MC2 or H404 or leave as standard?

[GarryM]

Unexpectedly, I may need a new cam. I have looked back through old threads and it seems these two cams seem to be favourites. I just wondered how those people who have them are getting on?

I enjoy tracking my car but I have to say it would bug the hell out of me if low speed driving is ruined.

Also, I have no intention of chipping or doing any other engine mods at the moment so whichever cam goes in has to function with the standard chip for the time being at least. I know it would be sensible to get it chipped but I’d rather wait until I’ve modified other bits too (if I ever do).

Any experience would be greatly appreciated.

[bluebottle]

I had the mc1 cam fitted a couple of months ago, and now the engine is run in a bit it feels really good. Plenty of torque throughout the rev range but very smooth at low revs.
I beleive the mc2 and the H404 are the same aren't they?

[Guillotine]

H404 is a good cam.

no maintenance, good pulling power thru the revs.

good for what you do. lost 1bhp on rollers to the 404.

not as punchy as the 404 but i found it quicker on track.


no chipping or fuelling required on the cam change alone, you are only moving the power curve a touch ( or widening it) so unless you are going ballistic it should be fine on normal type cams talked about here. my cam comes in seriously at 5k revs...no good for std engine!

[mongoose]

GarryM said:

Unexpectedly, I may need a new cam. I have looked back through old threads and it seems these two cams seem to be favourites. I just wondered how those people who have them are getting on? I enjoy tracking my car but I have to say it would bug the hell out of me if low speed driving is ruined. Also, I have no intention of chipping or doing any other engine mods at the moment so whichever cam goes in has to function with the standard chip for the time being at least. I know it would be sensible to get it chipped but I’d rather wait until I’ve modified other bits too (if I ever do). Any experience would be greatly appreciated.

Very pleased with my H404,but i havent tried either of the others.The bit you mention about worrying about low speed driving characteristics,makes me slightly nervous about saying 'go for it' though.If your the type who likes to drive around in fifth at 1500 revs,then you wont like it.But if your like i am,and never drive below 2000 revs(never did in a std 500),then you would love it,it's all a bit subjective really.Another factor that will affect how it behaves,is wheather your going to have any other induction mods to go with it,and if your going to map the ignition?I know it's difficult,but it's one of those situations where the only way of knowing for sure is to try one!Lastly,it's worth adding that i ran mine with no re-map for 6 months-no problem!

>> Edited by mongoose on Thursday 16th February 18:38

[GarryM]

Thank you all for your replies.

There's never a simple answer to these things is there!

The low speed bit is driving through town or 30 limits. I can't recall what rev's the car is doing in these situations but I can remember when I first got the car it just wouldn't do it without stuttering and jerking. Keeping it in tune put an end to that but I still remember how irritating it was and that was over 4 years ago and only lasted for a few months! To recreate that as a result of spending a big wad of cash doesn't appeal!

Good to hear that a different cam will work with the standard chip (even if a remap would improve it).

[IPAddis]

Quinny said:

I went for an MC1 with no rechip and was really happy with it, much smoother than the original, especially at low revs and good pulling power right through the rev range. Since changed to an H404 but can't comment on driving with it yet as the car is still not on the road, but it did make 300 bhp on the rr, but with other mods as well. I've kept the MC1 as it'd only done about 3k miles, and if I don't like the H404 I'll have no hesitation in removing it. So I suppose I'll have to wait and see.

I asked V8D about switching from an MC1 to a H404 and they did agree I would notice less torque low down (i.e. below 3000rpm). The car came to within 3bhp of H404 and Taraka cars at a Surrey Rolling Road day.

Personally, I think this makes the car more fun for road driving. Heavy track use obviously favours the 404 based cams but then you probably have enough cash to go for a solid 404 with adjustable pushrods.

Ian A.

[mongoose]

The thing you have to be carefull of when comparing just numbers,is to remember that they don't tell the real story.The MC1 may well have come within 3bhp of a H404 on surrey rr,but thats just a peak figure your talking there.The spread of torque and the power curve may well be quite different,making tha cars performance very different,and consequently its driving characteristics also.This will also be altered depending on associated mods.As i said,the H404 is the only one i have experience of,but peak power isnt reached until bang on 6k rpm on my car,and the torque curve is also very impressive.Peak torque is at 4.5k,and you still have 80% of max torque at 6.2k and almost the same at 2k!This makes the engine feel very strong all the way up to 6k,it just feels like it'll never stop pulling!!Like i said before though,it wouldn't suit everybody,depending on your driving style/preferences.

[GarryM]

mongoose - you should be in sales! Your description sounds great. Can you give me a bit of info' regarding low speed driving? At a guess, I'd say driving through a 30 mph limit in 3rd gear would be about 1750 - 2000 revs. Will it do this without kangarooing all over the place? Is it actually smooth at this speed?

High speed is obviously the fun bit and my car is used mainly as a toy so the H404 sounds ideal. The trouble is I get easily iritated by things not working as they should and stuttering annoys me. It's made worse as my car has a small amount of diff backlash so the stuttering can be noisy as well as uncomfortable.

Any opinions appreciated.

[mongoose]

GarryM said:

mongoose - you should be in sales! Your description sounds great. Can you give me a bit of info' regarding low speed driving? At a guess, I'd say driving through a 30 mph limit in 3rd gear would be about 1750 - 2000 revs. Will it do this without kangarooing all over the place? Is it actually smooth at this speed? High speed is obviously the fun bit and my car is used mainly as a toy so the H404 sounds ideal. The trouble is I get easily iritated by things not working as they should and stuttering annoys me. It's made worse as my car has a small amount of diff backlash so the stuttering can be noisy as well as uncomfortable. Any opinions appreciated.

As i said,it's more about characteristics than peak power figures.If you want max peak power then you go for a full race cam,which would be crap if you drive through town every day.Mine doesn't kangaroo all over the place through town,but i keep the revs at 2k minimum.You find you play the clutch a bit more than you would with a std. car for instance.I wouldn't get into the numbers game,and would concentrate more on how much of a compromise your prepared to make in ease of low revs driving in trade for the performance you want/crave.If you don't drive in traffic too often,then i think you might be very pleased with the H404.If i drove in traffic,then i'm sure i'd prefer the MC1.To me it's not which one is better,its about which suits best.

[GarryM]

Thanks Andy. From what you say I can see the MC1 is the sensible choice. Decisions, decisions! I must say, I've never really felt the standard cam was deficient and although I'd like more at the top end (who wouldn't? ), the increased wear and strain on the engine may put me off using it much.

I should get some prices through shortly which may either encourage me to go for extra mods or just stick to the cam. Thanks all.

[Guillotine]

GarryM said:

Thanks Andy. From what you say I can see the MC1 is the sensible choice. Decisions, decisions! I must say, I've never really felt the standard cam was deficient and although I'd like more at the top end (who wouldn't? ), the increased wear and strain on the engine may put me off using it much. I should get some prices through shortly which may either encourage me to go for extra mods or just stick to the cam. Thanks all.

Garry, more at the top end will first come from induction, then from the cam moving the curve further up the rev range. a cam with too much height will add side pressure to your valve stems and may lead to head probs. A 404 probably will, partucularly mechanical 404. the H404 gets the power from duration so does not put too much strain on the over sprung TVR heads.

Bigger injectors + more power at the top too, but they are harder to control at low revs so jerky.

sounds like you need to keep it as near std as poss. unless you go the whloe hog, which is the key!

isn't the MC1 practically the same as a TVR500 cam? if not actually the same? could be wrong, I've gad so many cams in my time!!

[HarryW]

I think its closer to the kent 218 than the TVR435 fitted to most 500's, V8D did a hybrid 218 before the MC1.

[IPAddis]

mongoose said:

The thing you have to be carefull of when comparing just numbers,is to remember that they don't tell the real story.The MC1 may well have come within 3bhp of a H404 on surrey rr,but thats just a peak figure your talking there.The spread of torque and the power curve may well be quite different,making tha cars performance very different,and consequently its driving characteristics also.

Very true, in fact I think it was Trackcar (nee Joolz) who said that it's the "area under the torque curve" that matters. Mine was significantly higher at around 3000rpm than the 404 cammed cars. I'll see if I can dig out the original torque plot.

I also agree that it depends on the other mods (and my engine did make an unusual 278bhp pre-mods) but most of the cars at that particular rr day has similar mods.

I can't argue with the top end of the 404 cams but I certainly would consider the MC1 if you are thinking about predominantly road use.

Ian A.

[howardm]

Does anyone know if the TVR power cam which they call the t/p sports cam (fitted in the drive in drive out convertion)is similar to either the MC2 or H404?
Byetheway I have taken out the eprom chip( fitted with this convertion) and had a session with Mark Adams which with some induction mods has improved things cosiderably

[mongoose]

howardm said:

Does anyone know if the TVR power cam which they call the t/p sports cam (fitted in the drive in drive out convertion)is similar to either the MC2 or H404? Byetheway I have taken out the eprom chip( fitted with this convertion) and had a session with Mark Adams which with some induction mods has improved things cosiderably

I dont know about the MC2,but the Taraka is,err..,shall we say,very very similar to the 404 which preceeded it!

[GarryM]

It's been explained to me that there is a progression from MC1 to MC2 to P404. I've gone for the MC2 which should be installed and ready for collection later today Keevil on Monday to see how it performs

[mongoose]

GarryM said:

It's been explained to me that there is a progression from MC1 to MC2 to P404. I've gone for the MC2 which should be installed and ready for collection later today Keevil on Monday to see how it performs

Yep,that was how it was explained to me also.You won't be dissapointed im sure,i think your gonna love it!!

[bluebottle]

Have you got it back Gary? I hope its feels as good as mine does.
Look forward to seeing how it compares with mine on Monday.

[GarryM]

Just back from picking it up. Feels fine so far. I'm being very conscious not to labour the engine so not going below 2k revs and it's just about smooth at that level and smooth and free revving above that. Ended up having quite a bit of work done on the engine so I'll be more sensible than normal on Monday!