Replacing outriggers - question

[Barreti]

In all the pictures I've seen about replacing outriggers, they all seem to have been cut half way down the two cross members in the front and rear wheel arches.

Is this just because of ease of access for those not lifting the body?

I'm wondering if I need to plan to replace those down tubes or if I can just cut off the single one running along the sill which I know is going to be rotten. Or is it a case of having to cut back to find good metal to weld to (which sounds like I know what I'm talking about, which I don't!)

I mull and plan and cogetate for ages before actually getting to anything - so I apologise if this is a daft question or a bit premature.

[That Daddy]

Hi Ian,i would have thought it makes things easier from the point that you still have a reference to work from(angles etc) rather than cutting back to the ladder section in the middle and losing this, i suppose its out with the templates & tape measure if you did go all the way to the top of the join,i hopefully wont need to do this for a number of years,cant say thinking about it tickles my pickle either have you got this job in mind then?

Edited by That Daddy on Wednesday 24th September 15:19

[Barreti]

Yep, its my winter job That Daddy before the car goes to the menders to have its smashed in backside fixed and resprayed (guy ran into me at Le Mans, so its on him!)

I was wondering about cutting out the outrigger just at the corner where the flat plates are welded across rather than going half way or even all the way up the wheel arch tubes.

[AntonyJ]

Ian, not sure about your thoughts regarding the cost, but have you thought about just having your riggers replaced at Sportmotive?
No body lift,fully properly powder coated riggers and so on.
And one hell of a lot quicker.

Got to be worth thinking about.

But to answer your question, you really need to go back to good strong metal, the question is, how much surface pitting do you put up with?
One beauty of a body is that you can blast the metal and see what is good/bad.

Edited by AntonyJ on Wednesday 24th September 18:37

[Chad speed]

I replaced my outriggers a few months ago with stainless steel ones with the body on. Two points come to mind with the Sportomotive ones:
1. One of my outriggers was 15mm longer than the other so the angle the tubes from outrigger to the spine were different. The chassis was undamaged and left the factory like that (the mounting holes were spot on incidentally). So pre-made outriggers would have been useless.
2. I cut holes through the inner tub with a 40mm hole saw to weld the side of the tube closest to the body. I can see no way a complete weld can be done with the body on, without holes being cut(I have access to a variety of MIG and TIG sets and nothing comes close). Do Sportomotive cut holes when they fit them?
Good luck to those about to do it, mine were terrible with only 5% of the rusted holes visible before the outrigger was cut off.

[Barreti]

One quick and simple answer to your question about cost Antony - I'm a Yorkshireman. Nuff said?!

Chad Speed. You've replaced your outriggers and only posted 24 times on here. Get a grip man and give us the gory details. There's massive interest in anyones story who has done this themselves, come on, give us your thoughts and experiences. Please. Pretty Please

I should say I agree with something someone on here who will remain nameless in case of recriminations, said to me a while ago.
The outriggers could (should) be considered consumables. Let them rot to bits if they want to, they do bugger all anyway.

But I know one of mine is not in good health and its driving me nuts. It shouldn't, but it is. So it will get the treatment.

[T_Pot]

whats to stop you / us cutting the riggers off from the main chassis and reproducing them with new tube, using the old ones as templates, then refitting the lot as one piece and welding back to the main chassis?

[AntonyJ]

Chad speed said:

I replaced my outriggers a few months ago with stainless steel ones with the body on. Two points come to mind with the Sportomotive ones:
1. One of my outriggers was 15mm longer than the other so the angle the tubes from outrigger to the spine were different. The chassis was undamaged and left the factory like that (the mounting holes were spot on incidentally). So pre-made outriggers would have been useless.
2. I cut holes through the inner tub with a 40mm hole saw to weld the side of the tube closest to the body. I can see no way a complete weld can be done with the body on, without holes being cut(I have access to a variety of MIG and TIG sets and nothing comes close). Do Sportomotive cut holes when they fit them?
Good luck to those about to do it, mine were terrible with only 5% of the rusted holes visible before the outrigger was cut off.

