The Aircon-Thing again
Discussion
Hello again,
have been around and talking with some people here in germany who think that they are able to build an aircon into my griff 4.3 from 93. but they also told me that there have to be some changes because its not possible to build the compressor in with the cars original configuration of the alternator and the coolant tank. so they told me to ask if some griff owner with an airconditioned car (doesn´t matter if originally by the factory or not) probably could help me out with a picture of his engine bay to see how the alternator and the other part are located. i would be very very happy about every picture. please mail me at jerko@usmiani.de
many many thanks in advance and kind regards
jerko
have been around and talking with some people here in germany who think that they are able to build an aircon into my griff 4.3 from 93. but they also told me that there have to be some changes because its not possible to build the compressor in with the cars original configuration of the alternator and the coolant tank. so they told me to ask if some griff owner with an airconditioned car (doesn´t matter if originally by the factory or not) probably could help me out with a picture of his engine bay to see how the alternator and the other part are located. i would be very very happy about every picture. please mail me at jerko@usmiani.de
many many thanks in advance and kind regards
jerko
There are definately pre-serp cars(500's) with air con.I think the compressor is mounted on the opposite side to the alternator from memory?Hopefully someone will post soon
It would be great if you can get this fitted,i've never heard of it being done on a pre-cat before,most get put off before trying.Best of luck,Mike
It would be great if you can get this fitted,i've never heard of it being done on a pre-cat before,most get put off before trying.Best of luck,Mike
I was going to have it fitted to my 93 Griff when the engine was out at TVR Power a few years ago.
What I was told was that firstly the units were rubbish and never really worked and secondly, not only was it an engine out job but some of the bodywork needed to be cut away.
All in, I was put off the idea, but for a few days every year I seem to regret the descision
What I was told was that firstly the units were rubbish and never really worked and secondly, not only was it an engine out job but some of the bodywork needed to be cut away.
All in, I was put off the idea, but for a few days every year I seem to regret the descision
Horse_Apple said:
I was going to have it fitted to my 93 Griff when the engine was out at TVR Power a few years ago.
What I was told was that firstly the units were rubbish and never really worked and secondly, not only was it an engine out job but some of the bodywork needed to be cut away.
An all too common response,as i found when i had mine retro fitted to my last griff.In the end only TVR M.A.D.S.,i think it was,and Team Proactive(now defunct-most of them moved to Central TVR)were prepared to have a go.Its a big job,and i got the impression that not many had done it before,so i guess theres the potential for the workshop to loose out big time,if things don't go to plan.What I was told was that firstly the units were rubbish and never really worked and secondly, not only was it an engine out job but some of the bodywork needed to be cut away.
Many many thanks to cornish boy ;-) am sure that your info will help !
Horse_Apple said:
"I was going to have it fitted to my 93 Griff when the engine was out at TVR Power a few years ago. What I was told was that firstly the units were rubbish and never really worked and secondly, not only was it an engine out job but some of the bodywork needed to be cut away."
Have heard that and so didn´t bought a griff with aircon. but it sucks! to hot these days ! don´t personally think that it´s unmakable after seeing how the compressor (main thing of the aircon) was fitted into the engine bay. There was definetly no bodywork needed originally by TVR.
Mongoose said:
"An all too common response,as i found when i had mine retro fitted to my last griff.In the end only TVR M.A.D.S.,i think it was,and Team Proactive(now defunct-most of them moved to Central TVR)were prepared to have a go.Its a big job,and i got the impression that not many had done it before,so i guess theres the potential for the workshop to loose out big time,if things don't go to plan."
Allready thought about that. it will be a winter job and surely not done by myself! but the engine bay of the griff has still some little place to put the alternator in and so instead of the alternator place the aircon compressor. (TVR placed the alternator above the compressor) luckyly today there are much more better heatshield components than in 93. and the alternators nowadays are also much more heat-resisant than those from 93.
the tricky thing seems to be to find a place for the condensator. and this part needs fresh cool air and as we all know there is no place supplied with cold fresh air within the griffs engine bay (except cutting a hole in the hood - don´t even think with david beers fans). we´re thinking about where to place the condensator without cutting into the bodywork. my personal idea is to make place an air pipe directly from the main front air inlet to the condensator. there is place enough cause my griff does not need this air inlet anymore (totaly closed it and no probs). this because of the air ram (to efficiantly use the lower air inlet) and the improved fans.
