just curious 4.3 vs 500
Discussion
Oh god!This question has to come up every so often doesnt it
FWIW my own take on it is that the 500 is certainly the better car.Its often said that every model tvr gets better the longer its in production,and i certainly think this is true of the griff.The 500 will,withoubt doubt be more powerfull and faster,have nicer interior,better mechanicals and look beter for the open mouthed front.Personally the only griffs i dont like are the 'SE' last 100 type,but many will say theyre the nicest-personal taste i guess.
But having said all that,you know what,i wish i had brought a 4.3 pre-cat! They are my first and most fond memories of the griff and I wish i'd experienced what theyre like.To me an original 4.3 is as good as it gets,the sound,performance,purity and exclusivity are what its all about.I only wish i could afford both!I've now found my perfect 500,so i just cant sell it,as its so hard to let go of what you know is such a good car,but if ever i lost it(write off,stolen etc)then i'd look for the best 4.3 i could find.If you buy the 4.3 first,then you could always change up should you wish,at least you will have 'been there'
FWIW my own take on it is that the 500 is certainly the better car.Its often said that every model tvr gets better the longer its in production,and i certainly think this is true of the griff.The 500 will,withoubt doubt be more powerfull and faster,have nicer interior,better mechanicals and look beter for the open mouthed front.Personally the only griffs i dont like are the 'SE' last 100 type,but many will say theyre the nicest-personal taste i guess. But having said all that,you know what,i wish i had brought a 4.3 pre-cat! They are my first and most fond memories of the griff and I wish i'd experienced what theyre like.To me an original 4.3 is as good as it gets,the sound,performance,purity and exclusivity are what its all about.I only wish i could afford both!I've now found my perfect 500,so i just cant sell it,as its so hard to let go of what you know is such a good car,but if ever i lost it(write off,stolen etc)then i'd look for the best 4.3 i could find.If you buy the 4.3 first,then you could always change up should you wish,at least you will have 'been there'
500 every time.
The early cars are great in their own right but don't be fooled they're anything like as a good as a 500 in real terms, especially if you intend to do significant hours in the driving seat where the constant fidgeting through the suspension/steering and complete lack of ventilation/heating (compared to the 500) in the 4.X cars quickly becomes tiresome..
The early cars are great in their own right but don't be fooled they're anything like as a good as a 500 in real terms, especially if you intend to do significant hours in the driving seat where the constant fidgeting through the suspension/steering and complete lack of ventilation/heating (compared to the 500) in the 4.X cars quickly becomes tiresome..
I drove both and bought the 4.3 because:
It's 'revvier' and needs to be revved to go fast. Don't get me wrong, it's very torquey, but the 500 is torquier. Thing is I found the 500 too torquey. Difficult to drive in town and shuntier due to the torque. Whereas to an extent the 500 can be driven on the torque all day long, the 4.3 is most fun when revved and working the gears. As driving fun rather than tireless cruising was what I wanted, 4.3 it was.
The principle suspension difference between the 500 and the 4.3 (all precats in fact) are a rear anti-roll bar and different springs and shocks. Hardly any precats will have their original springs and shocks on now. They'll either be fitted with 500 units, or aftermarket units with improved performance. A rear anti-roll bar means the movement of one side of the suspension interferes with the movement of the other side (as it does on the front) as the arb connects the two sides. In effect each side is no longer fully independent. All well and good on a flat track where the anti-roll characteristic is the prime effect, perhaps less so when you're putting the power down on a bumpy lane and the suspension cannot operate totally independently one side to the other (as is the case with no arb). Now I'm not saying rear arbs are no good! But IMHO on 'real roads' they can have drawbacks, including snap oversteer - so the precat not having one didn't bother me.
Detail interior changes include switch gear - heater control knobs and a heater control computer which seems to go expensively wrong, instruments which sit proud rather than flush with the dashboard, instrument layout, steering wheel design...er that's it. I don't think much else, and not that I've noticed, quality, separates the two models on the inside. With the age of these cars now I think fit and finish depends more on how many times it's been taken apart and badly put back together than how it was built in the first place.
Stuff which does matter which differs includes:
Gearbox - most 500s have the T5. Generally regarded as superior to the LT77 gracing precats, but the LT77 seems to be fine if looked after. I actually like it's notchiness - again requires concentration, but that's the fun.
Ancilliary drive belts - most 500s have a serpentine belt, generally regarded as superior to the 'V' belt system - although I think this is to do with changes to the oil pump drive contemporary with the belt change rather than the belt per se.
Brakes - (All?) 500s have bigger front brakes. Precat brakes work fine when working properly, can't say bigger wouldn't be better though!
Nose - 500 has an 'E-type' nose. I concede this does look better than the 'drove out of the mould into a wall' precat nose and affords better airflow for cooling and intake.
Lambda sensors - the 500 has a feedback loop in the fuel injection control system. It's one more thing to go wrong, but at least when it does it can tell you; the precat system has less advanced diagnostics.
500s can be had with power steering and air con. See 'more to go wrong' and 'driving rather than cruising' comments above
Contemporary road tests criticised the 'skittish' handling of the precat. The 500 is generally acknowlegded to be improved (must be that arb...), but neither are Lotus-like. I think of the Griff as a muscle car first, a sportscar second. You've got bear in mind all cars are different. The comments above apply, in my opinion, to the cars I drove. I'm sure there are 500s which are pussy cats in town and which rev smoothly and cleanly, ride like a Rolls Royce and corner on rails.
In short, yes the 500 probably is the better car. More sorted, more comfortable, faster, better brakes. Is that why you're buying a TVR though? If you want greater driver involvement, noise, raw character, I vote precat. It's a bit like M3 vs M3. The E36 is the 'better' car; more power, more refinement, more comfort. But the E30 is generally regarded as the preferable car to thrash round a track.
Classics? I would say each is a classic on its own right. Different flavours, equally cool.
It's 'revvier' and needs to be revved to go fast. Don't get me wrong, it's very torquey, but the 500 is torquier. Thing is I found the 500 too torquey. Difficult to drive in town and shuntier due to the torque. Whereas to an extent the 500 can be driven on the torque all day long, the 4.3 is most fun when revved and working the gears. As driving fun rather than tireless cruising was what I wanted, 4.3 it was.
The principle suspension difference between the 500 and the 4.3 (all precats in fact) are a rear anti-roll bar and different springs and shocks. Hardly any precats will have their original springs and shocks on now. They'll either be fitted with 500 units, or aftermarket units with improved performance. A rear anti-roll bar means the movement of one side of the suspension interferes with the movement of the other side (as it does on the front) as the arb connects the two sides. In effect each side is no longer fully independent. All well and good on a flat track where the anti-roll characteristic is the prime effect, perhaps less so when you're putting the power down on a bumpy lane and the suspension cannot operate totally independently one side to the other (as is the case with no arb). Now I'm not saying rear arbs are no good! But IMHO on 'real roads' they can have drawbacks, including snap oversteer - so the precat not having one didn't bother me.
Detail interior changes include switch gear - heater control knobs and a heater control computer which seems to go expensively wrong, instruments which sit proud rather than flush with the dashboard, instrument layout, steering wheel design...er that's it. I don't think much else, and not that I've noticed, quality, separates the two models on the inside. With the age of these cars now I think fit and finish depends more on how many times it's been taken apart and badly put back together than how it was built in the first place.
Stuff which does matter which differs includes:
Gearbox - most 500s have the T5. Generally regarded as superior to the LT77 gracing precats, but the LT77 seems to be fine if looked after. I actually like it's notchiness - again requires concentration, but that's the fun.
Ancilliary drive belts - most 500s have a serpentine belt, generally regarded as superior to the 'V' belt system - although I think this is to do with changes to the oil pump drive contemporary with the belt change rather than the belt per se.
Brakes - (All?) 500s have bigger front brakes. Precat brakes work fine when working properly, can't say bigger wouldn't be better though!
Nose - 500 has an 'E-type' nose. I concede this does look better than the 'drove out of the mould into a wall' precat nose and affords better airflow for cooling and intake.
Lambda sensors - the 500 has a feedback loop in the fuel injection control system. It's one more thing to go wrong, but at least when it does it can tell you; the precat system has less advanced diagnostics.
500s can be had with power steering and air con. See 'more to go wrong' and 'driving rather than cruising' comments above
Contemporary road tests criticised the 'skittish' handling of the precat. The 500 is generally acknowlegded to be improved (must be that arb...), but neither are Lotus-like. I think of the Griff as a muscle car first, a sportscar second. You've got bear in mind all cars are different. The comments above apply, in my opinion, to the cars I drove. I'm sure there are 500s which are pussy cats in town and which rev smoothly and cleanly, ride like a Rolls Royce and corner on rails.
In short, yes the 500 probably is the better car. More sorted, more comfortable, faster, better brakes. Is that why you're buying a TVR though? If you want greater driver involvement, noise, raw character, I vote precat. It's a bit like M3 vs M3. The E36 is the 'better' car; more power, more refinement, more comfort. But the E30 is generally regarded as the preferable car to thrash round a track.
Classics? I would say each is a classic on its own right. Different flavours, equally cool.
thanks for the views, i might be getting a company car in the new year and if i do have no use for my CLK so might as well buy something a tad more impractical to sit in the garage next to the bike, ive always wanted a TVR and love the Tuscan however i dont trust the engine and i only want to spend around £15k and when i was young was a huge fan of the Griff so if i get a company car im going to take the plunge and buy one, so the gereral concensus(sp?) is that a 500 is overall a better buy? i love the 500 but a 4.3 appeals because its rarer and if the power figures are similar then i guess performace figuures are similar too? ive gathered the 4.1 secs and 167 MPH is TVR been a tad optimistic anyway,is the interior different in each model?
you can get a 500 with A/C? i knew about power steering but i never thought any Griff/Chim had A/C
>> Edited by YamR1,V64motion on Sunday 4th December 17:12
also just to add, what is acceptable milage to buy one with? i know its an old bulletproof V8 so the engine will go on as long as you want it to but what things go usually?,ive heard the suspension is one to look at
is one with 40 or 50k on the clock too high.
i saw this one and wouldnt mind something like this, what are your opinions
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/TVR-Griffith-4-3-litre-Non-Cat
IMHO, first choice would be a 4.3BV, then a few sensible mods to iron out some of the earlier problems, just to make it a little more usable, although original BV’s are few and far between. The 4.5 is almost impossible to get hold of, I think that there were only 6 made so it is not even a starter.
Second choice a 4.3 then have the heads done and a little engine work, plus the sensible mods (if you get a 4.0 you will need a new crank to make it a 4.3 which are difficult to get hold of and you are into a complete rebuild).
I looked for an original BV for a long time, with the intent of adding a few mods, as above. I managed to get the factory publicity 4.3BV but that had a 500 chassis, suspension, gearbox, diff, interior, alarm etc etc. It is obviously not an original BV and it would be a big waste of money to do all that to an original BV car, but as it was all done by the factory, for me it is the ultimate Griff.
It produces approximately 290 lb / ft of torque on the Austec dyno, which is more than enough for me. Mine is a little mad as it has a very low ratio diff, which means I am spinning in 4th in the wet, which I have to say gets you attention when it is raining! Even without the diff it would still be way quick enough unless you are called Stig!
In my opinion you buy a Griff because it looks great, for the noise and straight line speed (a modern hot hatch will give you a run for your money round the bends with their stability control, traction control etc).
For me the first cars were unique: a light weight car, which looks great, a fantastic sound track, no cats, no power steering, no ABS, no airbags, with a near race tuned V8 engine. In 20 years time I am sure that history will view the 4.3BV and the 4.5BV’s as the most important Griffs (what ever important means?). I agree with mongoose, the last hundred 500’s are not my taste.
If you are buying don’t under estimate how much you will need to spend to bring a car up to a really high standard, and make it really reliable and usable. I basically bought a car with a fresh engine (6,000 miles since total rebuild), a recent 500 chassis, suspension etc and new interior and I have still had to spend another £6,000k to get it right. Even so, next on the list are new manifolds, a front end respray, a Mark Adams session etc – it is an illness.
However, with the top down on a crisp dry morning, flooring it in third and being catapulted past slower traffic makes it all worth while. You feel like you are alive.
I had a guy stand by the car at a motorway service station the other day as a returned to it. I looked at him and realising that he was just staring at the car, he apologised but said that he was just waiting for me to start it up!
When I did he just beamed from ear to ear like a kid (he looked 40 something) either it gets you or it doesn’t. If it doesn’t, an M3 would be best.
Peter
Second choice a 4.3 then have the heads done and a little engine work, plus the sensible mods (if you get a 4.0 you will need a new crank to make it a 4.3 which are difficult to get hold of and you are into a complete rebuild).
I looked for an original BV for a long time, with the intent of adding a few mods, as above. I managed to get the factory publicity 4.3BV but that had a 500 chassis, suspension, gearbox, diff, interior, alarm etc etc. It is obviously not an original BV and it would be a big waste of money to do all that to an original BV car, but as it was all done by the factory, for me it is the ultimate Griff.
It produces approximately 290 lb / ft of torque on the Austec dyno, which is more than enough for me. Mine is a little mad as it has a very low ratio diff, which means I am spinning in 4th in the wet, which I have to say gets you attention when it is raining! Even without the diff it would still be way quick enough unless you are called Stig!
In my opinion you buy a Griff because it looks great, for the noise and straight line speed (a modern hot hatch will give you a run for your money round the bends with their stability control, traction control etc).
For me the first cars were unique: a light weight car, which looks great, a fantastic sound track, no cats, no power steering, no ABS, no airbags, with a near race tuned V8 engine. In 20 years time I am sure that history will view the 4.3BV and the 4.5BV’s as the most important Griffs (what ever important means?). I agree with mongoose, the last hundred 500’s are not my taste.
If you are buying don’t under estimate how much you will need to spend to bring a car up to a really high standard, and make it really reliable and usable. I basically bought a car with a fresh engine (6,000 miles since total rebuild), a recent 500 chassis, suspension etc and new interior and I have still had to spend another £6,000k to get it right. Even so, next on the list are new manifolds, a front end respray, a Mark Adams session etc – it is an illness.
However, with the top down on a crisp dry morning, flooring it in third and being catapulted past slower traffic makes it all worth while. You feel like you are alive.
I had a guy stand by the car at a motorway service station the other day as a returned to it. I looked at him and realising that he was just staring at the car, he apologised but said that he was just waiting for me to start it up!
When I did he just beamed from ear to ear like a kid (he looked 40 something) either it gets you or it doesn’t. If it doesn’t, an M3 would be best.
Peter
i wouldnt ever buy an M3 i just dont like them, i know thier a quick and very capable car but they just dont appeal to me, i have wanted a Tvr since i was about 12, i could probably buy an early Tuscan but i dont want a speed 6 or to have engine rebuilds all the time, and i found the Cerbera a little claustophobic inside, i never have really liked the Chim, the styling doesnt appeal to me so really it has to be the Griff, which im more than happy about, i just hope i get a company car as i really want one,even if i cant afford to insure it straight away and it sits in the garage for a couple of months it will make me happy just to look at it and start it up
>> Edited by YamR1,V64motion on Sunday 4th December 18:08
Its not so much the suspension, £500 gets you a full set of AVO or Gaz adjustable shocks. The key thing on an early car is the chassis, especialy the out riggers. You can easily find that you are into a body off restoration and all the problems that you would find on a 13 year old car. You could spend the same again as the car on ebay.
Best to get yourself a copy of the TVR Griffith and Chimaera by Steve Heath (the bible). It is a fantastic book and has a section on buying one. Also, Log on to www.ballisticbanana.co.uk,lots of good stuff there and join the TVR club, where you can order a copy of the bible. The TVR griffith story by Roger Shackleton is also an excellent book and has lots of detail and info from owners.
For the books and club membership, around £100. However, you would get that back and more when you come to buy, with all the info to hand.
Good luck
Peter
Best to get yourself a copy of the TVR Griffith and Chimaera by Steve Heath (the bible). It is a fantastic book and has a section on buying one. Also, Log on to www.ballisticbanana.co.uk,lots of good stuff there and join the TVR club, where you can order a copy of the bible. The TVR griffith story by Roger Shackleton is also an excellent book and has lots of detail and info from owners.
For the books and club membership, around £100. However, you would get that back and more when you come to buy, with all the info to hand.
Good luck
Peter
[quote=YamR1,V64motion]you can get a 500 with A/C? i knew about power steering but i never thought any Griff/Chim had A/C[/quote]
Yes,there are some with a/c,but not many.Contrary to popular myth the a/c works well,and i for one would never be without it,even in winter!
The 4.3 youve found on e-bay has been on there a while,i think more than once.It appears to have the last 3 years with no service history,hence the reason its going on e-bay i'd imagine.Personally i'd stay well away from such a car,and i would much rather pay a lot more for one with fsh that has been looked after well.Such cars are rarely a 'bargain'.
Yes,there are some with a/c,but not many.Contrary to popular myth the a/c works well,and i for one would never be without it,even in winter!
The 4.3 youve found on e-bay has been on there a while,i think more than once.It appears to have the last 3 years with no service history,hence the reason its going on e-bay i'd imagine.Personally i'd stay well away from such a car,and i would much rather pay a lot more for one with fsh that has been looked after well.Such cars are rarely a 'bargain'.
it wouldnt be until sometime into the new year but are there any owners local to surrey/sw london, that would look at one with me? obviously i would collect them so they need not drive, i agree the 4.3 on e bay does look a bit dodgy, to be honest i want to find a looked after one that doesnt require bundles of work, obviously i know they have a few niggles with them but from what i gather unless modding the car substatialy, fixing things is reletivly inexpensive most of the time especially if you do it yourself, also what are the servicing intervals like on them, are they every 6000 miles like the Speed 6 TVRs?
>> Edited by YamR1,V64motion on Sunday 4th December 18:41
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