Griff / Chimp 500 verses E46 M3
Discussion
As above. A few years ago I was fortunate to have both my tweaked Griff and a lovely But very high miles manual E46 M3 on the strength.
The Griff was by then down on power due to a leaking head gasket on the right bank ( due to be sorted very soon ) but I often used to wonder how the two cars would compare in a straight line.
The M3 is heavy @ circa 1560 kgs ( although I ran my one without any rear seats and this made a big difference to the weight and feel of the car.
The M3 is a " Drivers Car Par excellence, particularly with a CSL steering rack fitted, where as the Griff is a point and quirt car.
The M3s weight and its ultra short first gear and it's very slow change into second gear, really blunts it's acceleration, but once into 3rd gear, the M3 is Really piling on the speed. ( a pals tweaked 04 Scooby, used to be 8 odd car lengths away as I changed into third in the M3, but by 80 I was ready to pass him )
The Griffs sloooow gear change and its sloooow throttle response, means that it has to be revved and the clutch dumped in order to get a good standing start, but whilst the Griff is struggling for traction, the M3s traction control ensures an excellent launch.
Your thoughts Gents ?
The Griff was by then down on power due to a leaking head gasket on the right bank ( due to be sorted very soon ) but I often used to wonder how the two cars would compare in a straight line.
The M3 is heavy @ circa 1560 kgs ( although I ran my one without any rear seats and this made a big difference to the weight and feel of the car.
The M3 is a " Drivers Car Par excellence, particularly with a CSL steering rack fitted, where as the Griff is a point and quirt car.
The M3s weight and its ultra short first gear and it's very slow change into second gear, really blunts it's acceleration, but once into 3rd gear, the M3 is Really piling on the speed. ( a pals tweaked 04 Scooby, used to be 8 odd car lengths away as I changed into third in the M3, but by 80 I was ready to pass him )
The Griffs sloooow gear change and its sloooow throttle response, means that it has to be revved and the clutch dumped in order to get a good standing start, but whilst the Griff is struggling for traction, the M3s traction control ensures an excellent launch.
Your thoughts Gents ?
Punch some details here and have a play, problem is that you don't know the exact power of the griff but I would expect it to be the quicker car.
http://www.torquestats.com/modified/index.php?pid=...
http://www.torquestats.com/modified/index.php?pid=...
lancelin said:
Griff 500 is faster in a straight line and on a track with the right driver. M3 is a serious bit of engineering but doesn’t require the same driving skill.
^^^^^ this 
The amount of times I’ve bit my lip when people say Tvr don’t handle,, ok on bumpy roads they frighten the life out of me but on a nice race track with a few laps practice they absolutely fly. The standard brakes become rather a limiting factor but you can generate some serious grip with the right set up and chuck them through corners much faster than you’d imagine.
One of my fondest memories of Tvr driving was at Marham RAF base and there was a fast R/L chicane and after awhile I realised I could rotate the car just a touch going through the Right part with power oversteer then sling shot through the left by just lifting off for a split second regaining grip and the car naturally wants to turn left, I eventually had a spin there as I was really taking the Mick! I also watched a Suburu Impreza spin directly in front of me as he couldn’t understand why I was right behind him,,,, he was not a happy chap simply because he underestimated the Tvr’s ability. I hammered him,,, was it me or the car,, well if the car couldn’t do it I certainly can’t do it alone.
I used to have a passion for carts and that’s what a Tvr working well feels like to me, I can feel all 4 corners and sense things happening before it gets out of shape.
Since I’ve gone onto Rainsport 3 tyres it’s handling on the roads is marvellous and completely removed from the death trap it felt on TOYO T1R’s which to me are a terrible and dangerous tyre on these cars. I do run 17” wheels so maybe the lower profile made them worse but compared to the Rainsport,,, night and day comes to mind. That’s one of the best things I ever did to my Tvr and cost less than a decent service.
Tvr are truelly drivers cars of that there’s little doubt in my mind.
Edited by Classic Chim on Sunday 30th December 22:05
Edited by Classic Chim on Sunday 30th December 22:09
It sounds like the TVR chassis is a bit flexible for ultimate handling but who cares. It’s the man machine interface that’s important. How it makes you feel to drive is the most important thing and if it’s challenging then thats good. My every day car is so easy to drive fast - idiot proof. :-). The Tuscan race series was successful and lap times were very good probably due to a full roll cage adding stiffness.
I like both but , but for driving fun. Tvr has the edge. In the dry. In the wet BMW always in the early days I had a 390 wedge remember taking it out in the wet lost the back end on roundabout clipping the kerb damaged Oz wheel , went home got the metro out. Shouldn't have admitted to owning one. Mercedes-Benz and Griff now. Older and wiser
Re Uniroroyals, I had a terrifying spin on a wet rd with a pair of the older rainspprts 8 years ago.
Admittedly the tires were old back then and they didn't get warm to the touch even after a 4 mile drive.
Are these much improved ?
I plan on using the Griff a Lot more this year and wet ( and dry rd grip ) will be v important
I have no personal experience of earlier Rainsport tyres but a friend ran 2’s since 2014 before replacing them for 3’s last year ( non Tvr car) and he said there was an improvement. He’s very impressed with them.
I’ve noticed with my Rainsport 3 tyres they feel harder to push trend blocks around with finger since I’ve not used the car this winter as they are normally very soft and maluable.
I’m sure this is just lack of use already, I’m one for checking tyre temps with my hand too and I’ve always found they warm up really quick. It will be interesting to see after this winters hold up if they return to the maluable tyre I’ve come to like very much which I think they will.
My car feels like it has almost the same about of grip in the rain as it does in the dry now with these tyres which is very very different from any tyres I’ve had before them.
I also run larger wheels 17’s allround and like others I’ll admit the handling/ grip on poor roads was really bad with the lower profile that demands, the Rainsport for me has given me back all the compliance I lost and bumps don’t shudder the car anymore. I now hit manhole covers just to make me smile
when it used to make me cringe, big big difference and all good for me.
The grip on a summers day is just awesome, I enjoy country lanes now rather than fear them.
So pleased.
I’ve noticed with my Rainsport 3 tyres they feel harder to push trend blocks around with finger since I’ve not used the car this winter as they are normally very soft and maluable.
I’m sure this is just lack of use already, I’m one for checking tyre temps with my hand too and I’ve always found they warm up really quick. It will be interesting to see after this winters hold up if they return to the maluable tyre I’ve come to like very much which I think they will.
My car feels like it has almost the same about of grip in the rain as it does in the dry now with these tyres which is very very different from any tyres I’ve had before them.
I also run larger wheels 17’s allround and like others I’ll admit the handling/ grip on poor roads was really bad with the lower profile that demands, the Rainsport for me has given me back all the compliance I lost and bumps don’t shudder the car anymore. I now hit manhole covers just to make me smile
when it used to make me cringe, big big difference and all good for me. The grip on a summers day is just awesome, I enjoy country lanes now rather than fear them.
So pleased.
Hi C Chim, thanks for the reply, much appreciated. I am running the OE 15 front 16 rear set up ( PAS car ) on Estorils and as I plan to use the car more this year, on the odd times that I am caught out on a wet rd, it would be good to have confidence in the tyres. Plus of course dry rd grip is ultra important. Although to be fair, I have found the rear Toyos to be ok on the very few times I've been caught out in the rain.
But it's the constant soft side wall talk that is making me think that I should try another brand.
But it's the constant soft side wall talk that is making me think that I should try another brand.
+ 1 for the Rainsports. I've 15's and 16's and if I'm being honest, my first impressions were how soft and squishy they were, especially as I'd gone for one lower profile of 50 on the front , but after 100 miles and they'd broken in I found the new found 'squish' giving the car great grip and confidence to just throw it into corners and hang on.
I don't think you'd go far wrong with these on our cars.....extra points for being supposedly great in the wet too , I just haven't experienced them there yet.
I don't think you'd go far wrong with these on our cars.....extra points for being supposedly great in the wet too , I just haven't experienced them there yet.
Many people have opted for 215 on Pas cars and imho it actually improves handling to some extent.
I wouldn’t be to bothered about that personally
The point I’ve made about Rainsport 3 is they have so much more underlining grip than tyres that were designed for heavier cars, for years people used Toyo 888 as a grippy tyre but it’s absolutely useless in anything but decent weather.
The Rainsport are like a softer compound tyre but with proper wet weather capabilities so you’ve kind of got the best of both worlds.
Again this is only my experience but it’s the compliance I like about them, I can feel the car sort of hug the road rather than simply sit on top of it.
I toyed with the speed rating which is irrelevant to me as I’m not going to be doing 150 mph +
So it was about what weight the tyres can handle and after some fag packet calculations I concluded the V rating which is upto 149mph was more than enough for such a light weight car and for once i seem to have been correct as it’s given my car the grip, comfort and road holding I’d been craving.
I’ve done a fair few things over my time to get these traits with different shocks and spring rates which barely made any real difference and made worse by using bigger wheels to the point I was about to give in as I’d got sick of driving a death trap then fitting the Rainsport 3 transformed the car in so many ways,,, I kind of always knew this but could not justify the summer tyres like Toyo 888 as I knew they would be useless in bad weather and expensive.
If Jez who has won the TVR speed championship many times over many years advocates them,,, he knows what he’s talking about
Talking about racing there is a correlation to me, on a summers day I jumped in my car and travelled 150 miles on mostly motorways to Wales for a lark and when I pulled over I jumped out and felt the heat in my then Toyo T1R tyres ( stone cold) I was dismayed!
Like a slick race tyre has absolutely no grip stone cold but a lap later they work excellent I liken the Rainsport 3 to them in a similar way, the rubber needs heat to react with any tyre so if you can’t get heat into them they are useless and much to my excitement the Rainsport 3 heat up very quick which just adds to their properties.
We often hear folks say ( transformed the car) for all mannner of changes and I never thought for one minute I’d say that about these tyres as I did’nt hold out much hope but it has absolutely transformed the basic grip and it’s so enjoyable/ comfortable to drive. I’ve been in production cars with stupid low profile tyres and the ride in the Chim is now actually better,,, believe it or not
I wouldn’t be to bothered about that personally
The point I’ve made about Rainsport 3 is they have so much more underlining grip than tyres that were designed for heavier cars, for years people used Toyo 888 as a grippy tyre but it’s absolutely useless in anything but decent weather.
The Rainsport are like a softer compound tyre but with proper wet weather capabilities so you’ve kind of got the best of both worlds.
Again this is only my experience but it’s the compliance I like about them, I can feel the car sort of hug the road rather than simply sit on top of it.
I toyed with the speed rating which is irrelevant to me as I’m not going to be doing 150 mph +
So it was about what weight the tyres can handle and after some fag packet calculations I concluded the V rating which is upto 149mph was more than enough for such a light weight car and for once i seem to have been correct as it’s given my car the grip, comfort and road holding I’d been craving.
I’ve done a fair few things over my time to get these traits with different shocks and spring rates which barely made any real difference and made worse by using bigger wheels to the point I was about to give in as I’d got sick of driving a death trap then fitting the Rainsport 3 transformed the car in so many ways,,, I kind of always knew this but could not justify the summer tyres like Toyo 888 as I knew they would be useless in bad weather and expensive.
If Jez who has won the TVR speed championship many times over many years advocates them,,, he knows what he’s talking about
Talking about racing there is a correlation to me, on a summers day I jumped in my car and travelled 150 miles on mostly motorways to Wales for a lark and when I pulled over I jumped out and felt the heat in my then Toyo T1R tyres ( stone cold) I was dismayed!
Like a slick race tyre has absolutely no grip stone cold but a lap later they work excellent I liken the Rainsport 3 to them in a similar way, the rubber needs heat to react with any tyre so if you can’t get heat into them they are useless and much to my excitement the Rainsport 3 heat up very quick which just adds to their properties.
We often hear folks say ( transformed the car) for all mannner of changes and I never thought for one minute I’d say that about these tyres as I did’nt hold out much hope but it has absolutely transformed the basic grip and it’s so enjoyable/ comfortable to drive. I’ve been in production cars with stupid low profile tyres and the ride in the Chim is now actually better,,, believe it or not
Edited by Classic Chim on Friday 4th January 08:44
Edited by Classic Chim on Friday 4th January 09:27
neutral 3 said:
The M3s weight and its ultra short first gear and it's very slow change into second gear, really blunts it's acceleration............
The Griffs sloooow gear change and its sloooow throttle response, means that it has to be revved and the clutch dumped in order to get a good standing start, but whilst the Griff is struggling for traction, the M3s traction control ensures an excellent launch.
Do you mean the gear changes are slow compared to newer autos with two independent clutches? I personally think both gearboxes are very quick for old school boxes especially the T5 S10. The Griffs sloooow gear change and its sloooow throttle response, means that it has to be revved and the clutch dumped in order to get a good standing start, but whilst the Griff is struggling for traction, the M3s traction control ensures an excellent launch.
I wouldn’t call 60 mph in 5 seconds blunted, http://www.torquestats.com/index.php?car_id=16
Also what do you mean the Griffith’s slow throttle response, does it hesitate when you floor it? or do you mean a slow rate of throttle disk movement compared to throttle pedal travel?
My 4.3 is very comparable to an E46 M3 in a straight line, therefore I’m sure a 500 would be quicker.
lancelin said:
Griff 500 is faster in a straight line and on a track with the right driver. M3 is a serious bit of engineering but doesn’t require the same driving skill.
I couldn’t agree more, M3s are a master piece of engineering which makes them safer and easier to drive fast but boring, the later M cars are even more capable and more numb to drive, where as the Griff is exciting to drive at any speed.
bobfather said:
BMW M3 road fund licence will hurt at £555
My 55 plate is only £315, only the very last & rare few on 06 plates are £555, the Griff’s road tax is only £245 Edited by stevesprint on Tuesday 8th January 23:11
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