Griff 500 won’t start!
Discussion
Hi, wonder if any one can help? Was gona take my 1999 griff 500 out for a spin today as it’s the first weekend in a while it’s been dry.
Car has trickle charger which has been on all week. Got in and she fired up after a couple of cranks but left running for a couple on mins to warm her up and Dudley she just cut out. Tried to restart but totally dead, no lights on dash at all!
While she was running I was getting 13 volts on the gauge. Tried jump start from my other car ( has point in engine bay to connect to rather than having to find the battery in the footwell). Got 13 volts on gauge while jump leads connected but wouldn’t even turn over.
Put back on trickle charge for couple of hours, then at least got ignition light but engine still wouldn’t turn over!
Thinking maybe need to replace battery, but before I do i’d welcome any suggestion as to solve the problem. Thanks, Neal
Car has trickle charger which has been on all week. Got in and she fired up after a couple of cranks but left running for a couple on mins to warm her up and Dudley she just cut out. Tried to restart but totally dead, no lights on dash at all!
While she was running I was getting 13 volts on the gauge. Tried jump start from my other car ( has point in engine bay to connect to rather than having to find the battery in the footwell). Got 13 volts on gauge while jump leads connected but wouldn’t even turn over.
Put back on trickle charge for couple of hours, then at least got ignition light but engine still wouldn’t turn over!
Thinking maybe need to replace battery, but before I do i’d welcome any suggestion as to solve the problem. Thanks, Neal
Thanks for your reply, not sure how old battery is, but my first guess is that it’s not holding charge and needs replacing. I’ve read elsewhere they need changing around ever 3 years as the alarm fitted (meta) constantly drains them. See what other suggestions I get , but thinking I’ll be down the shops next weekend then rummaging around in the footwell!
Battery I reckon. I have found over the years and three Griffs and a Chimp 500, plus working on customers TVRs, that the Griff is very sensitive to a battery that is past its best. Just replaced this one under warranty. It's running far better now, But omg I hate having to get the bloody battery out of a Griff !!
In typical Pistonheads fashion I think there are a lot of assumptions being made here, ie has the OP properly tested his battery?
A proper test involves loading up the battery using a heavy discharge tester, only after such a load test can you be sure if your battery genuinely needs replacing, anything else is parts darts cheque book guess work. If the battery does fail the heavy discharge test don't just throw another battery at it without investigating why it failed in the first place, my Chimaera battery is 7 years old and I fully expect it to last another 7 years. There's absolutely no reason why we should accept short battery life on our cars, if batteries are failing early its either because the battery has been poorly maintained when the car is stored.... or far more likely with a TVR theres something else wiring related at play!
For fear of stating the obvious the battery itself is only one part in the car's entire electrical system, yes its the source of power but its absolutely essential to check everything that connects the battery to the car's electrical systems. Start with the battery cable connections at the battery posts/terminals, its extremely common to find the type of issues described by the OP are due to nothing more complicated than one or both battery terminals being loose.
Good earthing is also critical so check the earth cable security where its grounded to the transmission tunnel, if this is loose (not uncommon) it most definitely will give the symptoms described by the OP.
Next check the main feed from the battery that supplies the fuse box, look for the twin brown cables coming off the battery positive terminal, between these cables that feed the fuse box is a strip fuse that also needs checking. Any issues here will mean absolutely everything connected through the fuse box will suffer (ECU, Fuel pump, Ignition) all will cause the engine to die.
Finally move your attention to the main charge/starter cable, TVR used a very thin gauge cable for its considerable length and over the years it corrodes badly so its resistance becomes huge. The way TVR wired our cars means this very long thin (and probably now internally corroded) cable has two functions, first it supplies the high amp current to your starter motor but it also serves as your main charge cable ie it connects the battery to the alternator.
This cable also has a 100a strip fuse in it, the fuse holder being located inconveniently under the engine where there is a lot of vibration which can cause the physically weak strip fuse to crack, any hairline cracks in this fuse can give all sorts of issues. First check your alternator output at the alternator, it should be 14v, now check your alternator output at the battery, if its 13v you've lost a volt somewhere down the main charge/starter cable which is a lot and very common with Griffs & Chims.
So many people throw new batteries at this type of problem but never think to investigate the true route cause, yes the Meta security system is a parasitic draw and TVR wired the immobiliser incorrectly which itself caused the no start condition commonly reffered to as the hot start problem, but if the alternator is unable to charge the battery effectively when you're driving the car you're going to be massively punishing the battery and when you put the car away the battery will be in a very low state of charge. This is the main reason our cars will often only sit for a week before the battery fails to to provide sufficient power crank the engine.
The feeble string thin charge/starter cable used by TVR was a joke for such a long cable, add in over 20 years of internal corrosion and replacing it with a new thicker guage cable is one of the best things you can do to improve starting reliability, to ensure the full alternator charge output actually reaches the battery, and save yourself from continually buying new batteries.
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
Or just thow another new battery on the car and kid yourself you've fixed it as most do, the problem with this approach is it ends up getting expensive and eventually you'll be left stranded somewhere inconvenient.
