Discussion
After having run faultlessly for 500 miles over the weekend my griff gave me my first proper mechanical breakdown on the way back from Le Mans yesterday.
I'm not all that mechanically minded and whilst I can understand what I have been told I was hoping to get some information on the possible causes of the failure and to understand if this is a "common" failure.
I'm told, and the evidence was quite plain to see, that my Woodruff Key had sheared and the bolt retaining the crankshaft pulley had also sheared. The pulley was sat loose on the crossmember beneath its mounting. Interestingly the belt was undamaged and (in my mind more worryingly) I had lost oil on the road between the incedent to the point at which I stopped but didn't appear to be losing anymore having stopped.
If anyone can help me to understand what's gone on I'd be grateful, including :-
What are likely causes of that type of failure
Are they a common occurance ?
Where would the oil come from ?
What damage is likely to have done to the rest of the engine ?
Any advice / info would be much appreciated, particularly along the lines of "happens all the time, won't cost much to fix !"
Cheers
Andy.
I'm not all that mechanically minded and whilst I can understand what I have been told I was hoping to get some information on the possible causes of the failure and to understand if this is a "common" failure.
I'm told, and the evidence was quite plain to see, that my Woodruff Key had sheared and the bolt retaining the crankshaft pulley had also sheared. The pulley was sat loose on the crossmember beneath its mounting. Interestingly the belt was undamaged and (in my mind more worryingly) I had lost oil on the road between the incedent to the point at which I stopped but didn't appear to be losing anymore having stopped.
If anyone can help me to understand what's gone on I'd be grateful, including :-
What are likely causes of that type of failure
Are they a common occurance ?
Where would the oil come from ?
What damage is likely to have done to the rest of the engine ?
Any advice / info would be much appreciated, particularly along the lines of "happens all the time, won't cost much to fix !"
Cheers
Andy.
Blimey!
A rare occurance, never heard of it happening before, I'd have siad all that has happened is the bolt holding the pulley on the front has worked loose allowing the pulley to chatter back and forth so damaging the key and the bolt.
The oil would have run out of the front crankshaft seal as if the pulley falls out then there's nothing for it to seal against.
Potentially if the front of the crank is OK and the front cover is OK then a new woodruff key, a new bolt (re-fit with some oil on the threads) and make sure its torqued up properly and off you go again
Matt
A rare occurance, never heard of it happening before, I'd have siad all that has happened is the bolt holding the pulley on the front has worked loose allowing the pulley to chatter back and forth so damaging the key and the bolt.
The oil would have run out of the front crankshaft seal as if the pulley falls out then there's nothing for it to seal against.
Potentially if the front of the crank is OK and the front cover is OK then a new woodruff key, a new bolt (re-fit with some oil on the threads) and make sure its torqued up properly and off you go again
Matt
I flew out to Prague last year to try & fix a friends LH Chim where the crank pulley bolt had sheared. The woodruff key was ok. I thought the pulley bolt must have been coming undone & had broken off on the last part of the thread so I tried drilling & easi-outs but to no avail.
I the end the car was taken to a Ferrari/Lambo dealer...heaven knows what they thought of a Tiv!.....who raised the engine & drilled out the broken part, had a new bolt made & then refitted. No damage done to the engine.
I would suggest you start looking for the crank pulley bolt immeadiatley. At the time the bolt was back order (with no expected delivery time) with Land Rover & I tried numerous dealers, independents & RV8 specialists i.e. Reel Steel, Rimmer Bros etc but no one had stock. Eventually I did find one breaker that had a secondhand bolt but my friend, one bitten etc, decided to get a new one machined in Prague.
I the end the car was taken to a Ferrari/Lambo dealer...heaven knows what they thought of a Tiv!.....who raised the engine & drilled out the broken part, had a new bolt made & then refitted. No damage done to the engine.
I would suggest you start looking for the crank pulley bolt immeadiatley. At the time the bolt was back order (with no expected delivery time) with Land Rover & I tried numerous dealers, independents & RV8 specialists i.e. Reel Steel, Rimmer Bros etc but no one had stock. Eventually I did find one breaker that had a secondhand bolt but my friend, one bitten etc, decided to get a new one machined in Prague.
