Depreciation: Griff vrs Tuscan
Discussion
I've my beady eye on a W reg Griff (black) at HHC where they also have a W reg Tuscan (rolex blue). Both are around £26K.
I've had absolutely enough of my VX (worst car I have ever owned) and HHC have offered to trade it against either. But, the question is, which will depreciate faster? The griff (rapidly becoming a classic) or the Tuscan (soon to be replaced with a MK2 which usually wipes a few K off immediately)?
I've had absolutely enough of my VX (worst car I have ever owned) and HHC have offered to trade it against either. But, the question is, which will depreciate faster? The griff (rapidly becoming a classic) or the Tuscan (soon to be replaced with a MK2 which usually wipes a few K off immediately)?
IMO - looks a fair dealer price for the Tuscan - but seems a lot for a 'W' Griff, I would have thought low 20s.
Providing you buy both at the right price for the car, then in theory, the Griff will hold it's value better as it is no longer made and is recognised as one of the better TVRs and a future classic.
Providing you buy both at the right price for the car, then in theory, the Griff will hold it's value better as it is no longer made and is recognised as one of the better TVRs and a future classic.
The Griff is capable of almost total maintenance indpendent of the factory (I guess even things like wishbones will be after-market manufactured once the factory stops supply). The Tuscan OTOH is far less so. Therefore, as well as for the reasons already stated, I reckon the Griff is more depreciation proof - but 26k does seem a lot for a Griff (although you're paying for the rarity of a late Griff), and as a 4 year old car becomes a 10 year old car, the price difference between it and a car four years older will diminish. Having said that, I can't really ever see a Tuscan being cheaper than a Griff - like for like.
griffter said:I'm not so sure.
I can't really ever see a Tuscan being cheaper than a Griff - like for like.
A close inspection of the prices asked for the last Griffs and the contemporary Tuscans suggests that the Griff is presently ahead of the game.
Tuscan residuals are in free fall at the moment and will continue to slide until someone offers a permanent fix for the S6 motor problem.
I hope that the fix is forthcoming, then Tuscans can be appreciated for the marvellous car that they initially appeared to be.
Until the problem is sorted, then Tuscan prices will continue to drop through the floor and immaculate Griffs will command inflated prices.
I have recently spoken to a couple of independent TVR specialists who will not currently touch a Tuscan at any price, such is the car's miserable reputation.
Like them, I wouldn't touch one with a shitty stick until the motor is fixed. When it is, I expect that S6 cars will be the bargain of the century and I'll be first in the queue.
I am presently looking for a mint late Griff, but fear that I might buy one at the top of a depreciation curve which will get a lot steeper if TVR ever get round to sorting the S6 engine problem.
Early Tuscans are at an age where they might be bought by the impecunious enthusiast, who needs to be able to fix it himself, or take it to a local garage to be maintained.
In this marketplace, the Griff has obvious strengths and the Tuscan, bereft of warranty and factory support, will continue to fall into obscurity.
Want a comparison?
Look at the Lotus Elan of the 1960s. A mint Elan Sprint is worth £15,000. It's successor, the complicated and unreliable Elite or Eclat can be had for £1,500 and the best one on the planet isn't worth £5,000.
I might be offering an extreme example, but in the Tuscan, TVR has created a car that is beyond the average enthusiast, yet the company seems unwilling or incapable of standing by its product.
Until there is clarity, then S6 cars will be viewed by me, and hundreds like me, as a wonderful car whose desirability is currently eclipsed by the perilous cost of ownership.
Whilst this situation prevails, then the Griffith is the TVR to buy.
Cheers
Pat
Again I would go for the Griffith. We bought ours 3 years ago and it has probably only lost about £1k even though we have put 20,000 miles on it.
We do have a new Tuscan convertible on order, but we are going to keep hold of the Griffith. That will stay with us until we can no longer get in and out of it. I expect the Tuscan will be replaced by something else in about 3 years.
We do have a new Tuscan convertible on order, but we are going to keep hold of the Griffith. That will stay with us until we can no longer get in and out of it. I expect the Tuscan will be replaced by something else in about 3 years.
Agreed, Pat, and the 70's generation Lotus' are a good example. Lotus went a step too far by trying to develop its own engines and suffered very similar problems to the Speed 6.
Unless TVR can come up with a cast-iron retrofit solution to the Speed 6 reliability issues, early Tuscans will be about as valuable as Lotus Elites and Eclats in a few years time.
As has already been pointed out, the Griff is low-tech enough to maintain at home, regardless of factory parts suppply, so will be a much better bet as the cars approach classic status.
Unless TVR can come up with a cast-iron retrofit solution to the Speed 6 reliability issues, early Tuscans will be about as valuable as Lotus Elites and Eclats in a few years time.
As has already been pointed out, the Griff is low-tech enough to maintain at home, regardless of factory parts suppply, so will be a much better bet as the cars approach classic status.
I really hope that TVR sorts this out.
Look at the problems there were with the first Lotus 900 series engines in the Jensen Healey back in the early 1970s.
Lotus persevered. Essentially the same motor was still being used in the last of the 4 pot Esprits in the late 1990s and was reliably putting out close to 300bhp.
I know that a lot of people advocate chucking the S6 motor into a canal and replacing it with a Ford V8, but having got this far, I would like TVR to succeed with the S6.
Unfortunately, TVR are still at the Jensen Healey stage.
Back in 1976, Dad bought one of the very first Lotus Eclats. It was an absolute heap. It was always back at the dealers with complicated problems.
He spent more time in the courtesy car than in the Lotus. He sold it on and swore that he'd never buy another Lotus. And he never did.
Ironically, he also bought a new Tuscan. A 1971 Tuscan V6 with the Ford Essex motor. He loved it and maintained that it was the best car he ever owned.
Cheers
Pat
Look at the problems there were with the first Lotus 900 series engines in the Jensen Healey back in the early 1970s.
Lotus persevered. Essentially the same motor was still being used in the last of the 4 pot Esprits in the late 1990s and was reliably putting out close to 300bhp.
I know that a lot of people advocate chucking the S6 motor into a canal and replacing it with a Ford V8, but having got this far, I would like TVR to succeed with the S6.
Unfortunately, TVR are still at the Jensen Healey stage.
Back in 1976, Dad bought one of the very first Lotus Eclats. It was an absolute heap. It was always back at the dealers with complicated problems.
He spent more time in the courtesy car than in the Lotus. He sold it on and swore that he'd never buy another Lotus. And he never did.
Ironically, he also bought a new Tuscan. A 1971 Tuscan V6 with the Ford Essex motor. He loved it and maintained that it was the best car he ever owned.
Cheers
Pat
Guys,
I also love the timeless lines of the Griff - in fact it was a drive in a P reg 500 about 4 years ago that sealed my ownership of a TVR.
However, I also love the agressive shape of the Tuscan.....so what are your opinions if the Tuscan was re-engined with a 'crate' engine?
Would people's perceptions change and love the car from the appearance point of view?
I also hope that the Sp6 engine will realise all of its potential...if only to prove that a small Brit company can still produce engineering gems. Surely we still have the expertise within 'This scepter'd Isle' to achieve this?
I also love the timeless lines of the Griff - in fact it was a drive in a P reg 500 about 4 years ago that sealed my ownership of a TVR.
However, I also love the agressive shape of the Tuscan.....so what are your opinions if the Tuscan was re-engined with a 'crate' engine?
Would people's perceptions change and love the car from the appearance point of view?
I also hope that the Sp6 engine will realise all of its potential...if only to prove that a small Brit company can still produce engineering gems. Surely we still have the expertise within 'This scepter'd Isle' to achieve this?
'Generally' original and umolested is best for long term value... (in the 'classic' car arena 
)
So keep the old engine, and ancillaries, but put another engine in for fun... is not too bad an idea.
Things that the market deems to enhance or are 'tastefully done. should not hurt it, ie for a griff , leven alloy bits, maybe some bigger brakes by a well know specialist, maybe some spyder wheels. ie nothing that takes away from the original, or is could be seen as an evolution option, ie, MOST dealers offered the leven bit as a dealer fit option.
Or as long as stuff is reversible (ie, some of those light upgrades are fairly easy to put back the original, some not.)
I had a look at Auto trader today and it was quite scarey to find 97,98,99,2000 griff's commanding quite a premium, on a similar age/mileage cerbera (baring in mind the cerbera cost more when new, when specced to those levels)
Chimarea prices stil seem to be drifting downwards, and there are a number of 19-21k tuscans (2000 model) that have a lower asking price than 98,99,2000 model year griffs. BUT there were 3-4 times as many chims than griffs made so more supply is depressing chim prices, especially as now winter.
ie there only ever seems to be around 50-60 griffs for sale, compared to around 180-220 chims.
Could be the engine issues with the tuscan similar nunbers on autotrader as the griff, but you can still get a new one, but as production as stopped on the griff and a few gett destroyed every year, less to choose from.
So on current evidence, if you want a tvr, finacially it makes sense to get a griff, as the market currently indicates that this will have the strongest values. I've been keeping an eye on griff prices (at the time for a potential trade in) for a few years, and my car at a dealer would fetch around 24k fot the last 3 years. Only the very latest newest griffs (ie last 100) have dropped, and this was probbaly due to being a bit overhyped speculation, on the last 100 cars. ie, Why pay over the odds (30k plus) when you could get a near identical (better looking original griff) at about 23 - 25 k on a 98,99,2000 plate...
Both Classic car, and Classic and Sportscars mags have been touting the griff as the future classic to have, going back to 2000.
Edited to add. a V8 S is probably also worth a look...
B
>> Edited by bjwoods on Friday 5th November 11:27
) So keep the old engine, and ancillaries, but put another engine in for fun... is not too bad an idea.
Things that the market deems to enhance or are 'tastefully done. should not hurt it, ie for a griff , leven alloy bits, maybe some bigger brakes by a well know specialist, maybe some spyder wheels. ie nothing that takes away from the original, or is could be seen as an evolution option, ie, MOST dealers offered the leven bit as a dealer fit option.
