Hot start issue

[FlipFlopGriff]

Is there any relay/anything which can be changed to help short term. I've got a hot start kit from DB but not fitted it yet. Obviously now its a priority. Mrs FFG is stuck up in Lincoln for the wekend with work and has to get on an MoD base so has to turn it off and sit and wait. Shes got 2 or 3 relays in the car.
Any help appreciated - she has access to internet on her laptop so can look.
Thanks all.
FFG

[Cider Andy]

A standard relay (20A or 30A), four pieces of wire and a connector is all that's needed. Even better with a fuse and fuseholder.

There's nothing already in the car that can be substituted to help, but if she's got the stuff in the car there's comprehensive installation instructions here.

[David Beer]

Is it the pre cat? If so its done under bonnet. Same mod though. Griff and chin pages have details

[FlipFlopGriff]

Cheers guys, its the 500 and Mrs FFG's been in Lincolnshire all weekend and the kit is in Worcestershire.
Happened twice Friday and suspect she may have the same issue when filling up today although its way cooler now than back end of last week.
FFG

[Barreti]

Wouldn't popping the bonnet to ease temps in the engine bay help with this problem?

Sorry for the thicky question but my pre-cat doesn't suffer with this.
Just idle curiosity really. I'm idle and curious

[Simon.b]

There’s not much you can do until the starter circuit has been identified and the relay inserted other than a push start or crawling under the car with a wide blade screw driver.

You can try holding the key in the on position for a few seconds, which sometimes works, though I’m not sure if this might over heat the immobiliser rely.

[Dave 500]

Bypass the starter motor part of your immobiliser the relays seem to cook themselves over time(or better yet upgrade your old meta three relay immobiliser with a new two relay system from Carl). I bet you never have another hot start problem again....

[LordGrover]

Not really any long-term help, but a friend of mine (who introduced me to Griffdom), had a 500 as his company car. When he suffered the hot-start issue he took it back to the dealer. He was told, in a patronising and condescending way 'They all do that sir. You must get into the habit of pulling up at the garage forecourt and popping the bonnet before refuelling. The time it takes to fill and pay should be adequate to minimise the inconvenience. If it is still too hot, a minute or two with the ignition on will allow the fans to do their job.'
Although he thought that a thirty-odd grand car shouldn't have this kind of issue he accepted it because he loved the car. He rarely had the problem if he followed this procedure.

I'm not saying any of us should treat this as good advice, but it may help if a proper remedy cannot be found to eliminate the cause.

[Dave 500]

LordGrover said:

Not really any long-term help, but a friend of mine (who introduced me to Griffdom), had a 500 as his company car. When he suffered the hot-start issue he took it back to the dealer. He was told, in a patronising and condescending way 'They all do that sir. You must get into the habit of pulling up at the garage forecourt and popping the bonnet before refuelling. The time it takes to fill and pay should be adequate to minimise the inconvenience. If it is still too hot, a minute or two with the ignition on will allow the fans to do their job.'
Although he thought that a thirty-odd grand car shouldn't have this kind of issue he accepted it because he loved the car. He rarely had the problem if he followed this procedure.

I'm not saying any of us should treat this as good advice, but it may help if a proper remedy cannot be found to eliminate the cause.

He was fobbed off they just can't be arsed to sort it out.... Its things like this that has given are cars a bad rep

[Bluebottle]

Dave 500 said:

LordGrover said:

Stuff...

He was fobbed off they just can't be arsed to sort it out.... Its things like this that has given are cars a bad rep

To a certain degree I agree with you but, some cars are just prone to this issue. My car ate three starter in the first 12 months of ownership along with two 100amp fuses, the last starter was despite fitting the modwise hot start and two stage fan kits (in fairness the last starter did have a couple of months use before i fitted DB's excellant kits). But even with his kit and Ali rad, I still get a lazy starter if i return to the car within 15mins and I havent popped the bonnet.
My previous Griff never had the problem. I think it has something to do with the hand built nature of these cars that's effecting airodynamics and the airflow through the engine bay, as some cars are affected by high speed front end lift and others aren't as well.

Edited by Bluebottle on Monday 7th July 17:11

[neal1980]

Im just about to do a body off, is there anything I can do to stop this happenning why its all in pieces rather than fit the kit. Like thicker cables etc? It happened to me twice and its always when you have a bird in the car!!!

[Simon.b]

In my opinion the kit should be fitted regardless, the immobiliser circuit appears not capable of delivering the amount of current required for all conditions.

I also found that relocating the Immobiliser unit to a cooler location also helped, mine was located behind the dash on top of the transmission tunnel.

Cheers,

Simon.

[griffter]

neal1980 said:

Im just about to do a body off, is there anything I can do to stop this happenning why its all in pieces rather than fit the kit. Like thicker cables etc? It happened to me twice and its always when you have a bird in the car!!!

I thought this problem was caused by the starter solenoid being switched directly from the key, instead of via a relay? Using a relay (correctly sited without unnecessarily long wires) means less voltage loss at the solenoid, hence more positive operation of the solenoid even when suffering from heat.
In which case, all you need to do is suitably install a relay in the solenoid circuit. Mines behind the dash where it can't be hotwired...

[Bodmin]

griffter said:

neal1980 said:

Im just about to do a body off, is there anything I can do to stop this happenning why its all in pieces rather than fit the kit. Like thicker cables etc? It happened to me twice and its always when you have a bird in the car!!!

I thought this problem was caused by the starter solenoid being switched directly from the key, instead of via a relay? Using a relay (correctly sited without unnecessarily long wires) means less voltage loss at the solenoid, hence more positive operation of the solenoid even when suffering from heat.
In which case, all you need to do is suitably install a relay in the solenoid circuit. Mines behind the dash where it can't be hotwired...

Correct & we normally fit a heat reflective blanket around the starter to deflect the exhaust manifold heat.

This problem has usually been associated with the Rover V8 engines but recently we have had a few Cerbera AJP8 suffering the same problem so we have applied the same mod & there have been no further issues on these cars

Richard
Austec Racing

[Bluebottle]

Bodmin said:

griffter said:

neal1980 said:

Im just about to do a body off, is there anything I can do to stop this happenning why its all in pieces rather than fit the kit. Like thicker cables etc? It happened to me twice and its always when you have a bird in the car!!!

I thought this problem was caused by the starter solenoid being switched directly from the key, instead of via a relay? Using a relay (correctly sited without unnecessarily long wires) means less voltage loss at the solenoid, hence more positive operation of the solenoid even when suffering from heat.
In which case, all you need to do is suitably install a relay in the solenoid circuit. Mines behind the dash where it can't be hotwired...

Correct & we normally fit a heat reflective blanket around the starter to deflect the exhaust manifold heat.

This problem has usually been associated with the Rover V8 engines but recently we have had a few Cerbera AJP8 suffering the same problem so we have applied the same mod & there have been no further issues on these cars

Richard
Austec Racing

Isn't there two schools of thought regarding wrapping insulation around the starter motor Richard;

On the one hand it helps to prevent heat radiating to it but on the other hand, when stationary the starter acts like a heat soak and in that situation the insulation prevents that heat from escaping? Wouldn't it be better to have a heat deflector (CliveF Special) and allow free air flow around the starter?

Edited by Bluebottle on Tuesday 8th July 18:13

[David Beer]

Correct & we normally fit a heat reflective blanket around the starter to deflect the exhaust manifold heat.

This problem has usually been associated with the Rover V8 engines but recently we have had a few Cerbera AJP8 suffering the same problem so we have applied the same mod & there have been no further issues on these cars

Richard
Austec Racing
[/quote]

So is a relay also used ? If you look at Cerbie threads, this is a problem solved with a relay correctly wired, ie not in the boot.

[Bodmin]

Bluebottle said:

Bodmin said:

griffter said:

neal1980 said:

Im just about to do a body off, is there anything I can do to stop this happenning why its all in pieces rather than fit the kit. Like thicker cables etc? It happened to me twice and its always when you have a bird in the car!!!

I thought this problem was caused by the starter solenoid being switched directly from the key, instead of via a relay? Using a relay (correctly sited without unnecessarily long wires) means less voltage loss at the solenoid, hence more positive operation of the solenoid even when suffering from heat.
In which case, all you need to do is suitably install a relay in the solenoid circuit. Mines behind the dash where it can't be hotwired...

Correct & we normally fit a heat reflective blanket around the starter to deflect the exhaust manifold heat.

This problem has usually been associated with the Rover V8 engines but recently we have had a few Cerbera AJP8 suffering the same problem so we have applied the same mod & there have been no further issues on these cars

Richard
Austec Racing

Isn't there two schools of thought regarding wrapping insulation around the starter motor Richard;

On the one hand it helps to prevent heat radiating to it but on the other hand, when stationary the starter acts like a heat soak and in that situation the insulation prevents that heat from escaping? Wouldn't it be better to have a heat deflector (CliveF Special) and allow free air flow around the starter?

Edited by Bluebottle on Tuesday 8th July 18:13

It is the heat transfer from the exhaust manifold, which can reach approx 1000C, which you are trying to combat. The heat transfer from the engine block into the starter is relatively low & well within the design capability of the starter so wrapping it has little effect on the overall temperature.

Whilst driving the engine block is being cooled by the volume of air so again the heat transfer into the starter drops accordingly. To give you some idea of the volume of air passing over the engine the theory is that you do not need cooling fans unless you drop below 30mph.

Anything that deflects the heat from the manifolds will work, I have seen a couple of cars where the manifolds themselves have been wrapped which also helps with the under bonnet temperatures.

Richard

[Bodmin]

David Beer said:

Correct & we normally fit a heat reflective blanket around the starter to deflect the exhaust manifold heat.

This problem has usually been associated with the Rover V8 engines but recently we have had a few Cerbera AJP8 suffering the same problem so we have applied the same mod & there have been no further issues on these cars

Richard
Austec Racing

So is a relay also used ? If you look at Cerbie threads, this is a problem solved with a relay correctly wired, ie not in the boot.

Yes, we do use the relay & fit it in the engine bay where it has the shortest possilbe route. This reduces the inherent power reduction of a wire running the length of the car. As I have said we have only carried out this on a few cars but we have not had any reported subsequent failures.

Richard

[FlipFlopGriff]

We've had the Griff 5 years and its used daily so I'd probably not bother with the heat shield. Going to replace it anyway and fit the hot start kit.
FFG

[RichB]

Thought I'd resurec this thread because my Griff has started to disply these symptoms during last year. It's going into Racing Green in a month's time for a service and some bits and pieces so I might get them to fit one of DB's Hot-Start kits. FFG did you fit yours and did it do the trick? Rich...