Funny - though Bodmin would apprear with that one..
If it's of any interest - I did notice that TVR Power had the woodruf key (£4) and crank bolt on their new website and
Name: Front pulley bolt
PART No: E0260 £3.50
http://www.powerstores.co.uk/?t=cat&c=engine
Also - I just bought a competetion front damper and pulley - fully balanced from John Eales - delivered for < £100.. it's a good tight fit aparently - so might be useful is the original has been spinning away without the woodruf key :
JE might have the key and bolt too !
http://www.rover-v8.com/JEEngineering/web.nsf/page...
If it's of any interest - I did notice that TVR Power had the woodruf key (£4) and crank bolt on their new website and
Name: Front pulley bolt
PART No: E0260 £3.50
http://www.powerstores.co.uk/?t=cat&c=engine
Also - I just bought a competetion front damper and pulley - fully balanced from John Eales - delivered for < £100.. it's a good tight fit aparently - so might be useful is the original has been spinning away without the woodruf key :
JE might have the key and bolt too !
http://www.rover-v8.com/JEEngineering/web.nsf/page...
You can only use the JE competition damper if your engine has either been properly balanced after TVR or your existing damper is completely neutral, which if it is then I'll be very surprised. Check the backplate for welded bits of bolt.
I have the JE comp damper and JE recommends immersing in hot water prior to install. It has been known that a poor install forced on shifted the woodruff key, which then smached the front cover/oil pump causing far more significant issues.
When my crank pulley bolt broke at 115mph on the way to the MotoGP the head of the bolt smashed into the oil filte ripping a 2 inch hole in it, the pulley didn't come off but the car was pumping ooil out all over the engine and down the o/s as fast as you can imagine. I knocked off the engine and then set about getting of the road with one go on the brakes and no power steering, it was fun !
It is not uncommon for them to fail at all and i wouldn't be worried about it. Getting th remaining bolt out can be a pain, but I seriously doubt any further damage or need to chang anything but the key and the bolt.
I have the JE comp damper and JE recommends immersing in hot water prior to install. It has been known that a poor install forced on shifted the woodruff key, which then smached the front cover/oil pump causing far more significant issues.
When my crank pulley bolt broke at 115mph on the way to the MotoGP the head of the bolt smashed into the oil filte ripping a 2 inch hole in it, the pulley didn't come off but the car was pumping ooil out all over the engine and down the o/s as fast as you can imagine. I knocked off the engine and then set about getting of the road with one go on the brakes and no power steering, it was fun !
It is not uncommon for them to fail at all and i wouldn't be worried about it. Getting th remaining bolt out can be a pain, but I seriously doubt any further damage or need to chang anything but the key and the bolt.
Thanks for all your encouraging words folks. I've been fishing for info where I can and it would seem that worst case is that the crank itself has been damaged as the pulley has rotated on it to come off and will need replacing. The best I can hope for is that just the bolt and woodruff key need replacing. My guess from seeing the head of the bolt is that the bolt sheared approximately half way down so hopefully not too difficult a job to get it out.
Thanks again for your thoughts.
Andy.
Thanks again for your thoughts.
Andy.
Johno said:
You can only use the JE competition damper if your engine has either been properly balanced after TVR or your existing damper is completely neutral, which if it is then I'll be very surprised. Check the backplate for welded bits of bolt.
I have the JE comp damper and JE recommends immersing in hot water prior to install. It has been known that a poor install forced on shifted the woodruff key, which then smached the front cover/oil pump causing far more significant issues.
When my crank pulley bolt broke at 115mph on the way to the MotoGP the head of the bolt smashed into the oil filte ripping a 2 inch hole in it, the pulley didn't come off but the car was pumping ooil out all over the engine and down the o/s as fast as you can imagine. I knocked off the engine and then set about getting of the road with one go on the brakes and no power steering, it was fun !
It is not uncommon for them to fail at all and i wouldn't be worried about it. Getting th remaining bolt out can be a pain, but I seriously doubt any further damage or need to chang anything but the key and the bolt.
If you're playing around with fitting transition or interference fit parts, invest in some Rocol Anti-Scuffing Paste I have the JE comp damper and JE recommends immersing in hot water prior to install. It has been known that a poor install forced on shifted the woodruff key, which then smached the front cover/oil pump causing far more significant issues.