Alternatively sort out any loose battery connections, earthing issues, and renew/upgrade that feeble TVR charge cable and you'll not only save yourself from buying new batteries way too frequently but you'll also find the car will perform and drive way better too
A proper test involves loading up the battery using a heavy discharge tester, only after such a load test can you be sure if your battery genuinely needs replacing, anything else is parts darts cheque book guess work. If the battery does fail the heavy discharge test don't just throw another battery at it without investigating why it failed in the first place, my Chimaera battery is 7 years old and I fully expect it to last another 7 years. There's absolutely no reason why we should accept short battery life on our cars, if batteries are failing early its either because the battery has been poorly maintained when the car is stored.... or far more likely with a TVR theres something else wiring related at play!
For fear of stating the obvious the battery itself is only one part in the car's entire electrical system, yes its the source of power but its absolutely essential to check everything that connects the battery to the car's electrical systems. Start with the battery cable connections at the battery posts/terminals, its extremely common to find the type of issues described by the OP are due to nothing more complicated than one or both battery terminals being loose.
Good earthing is also critical so check the earth cable security where its grounded to the transmission tunnel, if this is loose (not uncommon) it most definitely will give the symptoms described by the OP.
Next check the main feed from the battery that supplies the fuse box, look for the twin brown cables coming off the battery positive terminal, between these cables that feed the fuse box is a strip fuse that also needs checking. Any issues here will mean absolutely everything connected through the fuse box will suffer (ECU, Fuel pump, Ignition) all will cause the engine to die.
Finally move your attention to the main charge/starter cable, TVR used a very thin gauge cable for its considerable length and over the years it corrodes badly so its resistance becomes huge. The way TVR wired our cars means this very long thin (and probably now internally corroded) cable has two functions, first it supplies the high amp current to your starter motor but it also serves as your main charge cable ie it connects the battery to the alternator.
This cable also has a 100a strip fuse in it, the fuse holder being located inconveniently under the engine where there is a lot of vibration which can cause the physically weak strip fuse to crack, any hairline cracks in this fuse can give all sorts of issues. First check your alternator output at the alternator, it should be 14v, now check your alternator output at the battery, if its 13v you've lost a volt somewhere down the main charge/starter cable which is a lot and very common with Griffs & Chims.
So many people throw new batteries at this type of problem but never think to investigate the true route cause, yes the Meta security system is a parasitic draw and TVR wired the immobiliser incorrectly which itself caused the no start condition commonly reffered to as the hot start problem, but if the alternator is unable to charge the battery effectively when you're driving the car you're going to be massively punishing the battery and when you put the car away the battery will be in a very low state of charge. This is the main reason our cars will often only sit for a week before the battery fails to to provide sufficient power crank the engine.
The feeble string thin charge/starter cable used by TVR was a joke for such a long cable, add in over 20 years of internal corrosion and replacing it with a new thicker guage cable is one of the best things you can do to improve starting reliability, to ensure the full alternator charge output actually reaches the battery, and save yourself from continually buying new batteries.
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
Or just thow another new battery on the car and kid yourself you've fixed it as most do, the problem with this approach is it ends up getting expensive and eventually you'll be left stranded somewhere inconvenient.
Alternatively sort out any loose battery connections, earthing issues, and renew/upgrade that feeble TVR charge cable and you'll not only save yourself from buying new batteries way too frequently but you'll also find the car will perform and drive way better too
Edited by ChimpOnGas on Monday 28th October 08:47
Neal500griff said:
Hi, wonder if any one can help? Was gona take my 1999 griff 500 out for a spin today as it’s the first weekend in a while it’s been dry.
Car has trickle charger which has been on all week. Got in and she fired up after a couple of cranks but left running for a couple on mins to warm her up and Dudley she just cut out. Tried to restart but totally dead, no lights on dash at all!
While she was running I was getting 13 volts on the gauge. Tried jump start from my other car ( has point in engine bay to connect to rather than having to find the battery in the footwell). Got 13 volts on gauge while jump leads connected but wouldn’t even turn over.
Put back on trickle charge for couple of hours, then at least got ignition light but engine still wouldn’t turn over!
Thinking maybe need to replace battery, but before I do i’d welcome any suggestion as to solve the problem. Thanks, Neal
Once the engine was running it should have kept running on the alternator output even if the battery was faulty, this is assuming that the engine had been revved high enough for the alternator to cut-inCar has trickle charger which has been on all week. Got in and she fired up after a couple of cranks but left running for a couple on mins to warm her up and Dudley she just cut out. Tried to restart but totally dead, no lights on dash at all!
While she was running I was getting 13 volts on the gauge. Tried jump start from my other car ( has point in engine bay to connect to rather than having to find the battery in the footwell). Got 13 volts on gauge while jump leads connected but wouldn’t even turn over.
Put back on trickle charge for couple of hours, then at least got ignition light but engine still wouldn’t turn over!
