 - for me 7 although I did love it.
Griff (same for Chim I imagine)
Performance - Jesus I'm going to get nicked in a minute.
looks - a real head turner.
handling - interesting and a real challenge but ultinmatley a very rewarding adrelalin pumping experience.
brakes - superb, lots of feel and very reassuring plus plenty of options for upgrades.
engine - fantastic, loads of lazy grunt, pulls like a train smoothly right upto 6,000.
Gearbox - Certainly up to the job, a little notchy but manly and very direct.
noise - fantastic all the time, burble or Nascar - you decide.
Fit and finish - generally an eye opener, it's not going to fall apart but sometimes it feels like it may do.
Interior - looks special, nice quality switch gear/instrumentation although greatly improved with a Leven shopping voucher or two.
Parts/servicing - not bad, somethings are expensive but these are not consumables and will rarely require replacing, some great independents with a passion for TVR.
Other TVR owners - great bunch.
Best bit - the roof comes off.
Marks out of 10 - for me 10 - I've had some problems but on the whole feel it's worth it.
Conclusion - if it had to be a daily driver (mine weren't/aren't) I would go for the Esprit although parking is a nightmare. Mainly for refinement, security - it's got a roof and lastly for the chassis and handling. But for a weekend, scare the crap out of yourself car it would have to be the Griff.
Obviously AIMHO
Cheers
David
>> Edited by davidn on Sunday 24th October 08:36
Similar question asked a while ago, these were my comments;
Yes I had an esprit 89 Turbo for 2 years and now have a Griff so my experiences have been/are:
Esprit
Performance - wait for the turbo, wait a bit more, we're off, lots of frantic gear changing, but impressive for a relatively frugal 2.2. never felt that fast to me although the figures tell you otherwise.
Looks - a real head turner
Handling - superb, very predictable, stable at high speeds but sheer width of car hinders fast B road progress, supple chassis and quite refined
Brakes - it has brakes? which pedal works those then?
Engine - doesn't suit the car, whining cam belt, sluggish off boost, plenty of lag, harsh when extended but for me very reliable.
Gearbox - feels fragile and indirect. Managed to break a few syncros and selector fork.
Noise - horrible both inside and out.
Fit and finish - generally good.
Interior - looks special but cheap switch gear/instrumentation a let down, comfortable but leg and head room limited, pedals offset to centre combined with low steering wheel so no chance of heel and toe - well not for me and I had already taken the runners off the drivers seat(you need to be under 6' really).
parts/servicing - expensive (but I bet I could have saved a fortune in running costs if Pistonheads had been around then) .
Other Lotus owners - great bunch
Best bit - you really are James Bond.
Marks out of 10 - for me 7 although I did love it.
Griff (same for Chim I imagine)
Performance - Jesus I'm going to get nicked in a minute.
looks - a real head turner.
handling - interesting and a real challenge but ultinmatley a very rewarding adrelalin pumping experience.
brakes - superb, lots of feel and very reassuring plus plenty of options for upgrades.
engine - fantastic, loads of lazy grunt, pulls like a train smoothly right upto 6,000.
Gearbox - Certainly up to the job, a little notchy but manly and very direct.
noise - fantastic all the time, burble or Nascar - you decide.
Fit and finish - generally an eye opener, it's not going to fall apart but sometimes it feels like it may do.
Interior - looks special, nice quality switch gear/instrumentation although greatly improved with a Leven shopping voucher or two.
Parts/servicing - not bad, somethings are expensive but these are not consumables and will rarely require replacing, some great independents with a passion for TVR.
Other TVR owners - great bunch.
Best bit - the roof comes off.
Marks out of 10 - for me 10 - I've had some problems but on the whole feel it's worth it.
Conclusion - if it had to be a daily driver (mine weren't/aren't) I would go for the Esprit although parking is a nightmare. Mainly for refinement, security - it's got a roof and lastly for the chassis and handling. But for a weekend, scare the crap out of yourself car it would have to be the Griff.
Obviously AIMHO
Cheers
David
>> Edited by davidn on Sunday 24th October 08:36
I'm in the process of selling my Esprit.
A Griff is the likely replacement.
They both have suspect build quality and offer astonishing performance for the money, but there the similarity ends.
The Esprit suffers from a thrashy, laggy and generally unsatisfactory 4 pot motor. The engine produces the performance, but lets down what is otherwise a fantastic car. The gearchange is crap, too.
It does, however, look and feel like a supercar.
I have owned over 20 different cars and bikes over the years and nothing grabs the attention of other roadusers and pedestrians like the Esprit.
In the end, however, the turbo lag and decidedly unexotic engine note proved too much of a compromise for me.
Maybe a decatted Esprit V8 is the answer, or a Ferrari 328?
The Griffith is just a good old fashioned British sportscar. It is a more modern TR6, MG BGT V8 or Healey 3000.
I think the Griff is one of the most beautiful cars ever built and is brutally fast. It is also a rag top. But it doesn't impress the proles as much.
It seems more mechanically robust than the Esprit. You are not always waiting for the turbo to spool up, so it produces more power more of the time.
It doesn't handle like the Lotus. Not many things do. But how often do you drive so close to the limits for it to matter too much?
99% of your driving is at relatively sensible speeds, rather than absolutely on the limit, so the Griffith is the better compromise.
The Esprit needs more detailed maintenance and carries more potentially big mechanical bills, but the chassis is galvanised and lasts well.
Chassis corrosion seems to be a real issue on TVRs, which is issue if buying an older Griff.
Esprit and Griff prices are both pretty robust. There is no new Esprit to depress Lotus prices and the Speed Six issues are sustaining Griff prices.
Usual buying advice applies. Buy the very best you can afford. If you keep it mint and keep the mileage reasonable, then it can be surprisingly affordable.
I bought my Esprit from a dealer over two years ago and I have just agreed a private sale for £150 less than I paid for it. The cost of ownership is in the maintenance, which is going to cost more if you get a Lotus than if you buy a TVR.
Finally, do you prefer your cars to sound like a NASCAR racer, or a hairdrier?
Cheers
Pat
A Griff is the likely replacement.
They both have suspect build quality and offer astonishing performance for the money, but there the similarity ends.
The Esprit suffers from a thrashy, laggy and generally unsatisfactory 4 pot motor. The engine produces the performance, but lets down what is otherwise a fantastic car. The gearchange is crap, too.
It does, however, look and feel like a supercar.
I have owned over 20 different cars and bikes over the years and nothing grabs the attention of other roadusers and pedestrians like the Esprit.
In the end, however, the turbo lag and decidedly unexotic engine note proved too much of a compromise for me.
Maybe a decatted Esprit V8 is the answer, or a Ferrari 328?
The Griffith is just a good old fashioned British sportscar. It is a more modern TR6, MG BGT V8 or Healey 3000.
I think the Griff is one of the most beautiful cars ever built and is brutally fast. It is also a rag top. But it doesn't impress the proles as much.
It seems more mechanically robust than the Esprit. You are not always waiting for the turbo to spool up, so it produces more power more of the time.
It doesn't handle like the Lotus. Not many things do. But how often do you drive so close to the limits for it to matter too much?
99% of your driving is at relatively sensible speeds, rather than absolutely on the limit, so the Griffith is the better compromise.
The Esprit needs more detailed maintenance and carries more potentially big mechanical bills, but the chassis is galvanised and lasts well.
Chassis corrosion seems to be a real issue on TVRs, which is issue if buying an older Griff.
Esprit and Griff prices are both pretty robust. There is no new Esprit to depress Lotus prices and the Speed Six issues are sustaining Griff prices.
Usual buying advice applies. Buy the very best you can afford. If you keep it mint and keep the mileage reasonable, then it can be surprisingly affordable.
I bought my Esprit from a dealer over two years ago and I have just agreed a private sale for £150 less than I paid for it. The cost of ownership is in the maintenance, which is going to cost more if you get a Lotus than if you buy a TVR.
Finally, do you prefer your cars to sound like a NASCAR racer, or a hairdrier?
Cheers
Pat
Yep, I've driven several.
The X180 mentioned by Starmist is the Peter Stevens updated shape, BTW, rather than the 'paper dart' original.
Depends upon the model, of course, but some later 4-pot Turbos and all of the V8's are quicker than a Griff in a straight line. You have to work the 4-pots a lot harder to get at the performance, though, because they don't have the Griffith's torque. They do have much better traction though (mid engine weight distribution!), so it probably takes less skill to get at the performance at low and medium speeds.
As Starmist says, the interiors (and arguably the exteriors) are dated, but the aesthetics are so different that it is difficult to compare them to the Griffith, anyway - down to personal preference, I guess. I personally never noticed a problem with headroom, but then I'm only 5'10" tall, and find getting in and out easier than with a hood-up Griffith because the doors on the Esprit are longer.
I've never actually owned an Esprit, but from what I've heard of them, the reliability, running costs and insurance are all comparable to the Griff. Big thing to watch is the engine - in all forms, they are much more highly stressed than a Rover V8, so they don't have the longevity. It is not unusual to see 60K cars being advertised as having had recent full engine rebuilds. The 4 pots in particular don't take kindly to being thrashed round a circuit all day, since oil system and block stiffness arenot as good as they could be (though later engines are much improved). I wouldn't recommend one if you do a lot of track days, therefore.
Gearchange is not as good as the Griff, and even the V8's don't sound especially exciting.
Where they do score is handling and steering feel - both are in a different league completely to the Griffith. Which means, given the similar/slightly better straight line performance, in the hands of a competent driver they will murder a Griffith on A- and B- road driving (or on a circuit, subject to the engine life issues mentioned above). They are also a bit more civilised to drive and more manageable in the wet, so may have the edge as an everyday road car.
As Starmist says, they are a very different type of car to the Griffith though - 'trad' Brit roadster versus junior (or in the V8's case, senior) supercar. It would be more normal for people in the market for an Esprit to be comparing against Ferrari 308/328's, Alpine A610's and Honda NSX's. As ever, you pays your money, and you takes your choice!
Edited to add: And by the way, Starmist, the similarities don't even extend to a tubular steel chassis. They are both backbone chassis, but the Esprit's is folded sheet steel. Galvanised, too, so it lasts better than the Griffiths - no pi**ing about waxoyling it every Autumn!
>> Edited by Martin_S on Sunday 24th October 09:05
The X180 mentioned by Starmist is the Peter Stevens updated shape, BTW, rather than the 'paper dart' original.
Depends upon the model, of course, but some later 4-pot Turbos and all of the V8's are quicker than a Griff in a straight line. You have to work the 4-pots a lot harder to get at the performance, though, because they don't have the Griffith's torque. They do have much better traction though (mid engine weight distribution!), so it probably takes less skill to get at the performance at low and medium speeds.
As Starmist says, the interiors (and arguably the exteriors) are dated, but the aesthetics are so different that it is difficult to compare them to the Griffith, anyway - down to personal preference, I guess. I personally never noticed a problem with headroom, but then I'm only 5'10" tall, and find getting in and out easier than with a hood-up Griffith because the doors on the Esprit are longer.
I've never actually owned an Esprit, but from what I've heard of them, the reliability, running costs and insurance are all comparable to the Griff. Big thing to watch is the engine - in all forms, they are much more highly stressed than a Rover V8, so they don't have the longevity. It is not unusual to see 60K cars being advertised as having had recent full engine rebuilds. The 4 pots in particular don't take kindly to being thrashed round a circuit all day, since oil system and block stiffness arenot as good as they could be (though later engines are much improved). I wouldn't recommend one if you do a lot of track days, therefore.
Gearchange is not as good as the Griff, and even the V8's don't sound especially exciting.
Where they do score is handling and steering feel - both are in a different league completely to the Griffith. Which means, given the similar/slightly better straight line performance, in the hands of a competent driver they will murder a Griffith on A- and B- road driving (or on a circuit, subject to the engine life issues mentioned above). They are also a bit more civilised to drive and more manageable in the wet, so may have the edge as an everyday road car.
As Starmist says, they are a very different type of car to the Griffith though - 'trad' Brit roadster versus junior (or in the V8's case, senior) supercar. It would be more normal for people in the market for an Esprit to be comparing against Ferrari 308/328's, Alpine A610's and Honda NSX's. As ever, you pays your money, and you takes your choice!
Edited to add: And by the way, Starmist, the similarities don't even extend to a tubular steel chassis. They are both backbone chassis, but the Esprit's is folded sheet steel. Galvanised, too, so it lasts better than the Griffiths - no pi**ing about waxoyling it every Autumn!
>> Edited by Martin_S on Sunday 24th October 09:05
I stand corrected! On the point of the gearshift issues on the Esprit, I can't imagine you will ever get as precise a change as having the gearbox directly beneath the lever. The best change I've every experienced was on an MX5 I had for a few years. It's all in the wrist, fnar fnar!
Yeah, the gearshift is bit rubbery and imprecise, but you get used to it. Even the Griffith gearchange is far from perfect.
The MX5 is a lovely gearchange, but the best I've ever used is the 1960's Lotus Elan. Semi-close ratio gears and the stick goes straight into the box and onto the selector forks, so you don't even have a remote selector like the Griffith to reduce the precision. Gearchange is the proverbial rifle-bolt - a lovely mechanical 'snick-snick' every time you change gear. And all that from a Ford 4-speed out of an old Corsair...so much for progress!
The MX5 is a lovely gearchange, but the best I've ever used is the 1960's Lotus Elan. Semi-close ratio gears and the stick goes straight into the box and onto the selector forks, so you don't even have a remote selector like the Griffith to reduce the precision. Gearchange is the proverbial rifle-bolt - a lovely mechanical 'snick-snick' every time you change gear. And all that from a Ford 4-speed out of an old Corsair...so much for progress!
i remeber a friend of mine telling me about lap times around castle coombe. and there were a plethora of supercars, caterhams etc.
thefastest lap time was in an esprit (v8 i think) and the pro driver said it felt a bit vague on the sterring front, but was most surprised it lapped so fast.
thefastest lap time was in an esprit (v8 i think) and the pro driver said it felt a bit vague on the sterring front, but was most surprised it lapped so fast.
jodypress said:
i remeber a friend of mine telling me about lap times around castle coombe. and there were a plethora of supercars, caterhams etc.
thefastest lap time was in an esprit (v8 i think) and the pro driver said it felt a bit vague on the sterring front, but was most surprised it lapped so fast.
If it was that vague, I would guess either the tyres were of a type poorly suited to the car, or the pressures weren't right.
Having said which, there's vague and there's vague. The Esprit isn't nearly as sharp as a Caterham or an Elise if any of that sort of thing was included in the test - it is a GT Car, when all is said and done. And if he was a pro driver, he will be used to race cars - the Esprit is like stirring porridge in comparison to, say, a Formula Ford.
On the other hand, Ford Transits have better steering feel than the Griffith, but let's not go there, shall we? ;-)
>> Edited by Martin_S on Sunday 24th October 12:59
As long as when you turn the wheel it goes round the corner, that'll do for me. You can feel when the front end's loading up and about to understeer (even if you can't tell precisely when it's going to let go) and adjust the throttle to balance the weight, and even provoke a bit of oversteer if you like.
I'm no expert in the Griff, but having done some airfield track days this year, you can really start to play around with the same gay abandon as you would in a go kart, and you really learn a lot about the car's behaviour.
I'm no expert in the Griff, but having done some airfield track days this year, you can really start to play around with the same gay abandon as you would in a go kart, and you really learn a lot about the car's behaviour.
starmist said:
I stand corrected! On the point of the gearshift issues on the Esprit, I can't imagine you will ever get as precise a change as having the gearbox directly beneath the lever. The best change I've every experienced was on an MX5 I had for a few years. It's all in the wrist, fnar fnar!
Very true Starmist. The best gearchange in the world by a country mile is an MX5.
Answering another pt. regarding A-B performance on British roads. On an A road yes, an Esprit will murder most things. On a B-road however, the quickest things in this country are Caterhams/Westies, then an Elise/Exige/VX and then an Mx. No amount of power or chassis genius will ever replace, small & compact dimensions for shifting it on smaller country roads.
Oh, you can add a proper shaped 911 to that list but only if you are *seriously* good. Add a 911 Turbo also, but only if your name is Walter Rohle, otherwise say hello to the English countryside.
The most mental driving experience of my life came at the hands of a very special 964 Turbo S lwt, on an arrow straight road from just outside Frant in East Sussex downtowards Lewes or so. Hit the boost and the acceleration was such that I was changing up as quick as I could, scared sh*less I was going to blow the engine if I was any slower on the shifts. Finally got upto top (ha! say finally, took about 4secs), and caught breathe and thought I better take a look at the speedo. 120 (and Im not saying mph or kph) indicated .
Right there and then I came to the conclusion that anybody who says a 964RS is too harsh for Uk roads is just a plain wimp
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