When my crank pulley bolt broke at 115mph on the way to the MotoGP the head of the bolt smashed into the oil filte ripping a 2 inch hole in it, the pulley didn't come off but the car was pumping ooil out all over the engine and down the o/s as fast as you can imagine. I knocked off the engine and then set about getting of the road with one go on the brakes and no power steering, it was fun !
It is not uncommon for them to fail at all and i wouldn't be worried about it. Getting th remaining bolt out can be a pain, but I seriously doubt any further damage or need to chang anything but the key and the bolt.
It's designed to prevent products "picking up". You can also test fit the woodruff key in the pulley before hand in the vice to ensure it's not too tight. I always file a very slight chamfer on a key slot before fitting.Johno said:
You can only use the JE competition damper if your engine has either been properly balanced after TVR or your existing damper is completely neutral, which if it is then I'll be very surprised. Check the backplate for welded bits of bolt.
I have the JE comp damper and JE recommends immersing in hot water prior to install. It has been known that a poor install forced on shifted the woodruff key, which then smached the front cover/oil pump causing far more significant issues.
When my crank pulley bolt broke at 115mph on the way to the MotoGP the head of the bolt smashed into the oil filte ripping a 2 inch hole in it, the pulley didn't come off but the car was pumping ooil out all over the engine and down the o/s as fast as you can imagine. I knocked off the engine and then set about getting of the road with one go on the brakes and no power steering, it was fun !
It is not uncommon for them to fail at all and i wouldn't be worried about it. Getting th remaining bolt out can be a pain, but I seriously doubt any further damage or need to chang anything but the key and the bolt.
Yes - the old dilema of replacing anything from the front pulley to the flywheel .. because TVR did the cheapo balancing in one piece.I have the JE comp damper and JE recommends immersing in hot water prior to install. It has been known that a poor install forced on shifted the woodruff key, which then smached the front cover/oil pump causing far more significant issues.
When my crank pulley bolt broke at 115mph on the way to the MotoGP the head of the bolt smashed into the oil filte ripping a 2 inch hole in it, the pulley didn't come off but the car was pumping ooil out all over the engine and down the o/s as fast as you can imagine. I knocked off the engine and then set about getting of the road with one go on the brakes and no power steering, it was fun !
It is not uncommon for them to fail at all and i wouldn't be worried about it. Getting th remaining bolt out can be a pain, but I seriously doubt any further damage or need to chang anything but the key and the bolt.
Guess it must have saved £10.
I had a similar problem with my 98 500, in which, the bold didn't shear, but came loose and allowed the pulley to jump around thus leaking oil out the front crank seal.
I did a lot of research into why this occurred and discovered that apparently the bolts can stretch and either just come loose(me) or shear(you).
Whilst the repair process seemed generally quite logical, I (and another well respected independent!) didn't notice that the pulley jumping around had actually worn the end of the crank to a slight degree. This small amount of wear unfortunately ended up causing the crank seal to fail twice (and put the pulley + damper out of balance), baffling both myself and the trade.
The second time it failed, I thankfully noticed the wear. I contacted TVR power, who recommended balancing the pulley assy (again!) and putting max strength loctite in the pulley recess to compensate for the wear.
Second time lucky! a dry and balanced trev!
I guess what i'm saying is CHECK YOUR CRANK FOR WEAR! as it's probably been loose for longer than you think!
Tom
The car I learnt to drive in ('83 MG Metro) was written off because the crank pulley came off. Chewed the woodruff key slot as it went. Uneconomical to repair... With hindsight, a bit of time with a Dremel, a MIG and a new woodruff key might have sorted it.
If you're lucky you'll get away with just new parts. If you're not, would it be possible to cut a new woodruff key slot in situ? It'd throw the bottom pulley timing marks out and ideally the pulley would want rebalancing - but it might save a full engine rebuild.
If you're lucky you'll get away with just new parts. If you're not, would it be possible to cut a new woodruff key slot in situ? It'd throw the bottom pulley timing marks out and ideally the pulley would want rebalancing - but it might save a full engine rebuild.
Gassing Station | Griffith | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff