Discussion
Hi folks, I am new on the scene, live in Germany, at least far enough to stand alone with a lot of problems. So I’m happy to discover this great forum to get some advice.
Car: Griffith 500?400?4xx? Meanwhile I don’t know, what it is or what went wrong with it.
Problem: Apparently NOT the power and acceleration of a 500, the main reason, why I wanted one. Built in 1995, 500 serp, PAS, first owner was proud of more power than he could handle safely. Then a factory recall because of crankshaft problems, exchange engine with a Rover No. 47A07… on the block. Next owner never drove the car to it’s limits, but described lots of power.
I discovered too late, that it is rather tame for a Griffith 500. Went to a service, they checked it all, compression, cats, ignition, ECU, all results o.k, told me, the last chance would be a change of the camshaft. So I agreed, paid some additional money, got 7 (seven) kW. 165 kW(Kilowatt) before, about 172 kW after, that’s . They said, it’s bad luck for me, the car is o.k, I simply got one at the bottom of the range. I couldn't believe ( see first owner above). So I went to a Porsche RR, with the result: 241 German DIN hp, I believe that’s nearly the same in bhp. Torque 360 Newtonmeter, that’s 300 lb/ft. Gave the car to experienced Griffith drivers. They all said, it’s like maybe a 400/430, no way the punch of a 500. And it’s a smooth running machine, apparent no damage or problem. I know from the forum, that I shouldn’t care about horsepower, because “it’s the torque and performance, that counts”. But that’s the problem, not only the bhp’s are wrong , the performance too is. It can’t be, that I have to fight to come away from a big BMW 7 Series or that a Mercedes SL55 AMG (0-60 in about 5 secs) gives me no chance. Mark Adams wrote in a comment: “With these motors it is the torque that does the damage to the opposition anyway.” I wouldn’t care, if it was bhp or torque or aerodynamics or fast legs, what damages, but in my car there seems to be nothing damaging, but something damaged..
So I try to start with some of my questions:
1. Is the car still within the power range of a Griffith 500?
2. How can I easily identify it as a 500 without totally stripping it? The garage couldn’t.
3. Rumour is going about that there has been a series in 94/95 with bad cylinder heads and weak power. True? Can it be one of those?
4. The new camshaft has been built in without any tappet preload, just in the same position as the old one, no further adjustments. Is there a need for tappet preload with hydraulic tappets or not? Can that be the reason? Even the new camshaft starts to produce a tapping noise.Maybe preload settings are the reason for lack of power? If the old camshaft was badly adjusted, how can the new one be right?
5. If the problems don’t stop, whom can you recommend for rebuilt or checking? I don’t want any tuning, just the power and punch of a “Standard 500”, that’s enough even for German streets and traffic, but it shouldn’t be less or a unknown machine.
Thanks for helping,
Hamlet
Car: Griffith 500?400?4xx? Meanwhile I don’t know, what it is or what went wrong with it.
Problem: Apparently NOT the power and acceleration of a 500, the main reason, why I wanted one. Built in 1995, 500 serp, PAS, first owner was proud of more power than he could handle safely. Then a factory recall because of crankshaft problems, exchange engine with a Rover No. 47A07… on the block. Next owner never drove the car to it’s limits, but described lots of power.
I discovered too late, that it is rather tame for a Griffith 500. Went to a service, they checked it all, compression, cats, ignition, ECU, all results o.k, told me, the last chance would be a change of the camshaft. So I agreed, paid some additional money, got 7 (seven) kW. 165 kW(Kilowatt) before, about 172 kW after, that’s . They said, it’s bad luck for me, the car is o.k, I simply got one at the bottom of the range. I couldn't believe ( see first owner above). So I went to a Porsche RR, with the result: 241 German DIN hp, I believe that’s nearly the same in bhp. Torque 360 Newtonmeter, that’s 300 lb/ft. Gave the car to experienced Griffith drivers. They all said, it’s like maybe a 400/430, no way the punch of a 500. And it’s a smooth running machine, apparent no damage or problem. I know from the forum, that I shouldn’t care about horsepower, because “it’s the torque and performance, that counts”. But that’s the problem, not only the bhp’s are wrong , the performance too is. It can’t be, that I have to fight to come away from a big BMW 7 Series or that a Mercedes SL55 AMG (0-60 in about 5 secs) gives me no chance. Mark Adams wrote in a comment: “With these motors it is the torque that does the damage to the opposition anyway.” I wouldn’t care, if it was bhp or torque or aerodynamics or fast legs, what damages, but in my car there seems to be nothing damaging, but something damaged..
So I try to start with some of my questions:
1. Is the car still within the power range of a Griffith 500?
2. How can I easily identify it as a 500 without totally stripping it? The garage couldn’t.
3. Rumour is going about that there has been a series in 94/95 with bad cylinder heads and weak power. True? Can it be one of those?
4. The new camshaft has been built in without any tappet preload, just in the same position as the old one, no further adjustments. Is there a need for tappet preload with hydraulic tappets or not? Can that be the reason? Even the new camshaft starts to produce a tapping noise.Maybe preload settings are the reason for lack of power? If the old camshaft was badly adjusted, how can the new one be right?
5. If the problems don’t stop, whom can you recommend for rebuilt or checking? I don’t want any tuning, just the power and punch of a “Standard 500”, that’s enough even for German streets and traffic, but it shouldn’t be less or a unknown machine.
Thanks for helping,
Hamlet
sorry to hear about your problems i would be gutted if that was me so i will give as much help as i can...
unforunetly there is no way of truly telling a 5 ltr from the other engines, a genuine 500 will have indentations in the shallow part of the sump for the crank throw other than that a bore mic and scope to measure the cylinder displacement, it should be 94.04 bore and a 90mm stroke, as regards to the camshaft all you can realy do with a cam is move the power band up or down, the only exception here is with roller cams or if the preload is so far out that the followers are actualy holding the valves open slightly which i doubt in both casses, if it were fitted with an original 500 cam the drive below 1500 rpm would be a little lumpy but nice power delivery above this figure, if fitted with say a range rover cam power and driveability below 1500rpm would be great but no power at the top, the only true of telling is to take a head off and see what you have or ask previous owners what work thay have done?? hope this helps and good luck.
unforunetly there is no way of truly telling a 5 ltr from the other engines, a genuine 500 will have indentations in the shallow part of the sump for the crank throw other than that a bore mic and scope to measure the cylinder displacement, it should be 94.04 bore and a 90mm stroke, as regards to the camshaft all you can realy do with a cam is move the power band up or down, the only exception here is with roller cams or if the preload is so far out that the followers are actualy holding the valves open slightly which i doubt in both casses, if it were fitted with an original 500 cam the drive below 1500 rpm would be a little lumpy but nice power delivery above this figure, if fitted with say a range rover cam power and driveability below 1500rpm would be great but no power at the top, the only true of telling is to take a head off and see what you have or ask previous owners what work thay have done?? hope this helps and good luck.
You can check with the factory in Blackpool. Even if it's "only" a 4.3 it should still be quite fast. 240 bhp is pretty weak for a 500, however I guess not that unusual for a non-sorted one; they normally do 260-270. 300 lbs seems about right. This alone should give you plenty of acceleration.
To solve your performance problems I would suggest to go to the UK e.g. to Tower View or V8 Dev. They knowledge of the RV8 can't be found on the continent. I'm going there myself next Spring to see why my 500 feels a bit weak. It's a bit of a journey but well worth it.
To solve your performance problems I would suggest to go to the UK e.g. to Tower View or V8 Dev. They knowledge of the RV8 can't be found on the continent. I'm going there myself next Spring to see why my 500 feels a bit weak. It's a bit of a journey but well worth it.
the best indication of power is the "in gear" times.
do some timed sets
60-80
80-100 etc in fourth and fifth gear.
i found fourth gear 80-100 (mph) to be the best indication. i believe the factory (autocar) figure was 3.9 secs for the 500. sit at 80 feathering the throttle for a second or two...then nail it through 100 with your mate stopping the clock as you pass 100mph. you MAY be pleasantly supprised. it's alot easier to do this than the 0-60 times which take skill and good conditions to get sub 4.5sec on standard tyres.
80-100 can be done easily with a mate watching the speedo and a stopwatch. as i improved my car i managed to get this done to 1.99 secs!!!
during varying stages of tune i used this to gauge any improvements found on the rollers. this was always bourne out at later visits to the track. mine wasn't necessarilly the biggest on the rollers but its VERY fast on the track.
easy and cheap to do on the autobahns!!!!
have fun and be carefull!
do some timed sets
60-80
80-100 etc in fourth and fifth gear.
i found fourth gear 80-100 (mph) to be the best indication. i believe the factory (autocar) figure was 3.9 secs for the 500. sit at 80 feathering the throttle for a second or two...then nail it through 100 with your mate stopping the clock as you pass 100mph. you MAY be pleasantly supprised. it's alot easier to do this than the 0-60 times which take skill and good conditions to get sub 4.5sec on standard tyres.
80-100 can be done easily with a mate watching the speedo and a stopwatch. as i improved my car i managed to get this done to 1.99 secs!!!
during varying stages of tune i used this to gauge any improvements found on the rollers. this was always bourne out at later visits to the track. mine wasn't necessarilly the biggest on the rollers but its VERY fast on the track.
easy and cheap to do on the autobahns!!!!
have fun and be carefull!
Deffiantly worth a call to the Factory to find out its History.
TVR Engineering Ltd
Bristol Avenue
Blackpool
FY2 0JF
Lancashire
Tel: 01253 509000
Fax: 01253 356097
Internet: www.tvr.co.uk
I hear they can be a bit slow ( or used to be) so you may need to ring them alot.
Like DustyC says the speedo's can be a bit out so may be worth testing with a GPS on board?
Is it a left hand drive, The last that were exported around 1993, of course these are only rough figures and there may have been some in 94.
500 started rolling out in 94 , Should have the Borg Warner T5 Gearbox.
Got any pics for us to analize, Engine etc.
I have a few HERE that you may be interested in to compare
BB
>> Edited by Ballistic Banana on Saturday 27th November 12:22
TVR Engineering Ltd
Bristol Avenue
Blackpool
FY2 0JF
Lancashire
Tel: 01253 509000
Fax: 01253 356097
Internet: www.tvr.co.uk
I hear they can be a bit slow ( or used to be) so you may need to ring them alot.
Like DustyC says the speedo's can be a bit out so may be worth testing with a GPS on board?
Is it a left hand drive, The last that were exported around 1993, of course these are only rough figures and there may have been some in 94.
500 started rolling out in 94 , Should have the Borg Warner T5 Gearbox.
Got any pics for us to analize, Engine etc.
I have a few HERE that you may be interested in to compare
BB
>> Edited by Ballistic Banana on Saturday 27th November 12:22
hamlet500 said:
So I went to a Porsche RR, with the result: 241 German DIN hp, I believe that’s nearly the same in bhp. Torque 360 Newtonmeter, that’s 300 lb/ft. Gave the car to experienced Griffith drivers. They all said, it’s like maybe a 400/430, no way the punch of a 500.
I would say with that amount of torque it would probably be a 5.0L . i have heard of other 500's measuring this low, i would investigate the condition of the cam.
If you had 270 bhp & 300 it would be a very healthy 500 engine, a 400 would only produce about 230 lb ft and a 4.3 270 ish, but we are back to the old problem of varying measurements.
Tim
Without knowing the rolling road it's hard to know what those figures mean. A more practical check is the in-gear acceleration times, assuming you calibrate the speedo first. There's one other way to tell which size engine you have, which is to see how easily it spins the wheels in the dry. Get it rolling along at say 2000 rpm in first gear, and give it full throttle. If you have a normal 4 liter engine it will accelerate up to the red line without spinning the wheels. If you have a 4.5 it will struggle to break traction round about 3000-4000 rpm, depending how warm the tyres are and how grippy the road is. If you have a 500 it will spin the wheels straight away. (If this works, credit goes to Joolz. If not, its my fault.)
Since I couldn't afford a 5 liter engine (4.6 only) I've not done this myself, but apparently
Since I couldn't afford a 5 liter engine (4.6 only) I've not done this myself, but apparently
Hamlet 500
what pressure did you get on each cylinder when they did a compression test, we will forgive you if you tell us in bar.
For a healthy 500 I would expect 140-150psi please someone correct me if I'm wrong
What cam did you put in, maker and number please.
Does the engine rev freely right through to the limiter? no hesitation
Are the fuel injecters ok , good emmissions, Im thinking of blocked cats here pre not so likely but maybe main.
Hope you get sorted but some good advise I read here go to TVR power they will sort you out
Simon
what pressure did you get on each cylinder when they did a compression test, we will forgive you if you tell us in bar.
For a healthy 500 I would expect 140-150psi please someone correct me if I'm wrong
What cam did you put in, maker and number please.
Does the engine rev freely right through to the limiter? no hesitation
Are the fuel injecters ok , good emmissions, Im thinking of blocked cats here pre not so likely but maybe main.
Hope you get sorted but some good advise I read here go to TVR power they will sort you out
Simon
v8 racing said:Hamlet500
sorry to hear about your problems i would be gutted if that was me so i will give as much help as i can...
"v8 racing" is the guy from "V8 Developments"....
So if you need telephone/P.h. advice or are going to bring the car over for work...
Along with Tvr power you've been given two of the best people for it....
Sounds like your valvetrain is a little slack so I would get the lifter preloads set properly. Also as Rob from v8d says, you should check the capacity of the engine. The compression test will tell you if it's healthy or has low compression heads. 140 psi seems like a very low figure for a performance engine. I'd expect 160 and upwards.
Is the inlet tract obstructed, does the throttle open fully, exhaust pipe clear? Have you had it checked on a diagnostic tuner?
Boosted.
Is the inlet tract obstructed, does the throttle open fully, exhaust pipe clear? Have you had it checked on a diagnostic tuner?
Boosted.
Thanks for your quick response. I'm absolutely enthusiastic about the reactions. At first I have to apologize and to correct my wrong conversion from Nm to lb/ft. The torque is only 266 lb/ft, what doesn’t make me feel better.
