Buying a Griff SE
Discussion
Hi everyone, this is my first post and I was hoping to get some advice.
I've been looking at buying a Griff as a second car to enjoy, go on some trips to France, Cruise around the country and also go to the occasional business meeting down the motorway and whilst looking around I came across a few SE versions.
I really like the SE, like the rear lights, seats, dash etc and I like the fact that there were only 100 made. They are the latest Griff's so that's good too.
I test drove this car http://www.jamesagger.com/used_cars/stocklistgalle... number 11 of the 100 SE's made and it's awesome but it's a lot of money which is why I'm hoping for some advice.
Are the SE's worth the extra cash, I don't want to experience massive depreciation but I'm gunna drive the car so of course I'm gunna get some I'm just not into wasting loads of cash or loosing loads. So I figure the SE will retain its value better than non SE's but I could be wrong and in fact one of the members on here bought the car 12 years ago for about £10k less. I'm not looking for appreciation and am not expecting it to retain price but I just don't want massive loss that's all. Noted the car has pretty much not been driven since then so that's a good and bad thing I think. Nice low miles and no wear but what problems does it have that have not been seen yet or am I paranoid.
I also note that the member Steve Blake said that he was glad to see the back of it cos he had problems but I also know that the new owner at the time sent it back to Blackpool for loads of extra newer upgrades and to fix anything that was wrong.
I don't have a garage, literally just converted it into a room! So this car will be on the drive and under a cover when the weather is bad, it will probably get garaged by the time next winter comes but in the mean time I do not want to knacker it. I keep telling myself it's a car so it'll be fine but it's also a modern classic that's spent the last 12 years in a climate controlled bubble so am I gunna wreck it?
Also motorway driving can be tough on cars, fine for my big range rover but again am I overly worrying about knackering this one?
So my worries; reliability, knackering due to no garage and motorway driving, retaining some value, previous problems experienced by Steve Blake, not been driven much since 2004, is it worth the price for an SE.
At the end of the day I love the car, can afford it and wouldn't want to miss getting a yellow SE, it's the colour I want and the model I want but I also do not want to regret the decision.
Really appreciate any advice from other Griff and TVR owners and Steve who owned it many years ago, not sure how to reference him @sb-1
Mike
I've been looking at buying a Griff as a second car to enjoy, go on some trips to France, Cruise around the country and also go to the occasional business meeting down the motorway and whilst looking around I came across a few SE versions.
I really like the SE, like the rear lights, seats, dash etc and I like the fact that there were only 100 made. They are the latest Griff's so that's good too.
I test drove this car http://www.jamesagger.com/used_cars/stocklistgalle... number 11 of the 100 SE's made and it's awesome but it's a lot of money which is why I'm hoping for some advice.
Are the SE's worth the extra cash, I don't want to experience massive depreciation but I'm gunna drive the car so of course I'm gunna get some I'm just not into wasting loads of cash or loosing loads. So I figure the SE will retain its value better than non SE's but I could be wrong and in fact one of the members on here bought the car 12 years ago for about £10k less. I'm not looking for appreciation and am not expecting it to retain price but I just don't want massive loss that's all. Noted the car has pretty much not been driven since then so that's a good and bad thing I think. Nice low miles and no wear but what problems does it have that have not been seen yet or am I paranoid.
I also note that the member Steve Blake said that he was glad to see the back of it cos he had problems but I also know that the new owner at the time sent it back to Blackpool for loads of extra newer upgrades and to fix anything that was wrong.
I don't have a garage, literally just converted it into a room! So this car will be on the drive and under a cover when the weather is bad, it will probably get garaged by the time next winter comes but in the mean time I do not want to knacker it. I keep telling myself it's a car so it'll be fine but it's also a modern classic that's spent the last 12 years in a climate controlled bubble so am I gunna wreck it?
Also motorway driving can be tough on cars, fine for my big range rover but again am I overly worrying about knackering this one?
So my worries; reliability, knackering due to no garage and motorway driving, retaining some value, previous problems experienced by Steve Blake, not been driven much since 2004, is it worth the price for an SE.