the prob with this idea is that the car will immediately overheat when the fans have a prob. and since the water temperature gauge in my griff lies i have to change this also. probably we will have to cut the hood or - even better - the wheelhouses to give more air to the engine bay.
however, it seems to be possible and that makes it interesting for me. would really like to drive the griff closed with aircon in the summer. and am not willing to buy a porsche instead just becaus of the aircon ;-)(
kind regards
jerko
Horse_Apple said:
"I was going to have it fitted to my 93 Griff when the engine was out at TVR Power a few years ago. What I was told was that firstly the units were rubbish and never really worked and secondly, not only was it an engine out job but some of the bodywork needed to be cut away."
Have heard that and so didn´t bought a griff with aircon. but it sucks! to hot these days ! don´t personally think that it´s unmakable after seeing how the compressor (main thing of the aircon) was fitted into the engine bay. There was definetly no bodywork needed originally by TVR.
Mongoose said:
"An all too common response,as i found when i had mine retro fitted to my last griff.In the end only TVR M.A.D.S.,i think it was,and Team Proactive(now defunct-most of them moved to Central TVR)were prepared to have a go.Its a big job,and i got the impression that not many had done it before,so i guess theres the potential for the workshop to loose out big time,if things don't go to plan."
Allready thought about that. it will be a winter job and surely not done by myself! but the engine bay of the griff has still some little place to put the alternator in and so instead of the alternator place the aircon compressor. (TVR placed the alternator above the compressor) luckyly today there are much more better heatshield components than in 93. and the alternators nowadays are also much more heat-resisant than those from 93.
the tricky thing seems to be to find a place for the condensator. and this part needs fresh cool air and as we all know there is no place supplied with cold fresh air within the griffs engine bay (except cutting a hole in the hood - don´t even think with david beers fans). we´re thinking about where to place the condensator without cutting into the bodywork. my personal idea is to make place an air pipe directly from the main front air inlet to the condensator. there is place enough cause my griff does not need this air inlet anymore (totaly closed it and no probs). this because of the air ram (to efficiantly use the lower air inlet) and the improved fans.
the prob with this idea is that the car will immediately overheat when the fans have a prob. and since the water temperature gauge in my griff lies i have to change this also. probably we will have to cut the hood or - even better - the wheelhouses to give more air to the engine bay.
however, it seems to be possible and that makes it interesting for me. would really like to drive the griff closed with aircon in the summer. and am not willing to buy a porsche instead just becaus of the aircon ;-)(
kind regards
jerko
LastLawyer said:
but the engine bay of the griff has still some little place to put the alternator in and so instead of the alternator place the aircon compressor. (TVR placed the alternator above the compressor)
LastLawyer said:
the tricky thing seems to be to find a place for the condensator. and this part needs fresh cool air and as we all know there is no place supplied with cold fresh air within the griffs engine bay (except cutting a hole in the hood - don´t even think with david beers fans). we´re thinking about where to place the condensator without cutting into the bodywork.
If we are talking about the part that looks more like an old heater marix,then this sits inside the inner wing, n/side, behind the AFM.
Hi mongoose,
my Griff is not a pre cat.
You wrote:
On a pre-cat car i would have thought you would still have no problems mounting the compressor in the same way as the pre-serp 500's,surely this would be easiest?
Do you probably have a picture of the engine bay of a pre-serp 500 with aircon ? i received some pics of a serp-500 but on these all the components (alternator, aircon, waterpump) were driven by only one wider belt. that would mean a lot of changes to my car because it has a normal tension belt (not the wider one). so i would be very interested in seeing how tvr solved that on the pre-serp.
You wrote:
I'm sorry that i'm not too familiar with the name of some of the a/c components,but if we are talking about the part that looks like a radiator,on the 500's these are underneath the radiator.I dont know how possible this would be on a pre-cat,but surely it's the best/only place?
Yes i think it´s the part looking like a radiator and the place underneath the rad seems to be the best to mount it.
Many thanks and cheers
Jerko
my Griff is not a pre cat.
You wrote:
On a pre-cat car i would have thought you would still have no problems mounting the compressor in the same way as the pre-serp 500's,surely this would be easiest?
Do you probably have a picture of the engine bay of a pre-serp 500 with aircon ? i received some pics of a serp-500 but on these all the components (alternator, aircon, waterpump) were driven by only one wider belt. that would mean a lot of changes to my car because it has a normal tension belt (not the wider one). so i would be very interested in seeing how tvr solved that on the pre-serp.
You wrote:
I'm sorry that i'm not too familiar with the name of some of the a/c components,but if we are talking about the part that looks like a radiator,on the 500's these are underneath the radiator.I dont know how possible this would be on a pre-cat,but surely it's the best/only place?
Yes i think it´s the part looking like a radiator and the place underneath the rad seems to be the best to mount it.
Many thanks and cheers
Jerko
LastLawyer said:
Hi mongoose,
my Griff is not a pre cat.
I realise you might have cats Jerko,but the relevant bit is really all about which heating/ventilation system you have.If you have the same system as the 4.3 pre-cats here in the uk,then the conversion will be more involved. my Griff is not a pre cat.
If you have the same system as a 500,then it would be relatively straightforward,as there are a few pre-serp 500's out there with a/c as fitted by the factory.I'm sure someone out there with a/c on a pre-serp might be able to take an underbonnet picture for you,this would show the seperate alternator and compressor positions,on opposite sides of the engine,and the two seperate belts that drive them.
I'm going away for one or two days tomorrow,but when i come back i will take some picture of my serp a/c system,including the more relevent condenser location,pipework etc
Cheers,Mike
Edited by mongoose on Wednesday 5th July 22:27
Lastlawyer
Can't help you technically re installation but returned earlier this week to Toulouse from Le Mans Classic and had roof down but aircon on due to sweltering temperatures (40°c on motorway) and it was a huge benefit.
When I bought car (a '98 500) 4 months ago aircon wasn't working due to low gas but have since had it properly serviced and recharged and all I can say to those who say it's ineffective is get yours properly serviced. With a temperature probe inside one of the airvents we got down to 0°c with max fan!
Cheers
Philip
Can't help you technically re installation but returned earlier this week to Toulouse from Le Mans Classic and had roof down but aircon on due to sweltering temperatures (40°c on motorway) and it was a huge benefit.
When I bought car (a '98 500) 4 months ago aircon wasn't working due to low gas but have since had it properly serviced and recharged and all I can say to those who say it's ineffective is get yours properly serviced. With a temperature probe inside one of the airvents we got down to 0°c with max fan!
Cheers
Philip
philippo said:
Lastlawyer
Can't help you technically re installation but returned earlier this week to Toulouse from Le Mans Classic and had roof down but aircon on due to sweltering temperatures (40°c on motorway) and it was a huge benefit.
When I bought car (a '98 500) 4 months ago aircon wasn't working due to low gas but have since had it properly serviced and recharged and all I can say to those who say it's ineffective is get yours properly serviced. With a temperature probe inside one of the airvents we got down to 0°c with max fan!
Cheers
Philip
Agree with you there Philip.I wonder of those experiencing 'ineffective' a/c,how many have the heater valve properly calibrated?Obviously you need the coolest air to start with before you chill it! Can't help you technically re installation but returned earlier this week to Toulouse from Le Mans Classic and had roof down but aircon on due to sweltering temperatures (40°c on motorway) and it was a huge benefit.
When I bought car (a '98 500) 4 months ago aircon wasn't working due to low gas but have since had it properly serviced and recharged and all I can say to those who say it's ineffective is get yours properly serviced. With a temperature probe inside one of the airvents we got down to 0°c with max fan!
Cheers
Philip
I'm about to try another little mod to make the blower far run a bit faster than std too
Mike, may I ask roughly how much it cost to retro-fit to your Griff? I didn't spec a/c on mine when I bought it new 7 years ago (logic said if it was sunny I'd have the roof off - in fact I spec'd heated seats for those winter top off days ) but as I go to France more often these days where it's even hotter I am considering it. Was it all agro' or did the job progress well? I'd be interested in your experience. Rgds Rich...
) but as I go to France more often these days where it's even hotter I am considering it. Was it all agro' or did the job progress well? I'd be interested in your experience. Rgds Rich...richb said:
Mike, may I ask roughly how much it cost to retro-fit to your Griff? I didn't spec a/c on mine when I bought it new 7 years ago (logic said if it was sunny I'd have the roof off - in fact I spec'd heated seats for those winter top off days ) but as I go to France more often these days where it's even hotter I am considering it. Was it all agro' or did the job progress well? I'd be interested in your experience. Rgds Rich...
) but as I go to France more often these days where it's even hotter I am considering it. Was it all agro' or did the job progress well? I'd be interested in your experience. Rgds Rich...Baretti,this mod will only apply to a 500 unfortunately,it's just a simple bypass of the heater ecu,so the fan gets maximum volts from the battery(more volts mean more speed).I'm not even sure if it will make a difference,but it costs bugger all to try it
Have you seen what 60 Maxx has done on the griff pages?the extra blower looks great.It would also be worth checking how much volt drop is at the blower,and replacing the cable for a larger one if necesary. Rich,the A/c cost 3-3.5k.It was no hassle for me as it was just a week off the road,i didn't get involved in anything.Mine was done by the then 'Team Proactive' who no longer exist,but the main man Adrian,now runs Central TVR in the midlands.The only other place that i found were willing to fit it at the time were TVR M.A.D.S.,i think.Its worth ringing around though,a couple of years ago it wasn't a poular request,but i've met a couple of people now who want it done,so someone out there might be realising theres a market for it.Dulford might be woth asking i feel.
Edited by mongoose on Thursday 13th July 19:27
I have tried the fan mod, unfortunately no gain, well on my car anyway ! Still the lights/windows/cooling fans/hot start/ have all been greatly improved with wiring changes. Once the heater valve is set up and you keep the fan on to prevent heat build up in the inner wing, you can get coolish air, of course air con would be nice though. Standard aircon does not always have cooling fans on all the time when it is on, so the condensor rad doesnt cool the "stuff" so it is not as good as a "normal car", simple mod to do though.
david beer said:
I have tried the fan mod, unfortunately no gain, well on my car anyway ! Still the lights/windows/cooling fans/hot start/ have all been greatly improved with wiring changes. Once the heater valve is set up and you keep the fan on to prevent heat build up in the inner wing, you can get coolish air, of course air con would be nice though. Standard aircon does not always have cooling fans on all the time when it is on, so the condensor rad doesnt cool the "stuff" so it is not as good as a "normal car", simple mod to do though.
Good point about the fans not being on all the time David.Arent they activated by a temp switch somewhere,as mine come on with the a/c,just after the car has started sometimes! To be honest,if ever your going slow enough for the fans to be effective,at this time of year theyre usually on for the coolant anyway.
Have you had the blower fan out of yours yet David?I was wondering if it is definately in the passenger footwell/inner wing,and just how easy it is to remove?
Hi Mike, not had it out but it is in the battery area, in the wing of course ! It has two windings, for older cars with two speed, i assume. The "fast" winding is used as the variable speed unit needs to be able to go to full speed. I have been interested in adding a "turbo" (well another blower) at the intake area, just never got round to it, also sealing all the flexi hoses behind the dash, i am sure half the air goes behind the dash. In my days of "jap crap" i fitted AC to 323,626,mx6,rx7turbo, they fell out of the box into the car and only had the system pumped up, oh wish it were that simple on the Griff as i use it most days at the moment. Another mad theory, those portable electric 12v fridge jobbies, the cooling thing is a small block that if you had a few in the inner wing, umm ! I did take mine apart and they certainly do cool, but the hot part would not be wanted in there. They draw quite a current so fuel economy would be hit, but hey ho, we dont drive V8s and practice "green" !
Hi David,
will you ever send me your High-End double Fan Kit ? ;-( Hope you received my last Email but since i did´nt receive an answer so i try it this way.
However, the new Ford-Fiesta Fans work very stable and cool down quick. But till they did the car is allready heated up to the maxx. so please !!!
You wrote:
"..Once the heater valve is set up and you keep the fan on to prevent heat build up in the inner wing, you can get coolish air ..."
How can i check if my heater valve is on cold or hot ? Where is it ? Allthough i never use the air fans within the car (meaning the fans which should or could push fresh air into the car) it seems to get to hot inside. The funny thing is that the air entries within the car have completely no function at all because behind the dash there are no airpipes leading to the air inlets. Is this normal for a 4.3 1993 Griff or has the pre-owner worked this out (whatever his intention was) ?
You wrote:
"... also sealing all the flexi hoses behind the dash, i am sure half the air goes behind the dash..."
Do you mean the hoses leading air to the front window or those air inlets in the dash ? (No hoses there in my car :-( )
You wrote:
"...Another mad theory, those portable electric 12v fridge jobbies, the cooling thing is a small block that if you had a few in the inner wing, umm ! I did take mine apart and they certainly do cool, but the hot part would not be wanted in there. They draw quite a current so fuel economy would be hit, but hey ho, we dont drive V8s and practice "green" !.."
Sorry but did´nt unterstand that. What are they exactly, where can i get them, where do they have to built in and will they have the wished cooling effect ? I give a damn about fuel economy ;-)
Thanks a lot & kind regards
Jerko
will you ever send me your High-End double Fan Kit ? ;-( Hope you received my last Email but since i did´nt receive an answer so i try it this way.
However, the new Ford-Fiesta Fans work very stable and cool down quick. But till they did the car is allready heated up to the maxx. so please !!!
You wrote:
"..Once the heater valve is set up and you keep the fan on to prevent heat build up in the inner wing, you can get coolish air ..."
How can i check if my heater valve is on cold or hot ? Where is it ? Allthough i never use the air fans within the car (meaning the fans which should or could push fresh air into the car) it seems to get to hot inside. The funny thing is that the air entries within the car have completely no function at all because behind the dash there are no airpipes leading to the air inlets. Is this normal for a 4.3 1993 Griff or has the pre-owner worked this out (whatever his intention was) ?
You wrote:
"... also sealing all the flexi hoses behind the dash, i am sure half the air goes behind the dash..."
Do you mean the hoses leading air to the front window or those air inlets in the dash ? (No hoses there in my car :-( )
You wrote:
"...Another mad theory, those portable electric 12v fridge jobbies, the cooling thing is a small block that if you had a few in the inner wing, umm ! I did take mine apart and they certainly do cool, but the hot part would not be wanted in there. They draw quite a current so fuel economy would be hit, but hey ho, we dont drive V8s and practice "green" !.."
Sorry but did´nt unterstand that. What are they exactly, where can i get them, where do they have to built in and will they have the wished cooling effect ? I give a damn about fuel economy ;-)
Thanks a lot & kind regards
Jerko
LastLawyer said:
"..Once the heater valve is set up and you keep the fan on to prevent heat build up in the inner wing, you can get coolish air ..."
How can i check if my heater valve is on cold or hot ? Where is it ?
see here for starters: www.pistonheads.co.uk/gassing/topic.asp?t=270491
LastLawyer said:
Allthough i never use the air fans within the car (meaning the fans which should or could push fresh air into the car) it seems to get to hot inside. The funny thing is that the air entries within the car have completely no function at all because behind the dash there are no airpipes leading to the air inlets. Is this normal for a 4.3 1993 Griff or has the pre-owner worked this out (whatever his intention was) ?
You wrote:
"... also sealing all the flexi hoses behind the dash, i am sure half the air goes behind the dash..."
Do you mean the hoses leading air to the front window or those air inlets in the dash ? (No hoses there in my car :-( )
The air vents should be connected to the left hand side inner wing above the footwell by a collection of flexible pipes. These are held together by nothing more than assorted plastic plumbing connections and masking tape. If yours aren't there, they were either taken out, or never fitted. The cabin fan blows into the left hand side inner wing - hence the connection of the vent pipes. Take a look (dash moulding off will make it much easier) then go to a hardware store and buy about 2 metres of flexible pipe and a T-piece. Then make up a W shape, with an additional section for connection to the inner wing. To be honest you're still not going to get much cool air though the system is just poorly designed.
Having read that description, and from memory, I can't see how you'd ever get hot air to the cabin vents...is hot air for the screen only (fed from heater box)? Or does the heater box feed the inner wing?
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