The mounting holes would always be spot on, there were probably drilled with the body in place!
This is what I did when I put my body back on.

[Chad speed]

AntonyJ said:

Chad speed said:

I replaced my outriggers a few months ago with stainless steel ones with the body on. Two points come to mind with the Sportomotive ones:
1. One of my outriggers was 15mm longer than the other so the angle the tubes from outrigger to the spine were different. The chassis was undamaged and left the factory like that (the mounting holes were spot on incidentally). So pre-made outriggers would have been useless.
2. I cut holes through the inner tub with a 40mm hole saw to weld the side of the tube closest to the body. I can see no way a complete weld can be done with the body on, without holes being cut(I have access to a variety of MIG and TIG sets and nothing comes close). Do Sportomotive cut holes when they fit them?
Good luck to those about to do it, mine were terrible with only 5% of the rusted holes visible before the outrigger was cut off.

The mounting holes would always be spot on, there were probably drilled with the body in place!
This is what I did when I put my body back on.

I agree the body was probably drilled in place using the outrigger holes as a jig, what I meant was the holes in the outriggers were in identical positions relative to each other and the main chassis. I was a little concerned at the outrigger discrepancy so I used the time honored method of checking things by dropping plumb line spots on to the floor and triangulating the positions. I assume the factory chassis jig used the holes as the datum and the tubes merely joined up the holes.

[Uncle Fester]

Chad speed said:

I replaced my outriggers a few months ago with stainless steel ones with the body on. Two points come to mind with the Sportomotive ones:
1. One of my outriggers was 15mm longer than the other so the angle the tubes from outrigger to the spine were different. The chassis was undamaged and left the factory like that (the mounting holes were spot on incidentally). So pre-made outriggers would have been useless.
2. I cut holes through the inner tub with a 40mm hole saw to weld the side of the tube closest to the body. I can see no way a complete weld can be done with the body on, without holes being cut(I have access to a variety of MIG and TIG sets and nothing comes close). Do Sportomotive cut holes when they fit them?
Good luck to those about to do it, mine were terrible with only 5% of the rusted holes visible before the outrigger was cut off.

You’re the first person that I have seen posting that they have done this in Stainless Steel.

IMHO, Stainless is the way to go. Tell us about any difference using Stainless made.

Tube sizes the same?

Much difference in cost?

[Chad speed]

Uncle Fester said:

Chad speed said:

I replaced my outriggers a few months ago with stainless steel ones with the body on. Two points come to mind with the Sportomotive ones:
1. One of my outriggers was 15mm longer than the other so the angle the tubes from outrigger to the spine were different. The chassis was undamaged and left the factory like that (the mounting holes were spot on incidentally). So pre-made outriggers would have been useless.
2. I cut holes through the inner tub with a 40mm hole saw to weld the side of the tube closest to the body. I can see no way a complete weld can be done with the body on, without holes being cut(I have access to a variety of MIG and TIG sets and nothing comes close). Do Sportomotive cut holes when they fit them?
Good luck to those about to do it, mine were terrible with only 5% of the rusted holes visible before the outrigger was cut off.

You’re the first person that I have seen posting that they have done this in Stainless Steel.

IMHO, Stainless is the way to go. Tell us about any difference using Stainless made.


Tube sizes the same?

Much difference in cost?

