Buyers guide and prices
Discussion
Hi,
Does anybody have a link to a good buyers guide for the Griff?
And/or can anyone explain the key features of the various models? One which I'm particularly tempted by is the 4.3 - are they all big valve engines or is the 4.3BV a special edition? Is it fair to say the 500s command a somewhat higher price? (If I was to get one, I think 4.3 litres would be more than enough, coming from a V6 S, and I'd rather have the cash to get a mint example.)
Anything particularly to look for? (Outriggers I presume?
)
Cheers,
Chris
Does anybody have a link to a good buyers guide for the Griff?
And/or can anyone explain the key features of the various models? One which I'm particularly tempted by is the 4.3 - are they all big valve engines or is the 4.3BV a special edition? Is it fair to say the 500s command a somewhat higher price? (If I was to get one, I think 4.3 litres would be more than enough, coming from a V6 S, and I'd rather have the cash to get a mint example.)
Anything particularly to look for? (Outriggers I presume?
)Cheers,
Chris
Chris71 said:
Hi,
Does anybody have a link to a good buyers guide for the Griff?
And/or can anyone explain the key features of the various models? One which I'm particularly tempted by is the 4.3 - are they all big valve engines or is the 4.3BV a special edition? Is it fair to say the 500s command a somewhat higher price? (If I was to get one, I think 4.3 litres would be more than enough, coming from a V6 S, and I'd rather have the cash to get a mint example.)
Anything particularly to look for? (Outriggers I presume?)
Cheers,
Chris
There's masses of this in past threads, but in a nutshell:Does anybody have a link to a good buyers guide for the Griff?
And/or can anyone explain the key features of the various models? One which I'm particularly tempted by is the 4.3 - are they all big valve engines or is the 4.3BV a special edition? Is it fair to say the 500s command a somewhat higher price? (If I was to get one, I think 4.3 litres would be more than enough, coming from a V6 S, and I'd rather have the cash to get a mint example.)
Anything particularly to look for? (Outriggers I presume?
)Cheers,
Chris
Buyer's guide: http://www.thegriffithpages.com/buyers-guide.html
4.0 : Rover box, no rear anti-roll bar, no cats
4.3 : as 4.0 but a bit torquier and hence a bit more powerful
4.3BV: as 4.3 but even revvier and more powerful. Very few original factory cars, several aftermarket converted cars
5.0 : Early cars have Rover box, later cars (94->) Borg Warner T5 (stronger, different feel to the shift), all catted, all big valves, all have rear anti-roll bar
This thread will inevitably descend into a good-humoured precat vs 5 litre debate, but suffice it to say each model has its proponents. I owned a 4.3 for 5 years, which I took up to 4.3 BV factory-spec. I never felt I bought the wrong model, I never wanted anybody else's car more than my own. The noise, revviness and characteristics of the precat make it the car it is. A 500 might be a 'better' car, but like for like they're not worth more, because precats have a character (and a following) all of their own.
Outriggers/chassis rot used to kill a Griff, but there are now ways and means to effect sensible cost-effective repairs e.g. Sportmotive's off-the-shelf outrigger: http://www.sportmotive.com/chassist.html
Better buy a car in good all round condition (body repairs are expensive) than get hung up on just the chassis these days. Having said that, if you buy a car 'needing work' be very sure you know what you're getting. Griffiths can be a bit like icebergs...
Good luck.
(And belated Merry Christmas to me old V8 mates
)Chris
Come and have a chat with me at the next Herts/Beds meet..... and I'm sure we'll get a selection of Griffs all together (next to each other) and talk you/show you the differences between the models...
Hoover
(hope fully my ribs and wrist will not be so bruised by then and I'll be driving the Griff)
Come and have a chat with me at the next Herts/Beds meet..... and I'm sure we'll get a selection of Griffs all together (next to each other) and talk you/show you the differences between the models...
Hoover
(hope fully my ribs and wrist will not be so bruised by then and I'll be driving the Griff)
Thanks for that, a great summary. But yes, it does lead to the 4.x Vs 5.0 debate!
As far as I can tell browsing the Griff Pages and Steve Heath FAQ guides, the chassis and suspension and drivetrain all evolved over the production run. Does that mean the 500s handle better?