At the end of the day I love the car, can afford it and wouldn't want to miss getting a yellow SE, it's the colour I want and the model I want but I also do not want to regret the decision.
Really appreciate any advice from other Griff and TVR owners and Steve who owned it many years ago, not sure how to reference him @sb-1
Mike
You'll get a hundred, maybe more, different opinions on this. Mine is don't buy it, you've got doubts already so the first time something goes wrong you'll regret buying it. You could find a 'normal' Griff in yellow and save yourself around £15k, that's alot of repairs. Up to you though.
mikeduma said:
Hi everyone, this is my first post and I was hoping to get some advice.
I've been looking at buying a Griff as a second car to enjoy, go on some trips to France, Cruise around the country and also go to the occasional business meeting down the motorway and whilst looking around I came across a few SE versions.
I really like the SE, like the rear lights, seats, dash etc and I like the fact that there were only 100 made. They are the latest Griff's so that's good too.
I test drove this car http://www.jamesagger.com/used_cars/stocklistgalle... number 11 of the 100 SE's made and it's awesome but it's a lot of money which is why I'm hoping for some advice.
Are the SE's worth the extra cash, Many Griff owners will say no, and I'm one of them. There's little, if anything, that's better than the 'standard' 500, and the rear lights are a question of personal taste - you like them, many don't.I don't want to experience massive depreciation but I'm gunna drive the car so of course I'm gunna get some I'm just not into wasting loads of cash or loosing loads. So I figure the SE will retain its value better than non SE's but I could be wrong and in fact one of the members on here bought the car 12 years ago for about £10k less. I'm not looking for appreciation and am not expecting it to retain price but I just don't want massive loss that's all. Noted the car has pretty much not been driven since then so that's a good and bad thing I think. Nice low miles and no wear but what problems does it have that have not been seen yet or am I paranoid. In my experience, TVRs are more reliable when they're used. Having said that, my current car was bought with low mileage and it's been fine
I also note that the member Steve Blake said that he was glad to see the back of it cos he had problems but I also know that the new owner at the time sent it back to Blackpool for loads of extra newer upgrades and to fix anything that was wrong.
I don't have a garage, literally just converted it into a room! So this car will be on the drive and under a cover when the weather is bad, it will probably get garaged by the time next winter comes but in the mean time I do not want to knacker it. I keep telling myself it's a car so it'll be fine but it's also a modern classic that's spent the last 12 years in a climate controlled bubble so am I gunna wreck it? Not if it's under a quality cover, it'll be fine in the short term
Also motorway driving can be tough on cars, fine for my big range rover but again am I overly worrying about knackering this one?Griffs absorb motorway driving as well as any car. I've driven to Italy and Spain in mine, no problems. It'll be less stress on the car than hammering it round country lanes!
So my worries; reliability, knackering due to no garage and motorway driving, retaining some value, previous problems experienced by Steve Blake, not been driven much since 2004, is it worth the price for an SE. A car is worth what a buyer will pay for it. The price isn't out of line with what's being asked for other SEs, but who knows what they eventually sell for
At the end of the day I love the car, can afford it and wouldn't want to miss getting a yellow SE, it's the colour I want and the model I want but I also do not want to regret the decision. You could avoid this car, which you clearly like, due to its past reputation and go and buy a different one that proves to be a dog. I'd make a low offer on it and insist on a proper, meaningful warranty
Really appreciate any advice from other Griff and TVR owners and Steve who owned it many years ago, not sure how to reference him @sb-1
Mike
I've been looking at buying a Griff as a second car to enjoy, go on some trips to France, Cruise around the country and also go to the occasional business meeting down the motorway and whilst looking around I came across a few SE versions.
I really like the SE, like the rear lights, seats, dash etc and I like the fact that there were only 100 made. They are the latest Griff's so that's good too.
I test drove this car http://www.jamesagger.com/used_cars/stocklistgalle... number 11 of the 100 SE's made and it's awesome but it's a lot of money which is why I'm hoping for some advice.
Are the SE's worth the extra cash, Many Griff owners will say no, and I'm one of them. There's little, if anything, that's better than the 'standard' 500, and the rear lights are a question of personal taste - you like them, many don't.I don't want to experience massive depreciation but I'm gunna drive the car so of course I'm gunna get some I'm just not into wasting loads of cash or loosing loads. So I figure the SE will retain its value better than non SE's but I could be wrong and in fact one of the members on here bought the car 12 years ago for about £10k less. I'm not looking for appreciation and am not expecting it to retain price but I just don't want massive loss that's all. Noted the car has pretty much not been driven since then so that's a good and bad thing I think. Nice low miles and no wear but what problems does it have that have not been seen yet or am I paranoid. In my experience, TVRs are more reliable when they're used. Having said that, my current car was bought with low mileage and it's been fine
I also note that the member Steve Blake said that he was glad to see the back of it cos he had problems but I also know that the new owner at the time sent it back to Blackpool for loads of extra newer upgrades and to fix anything that was wrong.
I don't have a garage, literally just converted it into a room! So this car will be on the drive and under a cover when the weather is bad, it will probably get garaged by the time next winter comes but in the mean time I do not want to knacker it. I keep telling myself it's a car so it'll be fine but it's also a modern classic that's spent the last 12 years in a climate controlled bubble so am I gunna wreck it? Not if it's under a quality cover, it'll be fine in the short term
Also motorway driving can be tough on cars, fine for my big range rover but again am I overly worrying about knackering this one?Griffs absorb motorway driving as well as any car. I've driven to Italy and Spain in mine, no problems. It'll be less stress on the car than hammering it round country lanes!
So my worries; reliability, knackering due to no garage and motorway driving, retaining some value, previous problems experienced by Steve Blake, not been driven much since 2004, is it worth the price for an SE. A car is worth what a buyer will pay for it. The price isn't out of line with what's being asked for other SEs, but who knows what they eventually sell for
At the end of the day I love the car, can afford it and wouldn't want to miss getting a yellow SE, it's the colour I want and the model I want but I also do not want to regret the decision. You could avoid this car, which you clearly like, due to its past reputation and go and buy a different one that proves to be a dog. I'd make a low offer on it and insist on a proper, meaningful warranty
Really appreciate any advice from other Griff and TVR owners and Steve who owned it many years ago, not sure how to reference him @sb-1
Mike
I'm expecting things to go wrong so it's not going to be a surprise but as you said £15k is a lot of repairs that you can make on a standard Griff. Also expect to loose that low mileage premium but I intend to keep the car for a while. So I'm going in eyes open but is the reliability of TVR's as bad as popular belief probably born out of Jeremy Clarkson's opinions or is that the experience of other members on this forum? And then are the problems very bad and very expensive or just minor annoyances like electrics?
mikeduma said:
I'm expecting things to go wrong so it's not going to be a surprise but as you said £15k is a lot of repairs that you can make on a standard Griff. Also expect to loose that low mileage premium but I intend to keep the car for a while. So I'm going in eyes open but is the reliability of TVR's as bad as popular belief probably born out of Jeremy Clarkson's opinions or is that the experience of other members on this forum? And then are the problems very bad and very expensive or just minor annoyances like electrics?
Had problems with s 1965 TVR griffith and a 2000 Cerbera that prevented getting home under their own steam. That's in 35 years, 30 cars and over 250,000 miles (30000 miles + on track days)
I may have just been lucky
I'm sure that the SEs are very good but IMHO it's a lot of extra money when 15k ish will get you an equally good non SE variant. I am no expert but I've had my Griff for 13 years ands it got 86k on the clock, I've used it as a second car as often as possible in dry conditions, apart the cam shaft change, clutch and a diff it's been quite reliable. I was thinking of changing to a 911 but I'd miss the Griff too much, I hope that helps.
mikeduma said:
So I'm going in eyes open but is the reliability of TVR's as bad as popular belief probably born out of Jeremy Clarkson's opinions or is that the experience of other members on this forum? And then are the problems very bad and very expensive or just minor annoyances like electrics?
The Rover engined cars, including the Griffith and Chimaera are generally as reliable as any other car of the era - better than many in fact - although they do need 'keeping on top of' to sort out minor niggles. The technology is simple and proven and problems are very rarely major. When/if issues do occur parts are readily available (due to their Rover/Ford/Vauxhall origins) and aren't expensive.Now for the more contentious bit! The later cars (T35O, Sagaris, Cerbera, Tuscan, Tamora etc) have much more TVR-designed and built content including the engines themselves. In my experience these cars can be much more trouble and are far more expensive to sort when they do go wrong - due partially to the bespoke nature of the parts and restricted availability, but also the specialist skills needed to work on them. That said, once a Speed Six or AJP engine has been rebuilt by someone who knows what they're doing (at least £10k) then they can be reliable.
In summary, don't worry too much about the reliability rumours as far as Griffiths are concerned. Leaving one exposed to the elements through the winter may throw up other issues though such as water leaks. Car covers are OK to a point but not really a long-term solution.
.simonwedge said:
mikeduma said:
So I'm going in eyes open but is the reliability of TVR's as bad as popular belief probably born out of Jeremy Clarkson's opinions or is that the experience of other members on this forum? And then are the problems very bad and very expensive or just minor annoyances like electrics?
The Rover engined cars, including the Griffith and Chimaera are generally as reliable as any other car of the era - better than many in fact - although they do need 'keeping on top of' to sort out minor niggles. The technology is simple and proven and problems are very rarely major. When/if issues do occur parts are readily available (due to their Rover/Ford/Vauxhall origins) and aren't expensive.I've had my Griffith for 8 years now, it's my daily and I regularly do long motorway trips in all kinds of weather. It's only let me down 3 or 4 times and they were minor issues like blown fuses, failed AFM and a burst hose. All inconvenient but nothing you wouldn't expect from a 16 year old sports car.
For the first 18 months it lived outside uncovered except a couple of times when I put my Leven Hood cover on. If you're using the var a full cover is a real PITA and put onto a wet and/or dirty car can cause paint issues not to mention scratches if it's not secured properly. As long as you have sorted all the potential ingress points they don't leak.
As to buying the SE, I personally don't like the lights and the modified dash but that's personal opinion. The 7" headlights are a massive improvement over standard and I've had them fitted and essential if you do a lot of night driving. Aesthetics aside as has been mentioned many of the SEs have low mileage and that's where the premium lies so if you're going to use it regularly I'd follow the advice given above and buy a well sorted late 'ordinary' 500.
All the pub and Clarkson talk is just mostly ill-informed hearsay, if you keep them maintained they're as good (if not better) than any comparable sportscar of the time and much cheaper to maintain than anything of comparable performance
After the previous owner sent it back to Blackpool to have all the latest mods added and various minor stuff upgraded to the tune of £5k it was put in storage for 12 years and then brought out last month and has since been driven by the garage selling it and had a full mechanical check over.
Mike - I don't think the Agger SE is for you; the price is all about the low mileage and condition. As soon as you start using it regularly it will shed quite a bit of value.
Griffiths like to be used but I take mine off the road for winter. I only do 2500 miles a year in mine which seems to be enough as it has broken down just once in 9 years although it has had 8 services in my ownership. The one breakdown required a new camshaft which cost about £900 all in. Otherwise £300-£500 a year has covered my car. All costs are on the blog although I haven't put the new tyre costs up yet. They are not expensive to run and I get about 23-27MPG using Shell V-Max and an octane booster.
SEs do occasionally come cheaper - someone got a really good SE from a private seller at a bargain £25,000 last year but they're mostly sold through dealers at high 20s upwards.
Frankly, if its for daily use, I would get a regular Griff and you can give it the SE lights front and back.
LF
ps see the website www.griffith500se.co.uk
Griffiths like to be used but I take mine off the road for winter. I only do 2500 miles a year in mine which seems to be enough as it has broken down just once in 9 years although it has had 8 services in my ownership. The one breakdown required a new camshaft which cost about £900 all in. Otherwise £300-£500 a year has covered my car. All costs are on the blog although I haven't put the new tyre costs up yet. They are not expensive to run and I get about 23-27MPG using Shell V-Max and an octane booster.