The original tubes are 1.5" outside diameter tubing with a 1.5mm wall thickness, the same tube is available in stainless steel with a 1.65mm wall. I used grade 316L ASME BPE tube but the critical thing is to get the dissimilar welding done properly in the right environment. I fabricated the replacement outriggers at home to specifically suit the chassis and then cut an inch of each mating end. The lads at work (geniuses in welding stainless, hastelloy, inconel, monel, titanium, tantalum etc)then welded mild steel inch long stubbs back on. I then did the under car mild steel to mild steel welding with the trusty MIG. There were some concerns on a thread before I did it by people not familiar with engineering about stainless steel cracking, I have designed, engineered and fabricated with stainless steel for 20 years and have no concerns at all with stainless steel in this application. Cost wise I have no idea as the material was surplus (no really) but I would estimate for materials alone mild steel would be in the region of £40 and Stainless £125. I have pictures but cant make the damn photobucket thing work. If someone wants to e-mail me I can send them if they could post them. Alternatively come to sunny Horsham and have a look.

[That Daddy]

well done than man,i could never see stainless steel being a problem in that area even if it was prone to cracking or not,its hardly a stressed region,well the seat belt does come of it

[sportmotive]

Lads, just to reiterate a few points, when fitting our complete jig formed outriggers, you DO NOT need to cut any holes in your bodyshell( heaven forbid!), they CAN be welded on with the body in situ ie. you dont have to take it off or even lift it 2" you simply cut your old ones off at the main chassis, offer up the new ones, mark and drill the fixing points for the body (our outriggers come without any holes in the mounting plates), fit them up, bolt them on and then weld them to the chassis. The only points where you have difficulty in welding them on in terms of space is the middle inner body mounting point, this is solved by welding this plate on last once you have completely welded the tube to the chassis and then the rear tube which comes up at 45 degree angle from the rear most corner of the outrigger up to the pick up point for the top wishbone and shocker mount, this tube needs to be cut short about 2" from the top and welded to the original tube using an inner dowl (supplied) and then fully welding the join. They can be fitted in a day. We charge £995 per pair (supply only) including VAT, this costs takes into account material cost, investment in the jig to make them, welding materials used, powder coating costs and of course labour content involved in measuring, cutting, fitting together and welding up the tubes so we reckon they are a bargain. Certain deals may be available for folding beer vouchers rather than plastic which cannot obviously be discussed on a public forum so contact us directly for further details.

[Chad speed]

sportmotive said:

Lads, just to reiterate a few points, when fitting our complete jig formed outriggers, you DO NOT need to cut any holes in your bodyshell( heaven forbid!), they CAN be welded on with the body in situ ie. you dont have to take it off or even lift it 2" you simply cut your old ones off at the main chassis, offer up the new ones, mark and drill the fixing points for the body (our outriggers come without any holes in the mounting plates), fit them up, bolt them on and then weld them to the chassis. The only points where you have difficulty in welding them on in terms of space is the middle inner body mounting point, this is solved by welding this plate on last once you have completely welded the tube to the chassis and then the rear tube which comes up at 45 degree angle from the rear most corner of the outrigger up to the pick up point for the top wishbone and shocker mount, this tube needs to be cut short about 2" from the top and welded to the original tube using an inner dowl (supplied) and then fully welding the join. They can be fitted in a day. We charge £995 per pair (supply only) including VAT, this costs takes into account material cost, investment in the jig to make them, welding materials used, powder coating costs and of course labour content involved in measuring, cutting, fitting together and welding up the tubes so we reckon they are a bargain. Certain deals may be available for folding beer vouchers rather than plastic which cannot obviously be discussed on a public forum so contact us directly for further details.

If you can get to the tubes all round to weld them then I salute you, I didn't consider replacing the outrigger right back to the spine. Regarding cutting holes in the tub, I have no problem with it so long as a minimum sized hole saw is used and the holes glassed back up (I even went to the trouble of using black gel coat). I have seen photos of large square holes being cut with a jigsaw and would avoid that route at all costs.