Or as long as stuff is reversible (ie, some of those light upgrades are fairly easy to put back the original, some not.)
I had a look at Auto trader today and it was quite scarey to find 97,98,99,2000 griff's commanding quite a premium, on a similar age/mileage cerbera (baring in mind the cerbera cost more when new, when specced to those levels)
Chimarea prices stil seem to be drifting downwards, and there are a number of 19-21k tuscans (2000 model) that have a lower asking price than 98,99,2000 model year griffs. BUT there were 3-4 times as many chims than griffs made so more supply is depressing chim prices, especially as now winter.
ie there only ever seems to be around 50-60 griffs for sale, compared to around 180-220 chims.
Could be the engine issues with the tuscan similar nunbers on autotrader as the griff, but you can still get a new one, but as production as stopped on the griff and a few gett destroyed every year, less to choose from.
So on current evidence, if you want a tvr, finacially it makes sense to get a griff, as the market currently indicates that this will have the strongest values. I've been keeping an eye on griff prices (at the time for a potential trade in) for a few years, and my car at a dealer would fetch around 24k fot the last 3 years. Only the very latest newest griffs (ie last 100) have dropped, and this was probbaly due to being a bit overhyped speculation, on the last 100 cars. ie, Why pay over the odds (30k plus) when you could get a near identical (better looking original griff) at about 23 - 25 k on a 98,99,2000 plate...
Both Classic car, and Classic and Sportscars mags have been touting the griff as the future classic to have, going back to 2000.
Edited to add. a V8 S is probably also worth a look...
B
>> Edited by bjwoods on Friday 5th November 11:27
What's needed is an enterprising individual to drop the BMW M3 lump (and pref. 6 speed box) into the Tuscan.
Until then I favour the Griff for the reasons above. Even then the Griff has the V8 and DIY maintainability in its favour, plus its a full convertible - all boding well for future values compared with the Tuscan.
Until then I favour the Griff for the reasons above. Even then the Griff has the V8 and DIY maintainability in its favour, plus its a full convertible - all boding well for future values compared with the Tuscan.
Having owned both I have to say I'd go for a Griff over an early Tusc on face value.
My early Tusc (W reg) was a bit of a dud all round with a constant misfire that no one could fix and the worst suspension set up I've come across. I then had a X plate which was much better until the engine popped!
Previously I'd had 2 Griffs and not a spot of bother.
I guess you pays your money and takes your choice and there's plenty on the Tusc forum about early speed six engines if you want to delve into it - which I would recommend you do.
But my thoughts for what they're worth is go for a Griff...
All the best
DC
My early Tusc (W reg) was a bit of a dud all round with a constant misfire that no one could fix and the worst suspension set up I've come across. I then had a X plate which was much better until the engine popped!
Previously I'd had 2 Griffs and not a spot of bother.
I guess you pays your money and takes your choice and there's plenty on the Tusc forum about early speed six engines if you want to delve into it - which I would recommend you do.
But my thoughts for what they're worth is go for a Griff...
All the best
DC
I agree with the comments made - the Griff is the long term safer investment not from just depreciation but also from running costs. I looked at both the Tuscan and Griff when I bought mine 18 mths ago and apart from the safety factor, for me the Griff was the winner in every aspect.
The E-type is another possible comparison similar to the Lotus but more from the asthetics point. For me, Jaguar never again got it quite so right - even with the 220.
Although biased, as I have one of the last 100, I think TVR did everything right with the changes, as they did nothing to change what is so very right with the original, but just changed the bits that IMHO, could be improved - such as the interior air vents, 5" headlights, seats etc. Although the original rear (upside down Cavalier) lights looked good, the new rear light mod was a really nice touch. It would have been so very easy to get it wrong when trying to improve something that is so good - but I think they got it right. My only criticism is the angled rear number plate which I understand was forced on TVR by the small volume manufacture legislation.
I agree with the previous comment about the greater depreciation of the last 100 - but for another reason - simply they were commanding too higher price last year when they were £30+k. They seem to now be hitting a level between £25k & £28K which is much more in-line with previous models as the nicer touches mentioned above are worth that difference.
The E-type is another possible comparison similar to the Lotus but more from the asthetics point. For me, Jaguar never again got it quite so right - even with the 220.
Although biased, as I have one of the last 100, I think TVR did everything right with the changes, as they did nothing to change what is so very right with the original, but just changed the bits that IMHO, could be improved - such as the interior air vents, 5" headlights, seats etc. Although the original rear (upside down Cavalier) lights looked good, the new rear light mod was a really nice touch. It would have been so very easy to get it wrong when trying to improve something that is so good - but I think they got it right. My only criticism is the angled rear number plate which I understand was forced on TVR by the small volume manufacture legislation.
I agree with the previous comment about the greater depreciation of the last 100 - but for another reason - simply they were commanding too higher price last year when they were £30+k. They seem to now be hitting a level between £25k & £28K which is much more in-line with previous models as the nicer touches mentioned above are worth that difference.
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