spring ratings needed

[FlipFlopGriff]

Getting some rear Nitrons refurbed as one side has collapsed (not sure if spring or damper). Been on the 500 for over 4 years with daily use so no complaints. Currently got the Nitron springs but going for the upgrade to Eibach and want to know what ratings I should go for. Daily use with a few spritted weekend runs, no track days. Don't want a jaw breaking ride. Standard road use recommended by Nitron is 250 rear but have seen up to 325 on here. Would 275 be a safe bet or should we go 300? Also what would you recommend for the front as will do them next.
FFG

[Chimjunkie]

Hi FFG,

I currently run 400F/325R which give great handling on Nitrons. Indeed 325F/275R is standard but i felt it was too soft and caused excessive body roll. I am about to order Eibachs tomorrow in 475F/400R! I still get too much dive, lift and roll with the 400/325 combo. Will be a hard ride though...

Jon

[2Munkys]

Have a word with these guys Paul:

http://www.dfaulknersprings.co.uk/

I recently got some springs from them after a chat.

I'd guess you'd have to check that your current dampers have enough valve adjusment to cope with 400/325 springs; I'm sure they have. 400/325 seems to be the flavour at the moment though. For me, I think they're a bit OTT for our crappy road surfaces when really you need something more complient. Overly stiff springs will exaggerate the Griff's choppy ride over a poor road surface. Some measure of compromise is perhaps what you're looking for.

To reduce the roll, fitting some uprated ARB brackets and drop links should improve things.

Unfortunately theres not much anti dive/squat that can be designed into the double wishbone configuration so I guess you're limited to stiffening the springs to reduce that . . . . if it's a problem to ya.

That's how I see it; there are plenty out there with more experience/knowledge than I.

Bruce

[Chimjunkie]

2Munkys said:

I'd guess you'd have to check that your current dampers have enough valve adjusment to cope with 400/325 springs; I'm sure they have. 400/325 seems to be the flavour at the moment though. For me, I think they're a bit OTT for our crappy road surfaces when really you need something more complient. Overly stiff springs will exaggerate the Griff's choppy ride over a poor road surface. Some measure of compromise is perhaps what you're looking for.

Spoke with the tech guy at Nitron Racing the other day about the valving. If you have the older (1year+) units then the valving is ok. Maybe borderline on new units. I find the 400/325 combination with Nitron shocks absolutely excellent at taking the british country roads and complying with the road, Handling wise. Comfort wise is down to the individual

[FlipFlopGriff]

The 500 has Steve Heath drop links, and a roll bar so would 325 be OK for daily use by Mrs FFG. The units are 4+ years old so are the older type but going in for a refresh. Not sent off yet, got some squeeky Gaz's on at the mo (replaced set).
FFG

[Pasco]

I think you will be fine Paul

I'm running 450 front 375 rear but TCS and Nitron had them valved to suit but again the ride is fantastic and bearing in mind if you up grade you brakes and increase hp you will need heavier springs to cope with a more vigorous acceleration and deceleration

HTH

[2Munkys]

Meant to add that my Griff is currently sitting on 375/325 springs (were 400/325).

And I guess you've got to consider the wheels/tyres your using; if you lower the aspect ratio then more of the bump energy will be transmitted to a Flip Flop Butt rather than being partially absorbed in the tyre. Think you have something standard if I remember correctly.

If you have just the drop-links then you're half way there but, the brackets the ARB's are held in encompass a rather large lump of soft rubber. For less than £30 it may be worth beefing this area up with something harder. Just my thoughts.

[Uncle Fester]

I'm running Nitron 400/325 as well.

Although tyre aspect matters, unsprung mass matters more.

I changed from Estorill's to all 17" Toyota TR1 tyres and Pro Race 1.2 wheels without changing anything else.

The comfort improved greatly, the handling was better too.

The ride previously was a little harsh and I wouldn't have wanted to go harder.

There are still one or two local bends that can outwit them. A combination of downhill/turn/uphill very much like Paddock Hill Bend at Brands Hatch, only with more sudden changes. This can cause the exhaust tailpipe to briefly kiss tarmac as the rear loads up, (if you're trying).

When when mine needs doing, I'm going to look into duel rate springs. Two springs on each shock. The soft one compresses first giving a soft ride. When fully compressed, it's coil bound, transferring all the force directly onto the other, much stiffer spring.