Thinking maybe need to replace battery, but before I do i’d welcome any suggestion as to solve the problem. Thanks, Neal
Yes the alternator could be a problem
Should have 14 to 14.5 volts at a good battery when the alternator is charging (charge voltage 14 to 14.5 depends on regulator type/rating)
Alternator cut-in speeds vary
Rotor size/type, pulley size and warning light wattage all affect cut-in speed
RPMs below are as shown by the tachometer
Alternators should cut-in anything from 800 RPM to 1200 RPM if the circuit is good and is using a 5 Watt warning light bulb
The cut-in speed could be as much as 2000 RPM to 3000 RPM Should the warning light bulb or its circuit be faulty
Should have 14 to 14.5 volts at a good battery when the alternator is charging (charge voltage 14 to 14.5 depends on regulator type/rating)
Alternator cut-in speeds vary
Rotor size/type, pulley size and warning light wattage all affect cut-in speed
RPMs below are as shown by the tachometer
Alternators should cut-in anything from 800 RPM to 1200 RPM if the circuit is good and is using a 5 Watt warning light bulb
The cut-in speed could be as much as 2000 RPM to 3000 RPM Should the warning light bulb or its circuit be faulty
Edited by Penelope Stopit on Wednesday 30th October 18:07
Hi everyone,
Had a go at sorting the griff this afternoon, problem appears to be the inline fuse. When checked it was corroded and had actually cracked in two, causing an intermittent connection.
So hopefully no need for a new battery! Will fit new fuse tomorrow and hopefully that’ll be problem solved..... but will still be upgrading the feed cable to something properly up to the job as suggested also very shortly!
Thanks everyone for your help.
Had a go at sorting the griff this afternoon, problem appears to be the inline fuse. When checked it was corroded and had actually cracked in two, causing an intermittent connection.
So hopefully no need for a new battery! Will fit new fuse tomorrow and hopefully that’ll be problem solved..... but will still be upgrading the feed cable to something properly up to the job as suggested also very shortly!
Thanks everyone for your help.
Pleased to hear that you have found the fault.
There are two in-line fuses, I think the one you are referring to is the 100 amp fuse between the starter and the alternator. The other in-line fuse is between the battery and the fuse board and is 80 amp. If this one fails you lose everything.
Both of these can be replaced with Midi fuses which fit the same fuse holder and are said to be less prone to cracking.
Changing the battery cable is certainly worthwhile. My starter motor was always very sluggish when trying to re-start when hot, however changing the TVR 25 mm cable to a 40 mm cable completely cured the problem. Be careful, some people advocate much heavier cables but heavier is also fatter and even my 40 mm cable was not that easy to feed through the bulkhead and down to the starter motor.
Hope this may be of some help to you.
There are two in-line fuses, I think the one you are referring to is the 100 amp fuse between the starter and the alternator. The other in-line fuse is between the battery and the fuse board and is 80 amp. If this one fails you lose everything.
Both of these can be replaced with Midi fuses which fit the same fuse holder and are said to be less prone to cracking.
Changing the battery cable is certainly worthwhile. My starter motor was always very sluggish when trying to re-start when hot, however changing the TVR 25 mm cable to a 40 mm cable completely cured the problem. Be careful, some people advocate much heavier cables but heavier is also fatter and even my 40 mm cable was not that easy to feed through the bulkhead and down to the starter motor.
Hope this may be of some help to you.
Edited by Hedgehopper on Thursday 7th November 10:20
Edited by Hedgehopper on Thursday 7th November 10:21
Neal500griff said:
Hi everyone,
Had a go at sorting the griff this afternoon, problem appears to be the inline fuse. When checked it was corroded and had actually cracked in two, causing an intermittent connection.
So hopefully no need for a new battery! Will fit new fuse tomorrow and hopefully that’ll be problem solved..... but will still be upgrading the feed cable to something properly up to the job as suggested also very shortly!
Thanks everyone for your help.
Nicely doneHad a go at sorting the griff this afternoon, problem appears to be the inline fuse. When checked it was corroded and had actually cracked in two, causing an intermittent connection.
So hopefully no need for a new battery! Will fit new fuse tomorrow and hopefully that’ll be problem solved..... but will still be upgrading the feed cable to something properly up to the job as suggested also very shortly!
Thanks everyone for your help.
Pretty sure Hedgehopper means 25mm and 40mm battery cable
Glad you have found the problem. I had the 100amp fuse break while in France. Appears its was the old style fuse which is quite long but thin so over xx,000 the slight flex/vibration along its length eventually caused it to crack. I replaced it then filled the fuse holder with silicon.
ESDavey said:
Glad you have found the problem. I had the 100amp fuse break while in France. Appears its was the old style fuse which is quite long but thin so over xx,000 the slight flex/vibration along its length eventually caused it to crack. I replaced it then filled the fuse holder with silicon.
^^^With the greatest respect, Simon, I'd have a problem with applying silicone over/around the strip fuse.IMHO, you'd never be able to do a visual check, and removal of the strip fuse is made that much harder.
There's lots of post on PH regarding replacing this fuse with a 100A "midi fuse" - these are 'mechanically' more robust - and will fit in the existing fuse holder. Not expensive, I got one from local auto electrical place for £2~£3.
Nick
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