As to tappet preload and v8racing: As a not to religious man, I still believe in “The Bible”, one of the few sources of “enlightenment” over here, before I discovered pistonheads. Steve Heath writes (p52) about the importance of correct preload settings even with hydraulic tappets, or “this can destroy a camshaft in 8-10000 miles. Same opinion on the rpi website. And my new cam has 8000 at the most, soon starting to make ticking noises when on idle and when the engine is warm. Result: check of all tappets, at least one badly worn (shows a hammered surface similar to an hour glass), so I got 16 new tappets. Result: still tapping noise. In the end I will follow Robs advice and take a head off, or better, let someone take a head off for measurement, before I loose my head because of all the problems.
As to guillotine and GreenV8S: We did a kind of "in gear test" on the autobahn, driving parallel to a healthy griffith 500, accelerating in fourth from 80 mph to topspeed in fifth. No chance for me until we reached top (158mph.But I will check it again exactly between 80 and 100 mph.And it will be fun to do the "spin test", that you recommended.But as far as I pushed it until now, there was no feeling of never ending spin.
As to BB: Factory got a mail, they had no informations for us.Gearbox is a T5.Great pics! 500 engine bay view exactly like in my car.
Tim, sorry about the wrong torque conversion, it's only 266lbft. Do you still think, that's within the range of a 500?
As to siwes: Each cylinder is better then 11 bar, that means (you know from above, I'm a conversion genius)159 psi (tested last year just before the camchange). The old cam,that was handed to me, was a TVR 435R/M, the new one is the same, as i've been told.Good thoughts concerning emmissions, cats revving to limiter. All said o.k.
As to Boosted: My old Hamlet-problem: Preset or not preset, that is the question(see above).
So you see my problem: Confusing facts, testresults, repairs. It seems, in the end I will have to check with the "gurus".
Thanks for your comments so far.
Hamlet
As to tappet preload and v8racing: As a not to religious man, I still believe in “The Bible”, one of the few sources of “enlightenment” over here, before I discovered pistonheads. Steve Heath writes (p52) about the importance of correct preload settings even with hydraulic tappets, or “this can destroy a camshaft in 8-10000 miles. Same opinion on the rpi website. And my new cam has 8000 at the most, soon starting to make ticking noises when on idle and when the engine is warm. Result: check of all tappets, at least one badly worn (shows a hammered surface similar to an hour glass), so I got 16 new tappets. Result: still tapping noise. In the end I will follow Robs advice and take a head off, or better, let someone take a head off for measurement, before I loose my head because of all the problems.
As to guillotine and GreenV8S: We did a kind of "in gear test" on the autobahn, driving parallel to a healthy griffith 500, accelerating in fourth from 80 mph to topspeed in fifth. No chance for me until we reached top (158mph.But I will check it again exactly between 80 and 100 mph.And it will be fun to do the "spin test", that you recommended.But as far as I pushed it until now, there was no feeling of never ending spin.
As to BB: Factory got a mail, they had no informations for us.Gearbox is a T5.Great pics! 500 engine bay view exactly like in my car.
Tim, sorry about the wrong torque conversion, it's only 266lbft. Do you still think, that's within the range of a 500?
As to siwes: Each cylinder is better then 11 bar, that means (you know from above, I'm a conversion genius)159 psi (tested last year just before the camchange). The old cam,that was handed to me, was a TVR 435R/M, the new one is the same, as i've been told.Good thoughts concerning emmissions, cats revving to limiter. All said o.k.
As to Boosted: My old Hamlet-problem: Preset or not preset, that is the question(see above).
So you see my problem: Confusing facts, testresults, repairs. It seems, in the end I will have to check with the "gurus".
Thanks for your comments so far.
Hamlet
You need to set the lifter preloads properly. For all you know the cam may not be open for long enough so your cylinders will be drawing in less air and producing less cylinder pressure. A pressure check now would be a good idea for comparison now you have new lifters fitted. They may be tapping because your oil is to thin. Is it old thin stuff, hope it's not mobile 1. A nice 20/50 might help but that's just my preference.
Boosted.
Boosted.
Boosted LS1 said:
You need to set the lifter preloads properly. For all you know the cam may not be open for long enough so your cylinders will be drawing in less air and producing less cylinder pressure. A pressure check now would be a good idea for comparison now you have new lifters fitted. They may be tapping because your oil is to thin. Is it old thin stuff, hope it's not mobile 1. A nice 20/50 might help but that's just my preference.
Boosted.
No, it's never been Mobile 1. At first I continued with Shell Helix Ultra 5W30, than changed to Castrol 10W60, after fitting the new lifters got the advice to drive with normal mineral ol 10W40 for a few thousand kilometers, than to change back to the synthetic Castrol.
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