I'm also conscious of the huge leap in power I'd be looking at going up from a 160hp S. Are the 500s any more difficult to drive (assuming you're vaguely sensible with the throttle)?
I guess the other big thing is power steering. I love the feel of the (unassisted) steering in the S, but I'm not keen on the 4+ turns lock-to-lock. I presume both setups are a lot more direct on the Griff, but does the PAS compromise feel at all?
How much difference does the later gearbox make? Similarly how much better is the later diff and when did they swap over?
Finally, kind of asked this elsewhere, but are there any previous V6 S owners who can describe the differences between the two (apart from the obvious!) The other option is still to fit Nitrons and bigger brakes to my S3.
Sorry, many questions.
As far as I can tell browsing the Griff Pages and Steve Heath FAQ guides, the chassis and suspension and drivetrain all evolved over the production run. Does that mean the 500s handle better?
I'm also conscious of the huge leap in power I'd be looking at going up from a 160hp S. Are the 500s any more difficult to drive (assuming you're vaguely sensible with the throttle)?
I guess the other big thing is power steering. I love the feel of the (unassisted) steering in the S, but I'm not keen on the 4+ turns lock-to-lock. I presume both setups are a lot more direct on the Griff, but does the PAS compromise feel at all?
How much difference does the later gearbox make? Similarly how much better is the later diff and when did they swap over?
Finally, kind of asked this elsewhere, but are there any previous V6 S owners who can describe the differences between the two (apart from the obvious!) The other option is still to fit Nitrons and bigger brakes to my S3.
Sorry, many questions.
Chris71 said:
Thanks for that, a great summary. But yes, it does lead to the 4.x Vs 5.0 debate!
As far as I can tell browsing the Griff Pages and Steve Heath FAQ guides, the chassis and suspension and drivetrain all evolved over the production run. Does that mean the 500s handle better?
The 500 gained the rear arb and different springs/shocks. Not many 4.x's will be on the original springs/shocks by now; those that are probably need changing. 500s also gained 'one piece' front wishbones but again most 4.x's will have these by now. There's a not a lot in it - the 500s were probably better handling from the factory, but a 4.x with properly set up Gaz will probably out-handle a factory 500. There were no great wishbone/geometry/chassis construction changes. Some precats have been retro fitted with a rear arb.As far as I can tell browsing the Griff Pages and Steve Heath FAQ guides, the chassis and suspension and drivetrain all evolved over the production run. Does that mean the 500s handle better?
Chris71 said:
I'm also conscious of the huge leap in power I'd be looking at going up from a 160hp S. Are the 500s any more difficult to drive (assuming you're vaguely sensible with the throttle)?
They're torquier, so it's easy to break traction the wet (same goes for 4.x's). They're all easy to drive though - loads of torque. What's harder is to drive quickly in the wet. Then you have engine breaking, torque overload and weight transfer to contend with. But hey - that's the fun!Chris71 said:
I guess the other big thing is power steering. I love the feel of the (unassisted) steering in the S, but I'm not keen on the 4+ turns lock-to-lock. I presume both setups are a lot more direct on the Griff, but does the PAS compromise feel at all?
How much difference does the later gearbox make? Similarly how much better is the later diff and when did they swap over?
I'm not alone in preferring the LT77 shift - its mechanical action is enjoyable and reassuring. Having said that the T5 isn't the last word in refinement. Each has its weaknesses. T5 reckoned to be stronger. Hoover has has a T5 implant in his Griff, so his comments would be interesting.How much difference does the later gearbox make? Similarly how much better is the later diff and when did they swap over?
Chris71 said:
Finally, kind of asked this elsewhere, but are there any previous V6 S owners who can describe the differences between the two (apart from the obvious!) The other option is still to fit Nitrons and bigger brakes to my S3.
Sorry, many questions.
Sorry, many questions.
The problem with the S-Series steering is just that it's something like 4 turns lock-to-lock. If the rear end lets go in a big way you end up frantically scrabbling to put enough lock on to catch it, because it's such a slow rack.
(On the upside, it has some of the best feedback I've ever encountered...)
But Griff-wise, the question was more whether or not the PAS sacrifises any feedback? Is there much difference in communication to the non-assisted system?
PS Hoover - would very much like to take you up on that. When's the next meet? Bit tied up over the next few weekends with the Autosport show, but if it's towards the end of the month I'll be there. Did make one of them (well, the South Mimms pre-meet), but other than that I've been a bit crap!
(On the upside, it has some of the best feedback I've ever encountered...)
But Griff-wise, the question was more whether or not the PAS sacrifises any feedback? Is there much difference in communication to the non-assisted system?
PS Hoover - would very much like to take you up on that. When's the next meet? Bit tied up over the next few weekends with the Autosport show, but if it's towards the end of the month I'll be there. Did make one of them (well, the South Mimms pre-meet), but other than that I've been a bit crap!
Edited by Chris71 on Tuesday 30th December 21:44
The PAS cars were originally specified with wider front tyres than non PAS cars.
By the time you have played around with tyre pressure and tyre choice, you can tailor the feel to your taste anyway.
The PAS rack is a TVR special part. They can be rebuilt, but if you damaged the rack body itself then you could find problems locating a used rack. All together, there is simply less to maintain without PAS.
Having said all that, I have PAS and prefer it.
By the time you have played around with tyre pressure and tyre choice, you can tailor the feel to your taste anyway.
The PAS rack is a TVR special part. They can be rebuilt, but if you damaged the rack body itself then you could find problems locating a used rack. All together, there is simply less to maintain without PAS.
Having said all that, I have PAS and prefer it.
Simple sounds good.
There seems to be a considerable variation in prices for cars of ostensibly the same condition - what is it that you pay for? Are there any particularly desirable models or production years and can anyone suggest a guide price? Has to be said, some of the most expensive S-Series I looked at were actually the roughest examples.
There seems to be a considerable variation in prices for cars of ostensibly the same condition - what is it that you pay for? Are there any particularly desirable models or production years and can anyone suggest a guide price? Has to be said, some of the most expensive S-Series I looked at were actually the roughest examples.
Chris,
I went from an S3C to a new Griff 500 back in 99 and found the non-PAS of the Griff much easier on the arms than the S, though before finalising the spec' of my car I tested a PAS car (a Chimaera being as the dealer didn't have a PAS Griff in stock) and didn't like it, I felt it had too much assistance. Personal choice I suppose, Steve Heath was always quick to point out that the Tuscan races all had PAS so if it was OK for the racers then it must be beter... I prefer mine without and have never regretted not ordering it, also you will find that the majority of Griff's are without PAS (unlike Chimaera where I reckon it's 50/50) - As for driving the car, the Griff is much more refined than the S so you should find it easier to drive but as has been said, just don't plant you boot on the throttle as you exit a roundabout, well not at least until you've had it a while and done some track days where you can "explore" the cars characteristics of adhesion. Note that the PAS has a 2.2 turns lock to lock rack as opposed to the non PAS cars which have 2.7 so it's not a direct comparison. Mine is a 500 with a few ACT induction parts, a sportier cam, one of Mark Adams chips, no pre-cats and few other bits and bobs and it sounds great and goes like stink! I reckon the whole pre-cat vs' cat discussion was just stired up by pre-cat owners wanting to compensate for their lack of 700 c.c.'s
I went from an S3C to a new Griff 500 back in 99 and found the non-PAS of the Griff much easier on the arms than the S, though before finalising the spec' of my car I tested a PAS car (a Chimaera being as the dealer didn't have a PAS Griff in stock) and didn't like it, I felt it had too much assistance. Personal choice I suppose, Steve Heath was always quick to point out that the Tuscan races all had PAS so if it was OK for the racers then it must be beter... I prefer mine without and have never regretted not ordering it, also you will find that the majority of Griff's are without PAS (unlike Chimaera where I reckon it's 50/50) - As for driving the car, the Griff is much more refined than the S so you should find it easier to drive but as has been said, just don't plant you boot on the throttle as you exit a roundabout, well not at least until you've had it a while and done some track days where you can "explore" the cars characteristics of adhesion. Note that the PAS has a 2.2 turns lock to lock rack as opposed to the non PAS cars which have 2.7 so it's not a direct comparison. Mine is a 500 with a few ACT induction parts, a sportier cam, one of Mark Adams chips, no pre-cats and few other bits and bobs and it sounds great and goes like stink! I reckon the whole pre-cat vs' cat discussion was just stired up by pre-cat owners wanting to compensate for their lack of 700 c.c.'s
Edited by RichB on Wednesday 31st December 12:05
Chris71 said:
Simple sounds good.
There seems to be a considerable variation in prices for cars of ostensibly the same condition - what is it that you pay for? Are there any particularly desirable models or production years and can anyone suggest a guide price? Has to be said, some of the most expensive S-Series I looked at were actually the roughest examples.
Exactly. Some owners' assessments of their cars condition are more realistic than others. I found the same with Elises. More often than not, asking price reflects owner's opinion rather than actual, relative, condition.There seems to be a considerable variation in prices for cars of ostensibly the same condition - what is it that you pay for? Are there any particularly desirable models or production years and can anyone suggest a guide price? Has to be said, some of the most expensive S-Series I looked at were actually the roughest examples.
It works the other way too - you try selling a genuinely excellent car and you get 'buyers' trying to get the price down without having seen the car because 'there's one in the same condition for less eslewhere'. You bave to buy a TVR on condition, and you have to view before you buy IMHO.
Having said that, some people favour originality, others value modifications. Some want low mileage, others are of the opinion that cars tnat get used give less trouble.
There are no particularly desirable years - except if you want a precat or a very late car. It's more about pre-serp / serp; LT77 vs T5 box and so on.
When you look at a few, you'll start to get a feel.
I went from an S2 to Griff 500 about 2 years ago.
Differences - the S is much more raw and you can explore it's limits on the road (legally) a lot easier.
The Griff is a much better put together car (except perhaps the glovebox). It feels a lot more planted on the road (as long as you aren't stupid with your right foot). The acceleration and power is just awesome and the handling pretty good even on the old suspension, though that is going to be replaced in the next month.
The exhaust on my (standard) 500 is a lot different to my old S. Several of the guys at work have commented that it is a lot quieter that the S. When I used to start up the S in the underground car park they all knew about it. It's a lovely V8 noise but not as throaty as my old V6. Mine has PAS and I have no problems with the feel, it also makes low speed manouvers into the garage very easy.
I love the Griff, it is a fantastic car and I love driving it, the power, the styling it all works for me. I still think the S is a great car but the Griff is my favourite (so far). I just need to sort that exhaust note, time to remove those precats I think.
I wouldn't get too hung up on specs - just find the one that talks to you. As with all TVRs you will know when you find the right one for you.
Differences - the S is much more raw and you can explore it's limits on the road (legally) a lot easier.
The Griff is a much better put together car (except perhaps the glovebox). It feels a lot more planted on the road (as long as you aren't stupid with your right foot). The acceleration and power is just awesome and the handling pretty good even on the old suspension, though that is going to be replaced in the next month.
The exhaust on my (standard) 500 is a lot different to my old S. Several of the guys at work have commented that it is a lot quieter that the S. When I used to start up the S in the underground car park they all knew about it. It's a lovely V8 noise but not as throaty as my old V6. Mine has PAS and I have no problems with the feel, it also makes low speed manouvers into the garage very easy.
I love the Griff, it is a fantastic car and I love driving it, the power, the styling it all works for me. I still think the S is a great car but the Griff is my favourite (so far). I just need to sort that exhaust note, time to remove those precats I think.
I wouldn't get too hung up on specs - just find the one that talks to you. As with all TVRs you will know when you find the right one for you.
Thanks gents. I'm far from decided yet, but I think I'll call round the local dealers to see what sort of part ex deal they could give me on the S3.
Are there any particularly expensive birthdays to look for - belts? clutches? dampers and suspension bushes?
Actually that does raise another point... I've seen quite a lot of Rover V8 TVRs advertising engine rebuilds, is there anything to watch for?
Are there any particularly expensive birthdays to look for - belts? clutches? dampers and suspension bushes?
Actually that does raise another point... I've seen quite a lot of Rover V8 TVRs advertising engine rebuilds, is there anything to watch for?
Chris71 said:
Thanks gents. I'm far from decided yet, but I think I'll call round the local dealers to see what sort of part ex deal they could give me on the S3.
Don't get your hopes up Chris71 said:
Are there any particularly expensive birthdays to look for - belts? clutches? dampers and suspension bushes?
Not that I'm aware of, it's a single cam, push-rod design so no expensive cam belt changes to worry about.Chris71 said:
Actually that does raise another point... I've seen quite a lot of Rover V8 TVRs advertising engine rebuilds, is there anything to watch for?
Engine wise the main recurring theme seems to be cam-lobe wear meaning a replacement cam (and followers) - some view this as a chance for an upgrade. Incidentally the thinking on cam wear is that it's down to rev'ing the engine too hard before the oil is warm and leaving it idling for long periods. Apparently the followers are designed to rotate to avoid flat spots but they don't do so until about 2,000 revs.Edited by RichB on Wednesday 31st December 20:02
RichB said:
Chris71 said:
Thanks gents. I'm far from decided yet, but I think I'll call round the local dealers to see what sort of part ex deal they could give me on the S3.
Don't get your hopes up IMHO It's one of the best ones out there (I looked at six and it was in a different league to most) however the reason for this is it had a very thurough rebuild following a minor cosmetic shunt a few years ago. This means it's probably better than when it left the factory, but it has the dreaded Cat D hanging over it, which I can immagine will scare off dealers (and a good number of private buyers).
If people are talking about silly prices then I may have to look at a set of Nitrons, full geo setup and some bigger brakes for the S instead.
If people do thier homework a CAT D TVR is generally a safe buy as opposed to the CAT D Elise. Usually it's just a bodywork issue, where as on the Lotus it can mean a bent Chassis.
I came from a very good S3 to a modified Griff 400 and I'll echo the comments made:
The S is much more Raw and Go Kart like. You can push it more to it's limits on the road at sensible speeds.
The power delivery is very different. This could do with the way my car is set up, but the S always felt faster. You gave the throttle a shove and the car felt like it was going. The Griff, you just look at the speedo and find you ARE going faster.
As far as noise goes. The S is noiser on the Standard Exhaust, but as many V8s have the exhausts seleved now, that it personal preference. I prefer the ACT Cherry Bomb system. But then I had a custom system on my S3. The V6 will never give the V8 burble.
As far as build quality goes, it is down to individual cars.
I think the S3 has a better longivity for the Engine. Mine was on 90k, and everything was original. The only thing I replaced was the dreaded down pipes, the hoses and the coil..
The Griff has just had a new Clutch and diff bushes at 45k. Mind you mine isn't standard, possibly the standard ones last longer.
My suggestion would be to drive a few and see how you like them. They can be very different car to car.
I came from a very good S3 to a modified Griff 400 and I'll echo the comments made:
The S is much more Raw and Go Kart like. You can push it more to it's limits on the road at sensible speeds.
The power delivery is very different. This could do with the way my car is set up, but the S always felt faster. You gave the throttle a shove and the car felt like it was going. The Griff, you just look at the speedo and find you ARE going faster.
As far as noise goes. The S is noiser on the Standard Exhaust, but as many V8s have the exhausts seleved now, that it personal preference. I prefer the ACT Cherry Bomb system. But then I had a custom system on my S3. The V6 will never give the V8 burble.
As far as build quality goes, it is down to individual cars.
I think the S3 has a better longivity for the Engine. Mine was on 90k, and everything was original. The only thing I replaced was the dreaded down pipes, the hoses and the coil..
The Griff has just had a new Clutch and diff bushes at 45k. Mind you mine isn't standard, possibly the standard ones last longer.
My suggestion would be to drive a few and see how you like them. They can be very different car to car.
Just spoke to a very helpful guy at the Offord Motor Company (in regards to this car as it happens: http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/679028.htm) and I got the impression I was being a tad optimistic about trade in values for the S, but they said they were always keen to sell TVRs. If I do make the switch, then a known specialist dealer willing to do a straight part-exchange with my old car would be a major advantage.
Interesting comment about the S feeling faster. While I wouldn't mind a little more overtaking poke, on the whole I prefer a car that feels like you're doing 100mph at 50, to one which feels like you're only doing 50mph when you're doing 100. Both my life and license seem likely to last longer that way.