[Uncle Fester]

sportmotive said:

Lads, just to reiterate a few points, when fitting our complete jig formed outriggers, you DO NOT need to cut any holes in your bodyshell( heaven forbid!), they CAN be welded on with the body in situ ie. you dont have to take it off or even lift it 2" you simply cut your old ones off at the main chassis, offer up the new ones, mark and drill the fixing points for the body (our outriggers come without any holes in the mounting plates), fit them up, bolt them on and then weld them to the chassis. The only points where you have difficulty in welding them on in terms of space is the middle inner body mounting point, this is solved by welding this plate on last once you have completely welded the tube to the chassis and then the rear tube which comes up at 45 degree angle from the rear most corner of the outrigger up to the pick up point for the top wishbone and shocker mount, this tube needs to be cut short about 2" from the top and welded to the original tube using an inner dowl (supplied) and then fully welding the join. They can be fitted in a day. We charge £995 per pair (supply only) including VAT, this costs takes into account material cost, investment in the jig to make them, welding materials used, powder coating costs and of course labour content involved in measuring, cutting, fitting together and welding up the tubes so we reckon they are a bargain. Certain deals may be available for folding beer vouchers rather than plastic which cannot obviously be discussed on a public forum so contact us directly for further details.

But do you offer them in Stainless Steel? Frankly, I can’t see why anyone would fit replacement mild steel outriggers.

After looking at the cost of waxoyl for the estimated remaining life of my outriggers, it would be cheaper to leave them alone and fit Stainless when they do go.

I know my limitations, and wouldn’t attempt to weld Stainless to mild steel. What I will be seeking is a professional job. I would insist upon a company with experience of this mixed metal welding.

Personally, I would have more confidence in a job that cut holes to give better access. Many years ago I was a manager for a powerboat company. I know enough of glassfibre to be happy with the cut and re-glassfibre method. I would be more dubious of a job done with poor access.

I have also heard that some people add metal strips to the outriggers that the seat bolts pass through, particularly on race cars. This sounds sensible. Does anyone have a picture of how this hooks up to the chassis?

I would want to add these in stainless while we were doing the job.

[GreenV8S]

Uncle Fester said:

I have also heard that some people add metal strips to the outriggers that the seat bolts pass through, particularly on race cars. This sounds sensible. Does anyone have a picture of how this hooks up to the chassis?

They run parallel to the center line of the car, clamping to the cross members in front and behind the seat.

[Uncle Fester]

Clamped?

So I could have them put in at any time?

I never feel comfortable with idea of the seats, and therefore the seat belts only being bolted through glassfibre.

I can’t do anything about the top shoulder mount, but to have the seat only into glass seems asking for trouble in a big crash.

[HRG]

Uncle Fester said:

Clamped?

So I could have them put in at any time?

I never feel comfortable with idea of the seats, and therefore the seat belts only being bolted through glassfibre.

I can’t do anything about the top shoulder mount, but to have the seat only into glass seems asking for trouble in a big crash.

Someone used to make them but I can't remember who... I'd really like a set before the roll bar goes in.

[tom's dad]

I am in the last days of putting mine back together after a complete dismantle, outrigger replacement, sand blast and nylon coat. The outriggers were very badly corroded and at both ends were holed and breaking up. The heavy corrosion extended about 50mm into the incoming tubes and were in good condition at about 100mm. Mine were diagonally welded at the mid point of all tubes. The rest of the chassis was in sound condition and retained a good powder coating generally, but some areas were heavily surface rusted. I have about 500 photographs documenting the process and will be posting a selection of them in some form in the near future.

Graham.

[Hoover.]

tom's dad said:

I am in the last days of putting mine back together after a complete dismantle, outrigger replacement, sand blast and nylon coat. The outriggers were very badly corroded and at both ends were holed and breaking up. The heavy corrosion extended about 50mm into the incoming tubes and were in good condition at about 100mm. Mine were diagonally welded at the mid point of all tubes. The rest of the chassis was in sound condition and retained a good powder coating generally, but some areas were heavily surface rusted. I have about 500 photographs documenting the process and will be posting a selection of them in some form in the near future.

Graham.

ohhhh ......... can I have peek at how bad it was ..... :rubberneckinglook: