Nitrons - Much improvement?
Discussion
Straight forward Griffith / Nitron related question for you speed boffs.... In theory, if you went round a circuit in 2 minutes, to the best of your ability, in a standard Griffith, how many seconds (roughly) would you expect to knock off your laptime if you had Nitrons fitted.
Bearing in mind, same driver, same ability but different shocks?
without going 'technical', assume the circuit is average with a good mixture of straights and bends.
None at all, or loads, or somewhere in between. Obviously it depends entirely on the driver and how the car has been set up. But to give you some idea of the potential benefits I can tell you what difference it made to my V8S. I use Goodwood as a reference track because I've sprinted there over several years.
When I started sprinting at Goodwood, a good time for a standing lap on cold road tyres was in the region of 110 seconds. Gradually over several seasons we all chipped away at our times and mine came down to around 105 seconds. This is probably a good benchmark for a standard 4.0 car driven well by somebody familiar with the track. Various modifications including an extra 60 bhp, uprated brakes and suspension (not Nitron) brought this down considerably but 101 seconds seemed to be about the best I could manage. Then I fitted the Nitrons and set the car up carefully. On the next sprint I lapped under 100 seconds for the first time, and have subsequently got this down to 96 seconds with every sign that there is more to come. In other words, about £1k of suspension set up properly, gave me similar gains to something like ten times that spent on engine, transmission and brake upgrades. I don't look at it like that, I see the suspension mods as letting me exploit the extra performance from the other work, but hopefully this will give you some idea of the sort of difference it can make. But don't imagine that you can just bolt on the dampers and see the times come down; it doesn't work like that.
When I started sprinting at Goodwood, a good time for a standing lap on cold road tyres was in the region of 110 seconds. Gradually over several seasons we all chipped away at our times and mine came down to around 105 seconds. This is probably a good benchmark for a standard 4.0 car driven well by somebody familiar with the track. Various modifications including an extra 60 bhp, uprated brakes and suspension (not Nitron) brought this down considerably but 101 seconds seemed to be about the best I could manage. Then I fitted the Nitrons and set the car up carefully. On the next sprint I lapped under 100 seconds for the first time, and have subsequently got this down to 96 seconds with every sign that there is more to come. In other words, about £1k of suspension set up properly, gave me similar gains to something like ten times that spent on engine, transmission and brake upgrades. I don't look at it like that, I see the suspension mods as letting me exploit the extra performance from the other work, but hopefully this will give you some idea of the sort of difference it can make. But don't imagine that you can just bolt on the dampers and see the times come down; it doesn't work like that.
As a recent convert to Nitrons I can honestly say it is one of the best investments I have made. The entire car's composure is vastly improved. The travel of the car appears vastly more controlled and the confidence they inspire over standard is great ...
The timing around a track for me would not have made any difference, it is the driver as Pete highlights that makes the difference unless you are at such a level that small tweaks to a set up make a difference and frankly I am so far away from that it is laughable .....
The reality though is that the dampers are just one part of a much more significant equation of set up permutations (sp) ..... I haven't even scratched the surface of the changes yet, but I can say that they do appear vastly improved over standard and the confidence I have in the car is much greater.
Worth it ....
The timing around a track for me would not have made any difference, it is the driver as Pete highlights that makes the difference unless you are at such a level that small tweaks to a set up make a difference and frankly I am so far away from that it is laughable .....
The reality though is that the dampers are just one part of a much more significant equation of set up permutations (sp) ..... I haven't even scratched the surface of the changes yet, but I can say that they do appear vastly improved over standard and the confidence I have in the car is much greater.
Worth it ....
I think you'd be surprised at how consistent your times would be if you are driving at say 9/10ths. It's a good question and although it would be different for nearly everybody, it would be great to have some answers. Pete's experience sounds compelling.
Don't forget though that when upgrading dampers you normally upgrade the springs so it not strictly a like for like comparison.
Don't forget though that when upgrading dampers you normally upgrade the springs so it not strictly a like for like comparison.
I would suggest that it's the slightly less talented people who would benefit from the added predictability of tuning the suspension to suit their tastes who would benefit most. I don't consider myself a particualry impressive driver, bit I enjoy making my car *more* challenging to drive on the suspension rather than more predictable .. you have that option of course. If you like your car to be relatively predictable then you can do that also .. adjustable suspension isn't just for the track day heroes, it can make all your driving more rewarding and unltimately safer too.
joospeed said:
I would suggest that it's the slightly less talented people who would benefit from the added predictability of tuning the suspension to suit their tastes.
OK, thats the category I fit into.
I know its a difficult question to answer but some of the feedback here is positive.
Whether talented or not, if on track everybody must drive at what they believe to be the best of their ability.
So, for example, me at Oulton Park on a recent trackday. I feel I put in some good times but didn't feel confident enough to push it more than I did. There were parts of the circuit where I'd lift but where I feel I wouldn't have needed to with firmer suspension. Purely a 'feel' factor.
How much more confidence would Nitrons give a driver like me? I'm not afraid to go well but the feedback from the car over some sections of track were not confidence filling.
I hope this makes sense, its difficult to put it into words that everyone can understand.
lazyitus said:
So, for example, me at Oulton Park on a recent trackday. I feel I put in some good times but didn't feel confident enough to push it more than I did. There were parts of the circuit where I'd lift but where I feel I wouldn't have needed to with firmer suspension. Purely a 'feel' factor.
Oulton Park is a scary circuit. I went round in a Scoob, and with the grip and stability those things generate, I was afraid - as a passenger. Would imagine in a Griff you need all the help you can get!
Hmmmmmm suspension upgrades.... currently on my sixth (I think) on the 520 caused by no 5 starting to cause fractures in the wishbone shock mounts due to 2G cornering loads causing the wishbones to twist and fail to transmit the stress correctly.
Heath views on suspension upgrades:
1. Suspension upgrade can transform a car especially if it is pretty knackered in the first place. Like most things it has to be set up for the rest of the car to get the best from it. Engine power without suspension and brake work is like getting a burger but without the bun, relish and napkin to keep your fingers clean. Enjoyable at first but a bit of a pain after a while.
2. There is no such thing as a perfect suspension. It is all about compromise and learning to live those compromises and that means understanding those compromises. For example... Adding a bit of front camber will improve handling as the contact patch is increased when the car rolls through a corner. True in the dry but in the wet, it actually reduces the grip because the car can't roll as much because there is not enough grip. Gain in one area, loss in another.
3. Suspension improvements can cover a multitude of driving sins especially getting the car balanced and smooth. All drivers should learn to drive their cars with duff shocks to improve their techniques and then get some new ones
4. All that any improvement does is show the next weak thing to be addressed...
Heath views on suspension upgrades:
1. Suspension upgrade can transform a car especially if it is pretty knackered in the first place. Like most things it has to be set up for the rest of the car to get the best from it. Engine power without suspension and brake work is like getting a burger but without the bun, relish and napkin to keep your fingers clean. Enjoyable at first but a bit of a pain after a while.
2. There is no such thing as a perfect suspension. It is all about compromise and learning to live those compromises and that means understanding those compromises. For example... Adding a bit of front camber will improve handling as the contact patch is increased when the car rolls through a corner. True in the dry but in the wet, it actually reduces the grip because the car can't roll as much because there is not enough grip. Gain in one area, loss in another.
3. Suspension improvements can cover a multitude of driving sins especially getting the car balanced and smooth. All drivers should learn to drive their cars with duff shocks to improve their techniques and then get some new ones
4. All that any improvement does is show the next weak thing to be addressed...
Don't forget that with any adjustables - if you don't put in the time to 'tune' them in - they can be :aweful, dangereous, great ..
When I first had mine fitted (AVO's) the G/F was nearly sick, every bump mid corner nearly had me in the hedges but smooth roundabouts were great.. initial setup was set to very hard !
When I first had mine fitted (AVO's) the G/F was nearly sick, every bump mid corner nearly had me in the hedges but smooth roundabouts were great.. initial setup was set to very hard !
Any "new" dampers, Nitrons/Avos etc will also require the bushes to be checked/changed - probably the latter.
Indeed, if you posed the question again, but with a standard 20/30K car and std suspension, then changed to new bushes, I believe the difference could be greater than changing just dampers alone.
All in my very humble opinion !
Trev McM
Indeed, if you posed the question again, but with a standard 20/30K car and std suspension, then changed to new bushes, I believe the difference could be greater than changing just dampers alone.
All in my very humble opinion !
Trev McM
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