Noise-wise, I'm sure the Griffith is still far from dull.
One very slight issue I have with the V6-powered S is, while I love the noise personally, it sometimes feels a little bit over the top for a car which is 'only' hot hatch pace these days.
As far as the Cat D goes, I used to be an automotive engineer and I'm confident I've got a good example (very clean underneath, laser chassis alignment confirms it's at least as straight as most left the shop, and then there's a recent respray...) However, I know not everybody feels the same way.
Think the first step is to compare notes with a few local(ish) dealers. I've got Offord and The TVR Centre (aka Trimar) on my list - any other suggestions for the North London/Herts area?
Interesting comment about the S feeling faster. While I wouldn't mind a little more overtaking poke, on the whole I prefer a car that feels like you're doing 100mph at 50, to one which feels like you're only doing 50mph when you're doing 100. Both my life and license seem likely to last longer that way.
Noise-wise, I'm sure the Griffith is still far from dull.
One very slight issue I have with the V6-powered S is, while I love the noise personally, it sometimes feels a little bit over the top for a car which is 'only' hot hatch pace these days.
As far as the Cat D goes, I used to be an automotive engineer and I'm confident I've got a good example (very clean underneath, laser chassis alignment confirms it's at least as straight as most left the shop, and then there's a recent respray...) However, I know not everybody feels the same way.
Think the first step is to compare notes with a few local(ish) dealers. I've got Offord and The TVR Centre (aka Trimar) on my list - any other suggestions for the North London/Herts area?
Edited by Chris71 on Friday 2nd January 11:27
Chris71 said:
Just spoke to a very helpful guy at the Offord Motor Company (in regards to this car as it happens: http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/679028.htm) and I got the impression I was being a tad optimistic about trade in values for the S, but they said they were always keen to sell TVRs. If I do make the switch, then a known specialist dealer willing to do a straight part-exchange with my old car would be a major advantage.
But you will always lose shedloads, because you will get a bottom price for your car and a top price on the car you're buying. That's what dealers live on. It depends on what's more important to you - simply signing a bit of paper and walking out with the new keys, or losing several thousand pounds.Chris71 said:
Just spoke to a very helpful guy at the Offord Motor Company........
Chris don't forget it wasn't long ago that Offords sold that white V8S for £4995.However this could indicate they were desperate for a bit of cashflow so the flipside is you might be in a stronger position than you think - though I doubt it!
I ended up taking a 4-litre Chimera out today (I know, I know - how will I face telling my parents ). I prefered the lower more S-like seating position (the Griff seems to be a bit higher?) and I'm told they're basically identical to the Griff to drive(?)
Compared to the S3, I loved the engine and gearbox (so damn smooth!), the more solid feel and the better brakes. But the performance increase wasn't as dramatic as expected, the PAS steering was a little light and, while it felt nice and direct, it was also a bit imprecise when pressing on over undulating ground. Might just be unfamiliar with PAS of course.
Would the equivilant Griff feel roughly the same, or is there more to it than that?
). I prefered the lower more S-like seating position (the Griff seems to be a bit higher?) and I'm told they're basically identical to the Griff to drive(?)Compared to the S3, I loved the engine and gearbox (so damn smooth!), the more solid feel and the better brakes. But the performance increase wasn't as dramatic as expected, the PAS steering was a little light and, while it felt nice and direct, it was also a bit imprecise when pressing on over undulating ground. Might just be unfamiliar with PAS of course.
Would the equivilant Griff feel roughly the same, or is there more to it than that?
Barkychoc said:
Chris don't forget it wasn't long ago that Offords sold that white V8S for £4995.
However this could indicate they were desperate for a bit of cashflow so the flipside is you might be in a stronger position than you think - though I doubt it!
I was actually pleasantly surprised by the trade-in estimate they gave for the S3. They reckoned it was indeed a very good example, despite its history. Their forecourt prices seem more realistic than some dealerships too, although of course it's difficult to tell from an ad how the condition of the cars at other dealers would compare.However this could indicate they were desperate for a bit of cashflow so the flipside is you might be in a stronger position than you think - though I doubt it!
Edited by Chris71 on Saturday 3rd January 19:14
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