SEs do occasionally come cheaper - someone got a really good SE from a private seller at a bargain £25,000 last year but they're mostly sold through dealers at high 20s upwards.
Frankly, if its for daily use, I would get a regular Griff and you can give it the SE lights front and back.
LF
ps see the website www.griffith500se.co.uk
Edited by lockhart flawse on Saturday 7th March 11:57
I love the Griff 500, the best soft top TVR ever made IMHO.
I owned a '96 car from '97 to '01, bought with under 10,000 miles on the clock sold at ~40,000. The most significant issue I had was a radiator fan fuse blowing causing steam out of the engine. I subsequently carried a spare fuse with me. I got it serviced annually, the radiator needed re-coring at one point, but it proved to very reliable. I did hear that the camshaft had to be replaced shortly after I parted with it.
I bought another '99 car, just pre the SE,with 19,000 miles on the clock in 2008 and still have it. At the time I did look at a couple of SE's but even then the premium was significant over the non-SE cars. So I waited until I found the right car for me, e.g. no rust, without worrying about the model. It has now covered 43,000 miles and with considerable TLC is in better condition than when I bought it. Suspect it is worth a little more than I paid, but no intention to test that. It has also been totally reliable.
So my advice would be to buy an SE and use it lightly if you want an investment, or buy a late non-SE if you want to use it more.I would also recommend to find somewhere dry to park it overnight, to maintain the condition if you buy a top example.
I owned a '96 car from '97 to '01, bought with under 10,000 miles on the clock sold at ~40,000. The most significant issue I had was a radiator fan fuse blowing causing steam out of the engine. I subsequently carried a spare fuse with me. I got it serviced annually, the radiator needed re-coring at one point, but it proved to very reliable. I did hear that the camshaft had to be replaced shortly after I parted with it.
I bought another '99 car, just pre the SE,with 19,000 miles on the clock in 2008 and still have it. At the time I did look at a couple of SE's but even then the premium was significant over the non-SE cars. So I waited until I found the right car for me, e.g. no rust, without worrying about the model. It has now covered 43,000 miles and with considerable TLC is in better condition than when I bought it. Suspect it is worth a little more than I paid, but no intention to test that. It has also been totally reliable.
So my advice would be to buy an SE and use it lightly if you want an investment, or buy a late non-SE if you want to use it more.I would also recommend to find somewhere dry to park it overnight, to maintain the condition if you buy a top example.
Edited by Englishman on Saturday 7th March 12:00
As my local TVR garage says " You either love them or hate them"
My experience over 13 years of ownership is that while generally reliable they are not built like a production car e.g. Porshe, BMW ect. and while most faults can be minor unless you are into fixing things yourself the problems can be annoying especially if you have to pay someone to fix them. Some idea of the problems I have encountered are detailed:
www.bertram-hill.com
Driving them is certainly very satisfying if at times a bit exciting especially in the wet, having said that I managed to spin my TVR S3 several times but have never lost the Griffith probably because I treat it with much more respect. Motorway driving is effortless and not what you would buy a Griffith for but as said above Motorway driving is kind to a car and stresses it far less than belting around country lanes.
As an investment I am not so sure, who knows what the future holds, with financial uncertainty anything is posible but in the scheme of things even SE cars are not that expensive so its not as though you are gambling 100-200K or so. You will go far to find a more attractive car at the price with performance to match but unless you have detailed knowledge I would advise taking someone with you to have a good look over any car before parting with your hard earned. Join the club and have a look at a few owners cars.
All TVRs are a bit ragged round the edges, but great fun to drive, attract a lot of attention and are in my opinion superb value for money.
My experience over 13 years of ownership is that while generally reliable they are not built like a production car e.g. Porshe, BMW ect. and while most faults can be minor unless you are into fixing things yourself the problems can be annoying especially if you have to pay someone to fix them. Some idea of the problems I have encountered are detailed:
www.bertram-hill.com
Driving them is certainly very satisfying if at times a bit exciting especially in the wet, having said that I managed to spin my TVR S3 several times but have never lost the Griffith probably because I treat it with much more respect. Motorway driving is effortless and not what you would buy a Griffith for but as said above Motorway driving is kind to a car and stresses it far less than belting around country lanes.
As an investment I am not so sure, who knows what the future holds, with financial uncertainty anything is posible but in the scheme of things even SE cars are not that expensive so its not as though you are gambling 100-200K or so. You will go far to find a more attractive car at the price with performance to match but unless you have detailed knowledge I would advise taking someone with you to have a good look over any car before parting with your hard earned. Join the club and have a look at a few owners cars.
All TVRs are a bit ragged round the edges, but great fun to drive, attract a lot of attention and are in my opinion superb value for money.
That SE would lose value and condition if kept outside under a cover over the winter - it needs garaging and pampering at those miles and that money. Kept well you wouldn't lose on it.
None of the SEs out there now are what I'd call good value though. Roger Shackleton's SE was for sale privately a while back - 20k iirc. I was the third to phone the seller. First in line bought it.
You'd be better off dipping a toe by getting a decent non-SE 500 and changing the back end if you have to - some non-SE cars have had this done, or just an SE with a few more miles on.
There's 3 or 4 500s around £20-£24k up in the classifieds at the moment, all in blue, that I reckon would be a halfway house between a £40k car and something with 'issues'. Or the 1994 green one at Straight 6 - that looks well sorted. Would they lose or gain value better or worse than an SE? Bet there's nothing in it, unless you're talking a decade plus, as I kind of think a perfect Griff SE or 4.3 big valve will follow the Sagaris long term.
With a tidy but used 500 you can afford to stick it under a car cover, and use and abuse it a bit more than a museum piece that's barely run in.
None of the SEs out there now are what I'd call good value though. Roger Shackleton's SE was for sale privately a while back - 20k iirc. I was the third to phone the seller. First in line bought it.
You'd be better off dipping a toe by getting a decent non-SE 500 and changing the back end if you have to - some non-SE cars have had this done, or just an SE with a few more miles on.
There's 3 or 4 500s around £20-£24k up in the classifieds at the moment, all in blue, that I reckon would be a halfway house between a £40k car and something with 'issues'. Or the 1994 green one at Straight 6 - that looks well sorted. Would they lose or gain value better or worse than an SE? Bet there's nothing in it, unless you're talking a decade plus, as I kind of think a perfect Griff SE or 4.3 big valve will follow the Sagaris long term.
With a tidy but used 500 you can afford to stick it under a car cover, and use and abuse it a bit more than a museum piece that's barely run in.
If you are happy to pay high teens, low twenties for a Griff then wait for one to come up thats had some major work done , (body off chassis refurb, engine work, new interior etc).
Sounds like you want a reliable fun car, I can tell you from experience if it is off the road for any length of time having any or all of the above work carried out, it ain't fun.
Lurk on these forums long enough and you'll find a good one.
Not a fan of the SE by the way - bit of a cynical marketing ploy from TVR and the premium drops off pretty quickly if you use it as it is meant to be used. Apart from the Cerb seats the rest is a bit inferior to the original - I love my upside down Cavalier GSI rear light clusters and fitting a Chimaera dash to a Griff is almost as bad as putting a vented bonnet on! (Sorry lto the lads that have 'em but all IMHO of course!)
Sounds like you want a reliable fun car, I can tell you from experience if it is off the road for any length of time having any or all of the above work carried out, it ain't fun.
Lurk on these forums long enough and you'll find a good one.
Not a fan of the SE by the way - bit of a cynical marketing ploy from TVR and the premium drops off pretty quickly if you use it as it is meant to be used. Apart from the Cerb seats the rest is a bit inferior to the original - I love my upside down Cavalier GSI rear light clusters and fitting a Chimaera dash to a Griff is almost as bad as putting a vented bonnet on! (Sorry lto the lads that have 'em but all IMHO of course!)
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