It's supposed to be the best of both comfort and handling.

Anyone tried it, or know anything about it?

[Chimjunkie]

No, but im

[spend]

You mean like this?

Just happen to be the folks I got accumulators from

I think you may need damper bodies designed especially to do the job properly, small helper springs wont achieve quite the same effect I reckon. You can get progressive single springs, try talking to a spring manufacturer.

[hiltonig]

yep i have just changed my nitron springs and got a shock ( ok there a pun ), the rears were only 250 and 1 inch shorter than the fronts, now have 350 front,300 rear gone for the eibach ones.

[spend]

2Munkys said:

Meant to add that my Griff is currently sitting on 375/325 springs (were 400/325).

TBH thats the first time I can recall someone trying stronger springs and not wishing they had tried them yet even stronger?

I found most of the choppy ride was recoil from the springs, personally prefering the odd 'crash/bang' jolt to a slowly diminishing 'boi-boi-boi-boing' sea-sickness You need to be very precise in identifying whether it is the 'shock' or the 'tremors' which is more discomforting (to person & handling..) IMHO?

[Uncle Fester]

That’s the kind of thing Eibach version

I didn’t know I might need special bodies, though. When the time comes, I will research it properly. Are there any downsides to double or progressive springs?

Would they give an improvement over a fixed rate single?

[Ab Shocks]

The reason a lot of people go for Eibach is because they are made from silicon chrome which gives more consistant rates and they are lighter.
BTW, Faukners make Nitron standard springs and they are very good.
I don't know why Nitron put 325/250lb springs on Chim/Griffs and 400/325lb springs on everything else apart fom the Saggy, I think it goes back to when they first started up and they copied the Bilstein rates.

Anyway, 400/325lb works very well on Nitron on Chims and Griffs and for the more track focused, 450/375lb was always the limit on standard valving but I would check to make sure that was still the case.

I have just talked Gaz into stocking a range of silicon chrome springs from a very good company called European springs and they are competative (as long as you buy 100 of each rate) so Gaz are only stocking fast movers at the moment.
But half the price of Eibach.

[spend]

Uncle Fester said:

Are there any downsides to double or progressive springs?

In my mind the only advantage is stopping springs that are too short having 0 preload and clanking at full droop? 99% of the time a helper spring will be coil bound. Engineered multiple springs with relatively long equal lengths and not too dissimilar rates seem an awful lot of effort + expense and then the learning curve / dev effort to find suitable rates would seem something of a challenge? The possibilities grow exponentially with permutations of rates available and exponentially again with combinations of lengths....

Seems to me that these multi-springed initiatives have been made for long travel off roading / trialling, I'm not wholly convinced of the benefits in a car with a relatively small suspension travel?

[GreenV8S]

spend said:

Uncle Fester said:

Are there any downsides to double or progressive springs?

In my mind the only advantage is stopping springs that are too short having 0 preload and clanking at full droop?

There are two very different types of setup, although they look similar.

Helper springs are soft springs that go in series with the main spring and just stop it coming off the spring seats in droop. As soon as there's any weight on the they collapse and leave you running on the main spring.

Tender springs are stiff springs that are designed to extend in droop, softening the suspension in droop. The result is a spring that is softer in droop and stiffer in bump. The S series originally came with springs that had varying gaps which had a similar effect as the spring became progressively more coil bound. Having a rising rate means that you can afford more droop travel and a softer ride, for a given total energy absorption capability. The energy absorption is effectively a measure of how much vertical momentum the suspension can absorb without bottoming out.

[Ab Shocks]

spend said:

Seems to me that these multi-springed initiatives have been made for long travel off roading / trialling, I'm not wholly convinced of the benefits in a car with a relatively small suspension travel?

Absolutely agree, multi springs are good on cars with big struts but not on Tivs and helper springs are only good to get over spring dislocation and MOT stations moaning.

[HRG]

What about rising rate springs a'la bike?

[Chimjunkie]

Derek, would there be any point to me getting eibach springs over the std Nitron units when i increase my spring rates? Car use is fast road, occasional trackday..

[Mark (UB)]

I run Nitrons 600 f 450 r at mo, mostly use car for TDs though.